Skills could offer better results, shorter action times, that sort of thing.
It might sound odd but this is what I'd like see is separating "health" into two mechanics: 1)Combat Effectiveness meter 2) Injury System
Injury system is what we commonly see as individual body part damage, take a look at Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, there are different types of injuries that require different types of treatment.
The idea is that when you take damage you suffer an injury (and loss of combat effectiveness as a result): what I'd like to see is multi stage injury that reduces your Combat effectiveness (That's how I normally see a life bar in games) and give bigger and bigger penalties to skills (dependent on the injury type). When you take an injury there isn't much you can or should be able to do in the field. That's what we have doctors for. However you should be able to temporarily remove the ill effects by use of "items" (Drugs, band aids,splint etc), injury stays and can get more severe even if your combat effectiveness is full, injury itself doesn't go away until "rested" - visited a doc, hid away at your place licking away your wounds and the like.
It's important to point out that a partial or a complete loss of combat effectiveness (as a side effect of a drug for example) doesn't mean injury or death but only lack of ability to fight.
Injury system is what we commonly see as individual body part damage, take a look at Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, there are different types of injuries that require different types of treatment.
The idea is that when you take damage you suffer an injury (and loss of combat effectiveness as a result): what I'd like to see is multi stage injury that reduces your Combat effectiveness (That's how I normally see a life bar in games) and give bigger and bigger penalties to skills (dependent on the injury type). When you take an injury there isn't much you can or should be able to do in the field. That's what we have doctors for. However you should be able to temporarily remove the ill effects by use of "items" (Drugs, band aids,splint etc), injury stays and can get more severe even if your combat effectiveness is full, injury itself doesn't go away until "rested" - visited a doc, hid away at your place licking away your wounds and the like.
It's important to point out that a partial or a complete loss of combat effectiveness (as a side effect of a drug for example) doesn't mean injury or death but only lack of ability to fight.
Cyberpunk 2020 has all that.
The PnP game incorporates hit locations with specific wound/kill rules, stun/shock saves, death saves, Death State and of course wound levels that affect skill performance.
It also has bleeding! And horrible healing times. And your hitpoints don't go up at all - everyone has the same health track. Different people handle damage differently due to inherent toughness, though, from stun saves to damage reduction.
http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/52-Online-CP2020-Resources
The PnP game incorporates hit locations with specific wound/kill rules, stun/shock saves, death saves, Death State and of course wound levels that affect skill performance.
It also has bleeding! And horrible healing times. And your hitpoints don't go up at all - everyone has the same health track. Different people handle damage differently due to inherent toughness, though, from stun saves to damage reduction.
http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/52-Online-CP2020-Resources
Rereading my post I might have missed the point that I was trying to make, 20% alcohol drinks do not improve my "written communication over the internet" skill as much as I thought.
Indeed as pointed out CP2020 (and many other systems for that matter) has injury system however what I meant and failed to explain was that not all damage causes an injury. That where combat effectiveness comes into play: it serves as a buffer and of course is affected by inherent toughness and the like. On top of it is regenerating to degree: the simplest way to explain it , think of life bar as multiple bars. If the bar is empty it doesn't regenerate but if it has some juice left during a break in a firefight a character would regain some focus and the bar would fill up.
Indeed as pointed out CP2020 (and many other systems for that matter) has injury system however what I meant and failed to explain was that not all damage causes an injury. That where combat effectiveness comes into play: it serves as a buffer and of course is affected by inherent toughness and the like. On top of it is regenerating to degree: the simplest way to explain it , think of life bar as multiple bars. If the bar is empty it doesn't regenerate but if it has some juice left during a break in a firefight a character would regain some focus and the bar would fill up.
Hmm. I see what you are saying, but why would you want penalties with no injury? Why do you have the penalties?
2020 has minor Wound (Light and Moderate) states that either don't affect you at all or very little, as well as Serious and Critical, then Mortal, that do.
A .22 round can Moderately wound you or kill you, depending on where it hits and how hard.
A knife, same story.
A 7.62 round can at best Moderately wound you, with penalties, unless you are a tough bastard, and an average hit to the torso of even the Tough bastard will force a Mortal check and quite possible kill you. It -will- leave you bleeding, probably stunned, and about to make a lot more Death Checks. All that with nasty penalties to skills.
Don't get shot.
2020 has minor Wound (Light and Moderate) states that either don't affect you at all or very little, as well as Serious and Critical, then Mortal, that do.
A .22 round can Moderately wound you or kill you, depending on where it hits and how hard.
A knife, same story.
A 7.62 round can at best Moderately wound you, with penalties, unless you are a tough bastard, and an average hit to the torso of even the Tough bastard will force a Mortal check and quite possible kill you. It -will- leave you bleeding, probably stunned, and about to make a lot more Death Checks. All that with nasty penalties to skills.
Don't get shot.
Why? Well, it caters to my desires from a game.
It helps my immersion if I see a bar go down when I am hit yet I am very tempted to "perfect" a run. I feel uneasy sitting on 99% percent health. Often I'll reload and replay same section over and over and over. I am not having fun doing it but I am compelled.
On the other hand hunting for "medpacks" for the sake of health is not fun, for sake of exploration all the power to hunting. Regeneration system solves that issue and allows to focus on fighting more however I feel that it makes fights too trivial while injury adds depth and offers a sort of middle ground that I feel much more comfortable with.
It helps my immersion if I see a bar go down when I am hit yet I am very tempted to "perfect" a run. I feel uneasy sitting on 99% percent health. Often I'll reload and replay same section over and over and over. I am not having fun doing it but I am compelled.
On the other hand hunting for "medpacks" for the sake of health is not fun, for sake of exploration all the power to hunting. Regeneration system solves that issue and allows to focus on fighting more however I feel that it makes fights too trivial while injury adds depth and offers a sort of middle ground that I feel much more comfortable with.
Kind of off topic , but I do want exploration of the game world to be exciting and rewarding, I don't want to ever hunt for med packs or the like. There are enough destitute people going through the trash already. If the gear isn't on someone you just killed it is not going to be in a barrel or box or trash can just sitting over there.
That sounds awesome, actually. I would like getting hurt in a game to be serious business.
I wouldn't mind one-shot kills on harder difficulties, or at least critical hits which severely compromise you, especially if they hit a component which handles your other abilities. That would be awesome gameplay.
Good news! CP2020 has LOTS of one-shot kills! That's actually the default for most firearms vs humans, unless in armour, really tough or lucky.
A .22 will kill you in a shot to the head about 60% of the time and the rest you'll bleed out shortly thereafter. Torso hits won't kill you until/if you bleed out unless the other guy gets a crit and your GM doubles the damage, ( as they should!).
A .45 will kill you nearly always in the head or on a crit and mess you up on torso or arm. It may cause massive trauma and force a Death check.
Let's just not talk about rifles or shotguns.
Knives and clubs will also mess you up, sometimes fatally. Swords as bad as medium pistols. Sometimes worse if the user is a pro.
All this changes with armour and toughness, but still, your very best bet is not to get shot at all, either by killing them first or moving so fast they have a problem hitting you. Hitting targets in CP2020 is actually pretty tough, while under fire, movement, etc.
A .22 will kill you in a shot to the head about 60% of the time and the rest you'll bleed out shortly thereafter. Torso hits won't kill you until/if you bleed out unless the other guy gets a crit and your GM doubles the damage, ( as they should!).
A .45 will kill you nearly always in the head or on a crit and mess you up on torso or arm. It may cause massive trauma and force a Death check.
Let's just not talk about rifles or shotguns.
Knives and clubs will also mess you up, sometimes fatally. Swords as bad as medium pistols. Sometimes worse if the user is a pro.
All this changes with armour and toughness, but still, your very best bet is not to get shot at all, either by killing them first or moving so fast they have a problem hitting you. Hitting targets in CP2020 is actually pretty tough, while under fire, movement, etc.
Just a small correction.... there are no critical hits in the original Cyberpunk 2020... if you roll a ten, you roll it again, adding it to the original hit roll... but it does not effect damage. The only time, under the original rules, damage is effected by the hit roll, is if a head shot is rolled. Then damage that penetrates is doubled.
There are however fumbles.
But most groups have home rules for crits in addition to homes rules for fumbles, because they happen with way to much frequency under the original rules.
Everything else is spot on...
Yeah, thanks. I know that. I specified any good GM will double damage for crits. Did you really think I didn't know that? How hurtful.
It was always silly, that head-only damage rule. Otherwise, you cannot shoot someone in the heart with a .22 and kill them. You just can't. Or stab them, for that matter, unless you have a good strength boost and a good knife. Or the kidney, femoral artery, any of the other prime shots. Especially after BTM.
Femoral artery is actually a better place to shoot/stab someone than the head - less armour, worse chance of survival.
The -reason- I wrote it up that way us because over the years, players and new people inevitably ask, "you mean if I shoot you in the heart, you're still wandering around? Why are head shots so bad, but the heart isn't a kill shot unless I do 8 points all at once after BTM?" They have a point.
In the base rules, of course, it's actually -not- that hard to hit, either, with a few extra skill points and a smart gun. Called shot, head, all the time. You have to really grind on terrain, visibility, movement, etc.
It was always silly, that head-only damage rule. Otherwise, you cannot shoot someone in the heart with a .22 and kill them. You just can't. Or stab them, for that matter, unless you have a good strength boost and a good knife. Or the kidney, femoral artery, any of the other prime shots. Especially after BTM.
Femoral artery is actually a better place to shoot/stab someone than the head - less armour, worse chance of survival.
The -reason- I wrote it up that way us because over the years, players and new people inevitably ask, "you mean if I shoot you in the heart, you're still wandering around? Why are head shots so bad, but the heart isn't a kill shot unless I do 8 points all at once after BTM?" They have a point.
In the base rules, of course, it's actually -not- that hard to hit, either, with a few extra skill points and a smart gun. Called shot, head, all the time. You have to really grind on terrain, visibility, movement, etc.
Hey I am with you pal... its why I have crit tables for IU, I just didn't want to confuse the new guys....
I mean shit, kicks to the groin have taken as many people out of the fights in my game as headshots...
Oh, so true. I think most GMs gleefully force Stun/Shock saves for all sorts of things. I've done it to people for hitting really cold water, iirc...
Heh, I did a Wisdom there, didn't I? I was worried that readers would misunderstand how lethal CP2020 is supposed to be and went into Defense Mode.
Anyway, yeah, excepting certain particularities of the system, ( .22 to the heart, a kick to the groin, knife to the liver doing less damage than a roundhouse kick to the face), CP2020 kill-shots are very, very easy to come by, with and without weapons of all sizes and types.
It's easier to kill someone in Cyberpunk than nearly any game I've played, I think. If you don't interpret the "8 dam to head autokills" rule as being BEFORE auto-doubling but after BTM, it's just nuts. A solid punch to the face from a normal, non-martial artist with a mere +1 to dam from mild strength will kill. Yeah, no.
I throw out the autokill rule altogether and just force a Death Save instead.
Heh, I did a Wisdom there, didn't I? I was worried that readers would misunderstand how lethal CP2020 is supposed to be and went into Defense Mode.
Anyway, yeah, excepting certain particularities of the system, ( .22 to the heart, a kick to the groin, knife to the liver doing less damage than a roundhouse kick to the face), CP2020 kill-shots are very, very easy to come by, with and without weapons of all sizes and types.
It's easier to kill someone in Cyberpunk than nearly any game I've played, I think. If you don't interpret the "8 dam to head autokills" rule as being BEFORE auto-doubling but after BTM, it's just nuts. A solid punch to the face from a normal, non-martial artist with a mere +1 to dam from mild strength will kill. Yeah, no.
I throw out the autokill rule altogether and just force a Death Save instead.
Oh yeah, so lethal I actually cut it back for IU, from 8 disable/10 death to 10 disable 12 death... its just to fricking lethal otherwise...
Also instituted bludgeon damage, unless it breaks a limb it heals at a point an hour... and bare fists/feet don't double for head shots or not specific called shots... other wise if you try and run an MMA fight, or just a boxing match, it ends the first round of combat, with whoever gets hit pretty much killing the other...
Also added a "roll with the punch" rule for hand to hand and melee, allowing you to ignore half the damage... if your block is within 3 points of the attack... because dammit, sometimes you want the long jackie chan climax fight... or at least the Jason Bourne fight...
like everything with IU though, it's all optional.
Damn you Sard! I read it said CP2077 and got excited that we have new information
I have a feeling i have already posted in the thread lol but it's a slow day and reading over the last page i can see that there is a lot of pnp damage resolution stuff being thrown up which is cool however to rail things back on to sumwhat of the op topic i don't feel that the in depth damage system of the pnp will be applicable to a video game from a engineering standpoint.
Here me out now, The extreme depth that the damage models people are talking about would not make for a practical experience in game, i have a feeling that you would be constantly stopping to fix this or that, for a fluid game experience a medpack makes this process a lot simpler and approachable.
Now i hate the health regen idea and how it's implemented in many games today, i like my damage to feel sumwhat finite unless i resolve it with a health thingy whatever that may be.
Perhaps this could take the form of health whatevers found in the environment around you so that you could heal up on the fly if there are such items around (maybe in a trash can or whatever) or perhaps and i think this might be more plausible if you find a med station or seller/fixer, you go there and sort out your issues. A seller/fixer/shop might also help entertain the idea of damage in the pnp sense of limbs and torso and such being capable of taking damage rather then the whole.
Like i said it's probably been gone over extensivelly but hell, it's a slow news day and teh CP spark was relit in me today
Here me out now, The extreme depth that the damage models people are talking about would not make for a practical experience in game, i have a feeling that you would be constantly stopping to fix this or that, for a fluid game experience a medpack makes this process a lot simpler and approachable.
Now i hate the health regen idea and how it's implemented in many games today, i like my damage to feel sumwhat finite unless i resolve it with a health thingy whatever that may be.
Perhaps this could take the form of health whatevers found in the environment around you so that you could heal up on the fly if there are such items around (maybe in a trash can or whatever) or perhaps and i think this might be more plausible if you find a med station or seller/fixer, you go there and sort out your issues. A seller/fixer/shop might also help entertain the idea of damage in the pnp sense of limbs and torso and such being capable of taking damage rather then the whole.
Like i said it's probably been gone over extensivelly but hell, it's a slow news day and teh CP spark was relit in me today