Health: regen or stimpack?

[Harthwain]

I was directing my comments at the whole regen/stimpack idea NOT your comments specifically Safe-r.

I see. My mistake.

What gives me the idea that we'll go into picking difficulty level is that W had it and on highest it was perma-death. Personally I might be interested in picking up such difficulty, if combat is done well. Having Trauma Team as a backup in such case (an expensive back up, as I understand) is very interesting. On the other hand, if dying is too easy or done too poorly (the way that it's not player's fault that he's dead) I certainly won't. I do know the meaning of "losing is fun" (from Paradox titles), but it has to be done properly. It should be me, my sovereign decision, to risk my character's life of which I have a control over. Dying in an accidental firefight that suddenly broke out and losing your hand-crafted character because of that ain't all that fun, because it's something beyond my control and this isn't survival world where everyone can be enemy. Or - if it is - then I should be notified about the risk, like in "EVE: Online". I knew the risks I took when I decided to haul my expensive cargo to a certain space station for a small fortune to make. One or two times it did get close to an edge and I sweated as I was attacked by a pirate, thinking about my precious cargo floating in space. That... That, my friends, is fun. That's me taking my chances. Gambling my life and fortune.

 

[Suhiira]

I see. My mistake.

As we use to say when playing "Jungle Rules" football, "No blood, no foul."

Never was much of a fan of permadeath simply because given the number of life-or-death fights the average character gets into during the course of a game it's pretty inevitable that sooner or later they'll get a bad die roll.
I know such things are pretty popular in "twitch" games where it's possible to never make a bad move (if you're fast enough on the buttons) but I'll be VERY disappointed if combat in CP2077 follows this model.

 

[vongo.859]

One or two times it did get close to an edge and I sweated as I was attacked by a pirate, thinking about my precious cargo floating in space. That... That, my friends, is fun. That's me taking my chances. Gambling my life and fortune.

Hmm... I suppose I'll have to re-evaluate my definition of fun.

I think that same level of adrenaline and fun can be achieved without such daunting risks looming over the players head. There's a fine line between fun-inducing adrenaline and stress-inducing adrenaline. While everyone has a different threshold for that, I hope CDPR focuses first on what more people would enjoy, at least in this context. A 'difficulty setting' would be a nice feature, but probably tough to pull off unless all it does is make the AI stronger. I'm all for as much content as possible, including options for perma-death, but priority wise I think it should be low on the list... especially if it requires extra resources to produce it.

And like suhiir said, I think the biggest problem with some form of perma-death in this game would be the frequency of life-or-death occurrences.

 

[Suhiira]

I've never seen a game with difficulty levels that didn't effect combat. Yeah I know that's a "duh", but my point is if making combat more (or less) difficult is the only way to make a game interesting/fun hasn't the games maker actually failed in their attempt to make a good game?

 

[Harthwain]

Hmm... I suppose I'll have to re-evaluate my definition of fun.

Fun is for to each man to discover alone. It was fun for me, because I knew the risks and made my choice. Had someone else took that choice for me it wouldn't have been fun. When the rules are clearly defined there is nothing wrong with the game. I do think there will be a difficulty setting (judging by other W[itcher] titles), but the base should be that it's up to player to decide. Take "Dark Souls" series for example. Nobody there is fooling you that you won't die. You will. Plenty. The beauty is to take the challenge and raise, from the gutter, against the world and try to find a way to save yourself, survive.

 

[vongo.859]

I've never seen a game with difficulty levels that didn't effect combat. Yeah I know that's a "duh", but my point is if making combat more (or less) difficult is the only way to make a game interesting/fun hasn't the games maker actually failed in their attempt to make a good game?

Yeah, I don't think having a 'difficulty setting' would be worth the effort to develop if all it does is make the combat more difficult. I was thinking more along the lines of increased aspects of realism such as required eating, drinking, sleeping, perma-death, etc. That's why I don't think it's very plausible.

Fun is for to each man to discover alone. It was fun for me, because I knew the risks and made my choice. Had someone else took that choice for me it wouldn't have been fun. When the rules are clearly defined there is nothing wrong with the game. I do think there will be a difficulty setting (judging by other W[itcher] titles), but the base should be that it's up to player to decide. Take "Dark Souls" series for example. Nobody there is fooling you that you won't die. You will. Plenty. The beauty is to take the challenge and raise, from the gutter, against the world and try to find a way to save yourself, survive.

Fair point. I'm just hoping CDPR doesn't make the game difficult for the sake of making it difficult. I realize Dark Souls and EVE are more complicated than that, but they fall into that category for me.

I don't expect there to be a perma-death unless it's an optional side feature (and even then, not really). I was just voicing my concerns as to why I wouldn't want it in the game.

 

[Suhiira]

Take "Dark Souls" series for example. Nobody there is fooling you that you won't die. You will. Plenty. The beauty is to take the challenge and raise, from the gutter, against the world and try to find a way to save yourself, survive.

I have zero problems with dieing in games, that's what saves are for after all (well, that end exploring alternate courses of action).
I think/hope CP2077 is along the same vein, your goal will be to save and make something of yourself/character NOT save the world from whatever evil threatens it with destruction this week.

 

[Harthwain]

Yeah, I don't think having a 'difficulty setting' would be worth the effort to develop if all it does is make the combat more difficult. I was thinking more along the lines of increased aspects of realism such as required eating, drinking, sleeping, perma-death, etc. That's why I don't think it's very plausible.

Difficulty level doesn't have to affect combat alone. It would depend on what you aim with having varying degree of difficulty. I think it might be complicated mostly because with different difficulty settings there might be conflict, if players would to share the same world. However, the DS do made a good precedent and difficulty level can default to level of the host or players would be only able to connect to players who share the same difficulty level.

Fair point. I'm just hoping CDPR doesn't make the game difficult for the sake of making it difficult. I realize Dark Souls and EVE are more complicated than that, but they fall into that category for me.

My experience with their games indicate that making difficult game for the sake of making it difficult would be senseless and is not likely to happen.

I don't expect there to be a perma-death unless it's an optional side feature (and even then, not really). I was just voicing my concerns as to why I wouldn't want it in the game.

Well, W2 has it. I didn't take it. I decided it doesn't suit the game. But if CP77 has a good incentive for me I might be willing to take on perma-death. Especially if choices are much more fluid and world more dynamic that each game would have been different. I rather doubt that perma-death will be mandatory, if it will be implemented.

I have zero problems with dieing in games, that's what saves are for after all (well, that end exploring alternate courses of action).

With the existence of saves that allow you to avoid death when used, I'd say it does indicate that dying bothers you. Not that's a bad thing. Player should enjoy dying, if it's done well. If death is supposed to be important part of the game - with the idea that fearing for your character should be making you act wiser than usual and adding weight to your choices - then it's poorly executed. Because you reload. In contrast, I don't think that dying in W had a point. All it could accomplish would be making me re-do the game, to the point where I died, and carry on. It would serve no purpose to me. I don't need to prove myself - and the others - that I can win the game without dying once. Death should have meaning for the player to stick to it and not simply re-roll [the same] character, because it's just better to reload an ealier save.

It does bother me that points in H:A make me reload the game for the "perfect" run (points), instead of taking consequences of my actions and trying to deal with it. I will need to pass that game next time, this time without reloading. It's a good example of an idea for gameplay - encouraging you to hide bodies - that is interesting to a degree, but in practice misses a mark a bit, because people can be bothered by losing points. That's why I do like games where your actions and choices are being auto-saved, to avoid so-called "save scumming" in order to "do better". But that's me and I am not perfect. I am sure that if there is such an option to not be able to reload it'll be purely optional, like in W. Or it'll be up to each player individually not to reload.

 

[Suhiira]

With the existence of saves that allow you to avoid death when used, I'd say it does indicate that dying bothers you.

No actually, replaying the same content to get to the point I died, then replaying it yet again to get to the point I die later in the game, then replaying it another time to get the then next point I died ... etc etc. etc. ... that's what bothers me.

 

[Harthwain]

Yes, I was trying to encompass that when I gave W2 as an example. That's why I hope they'll get deeper into player actions than in Ws. You had choices there (I call them "major choices"), but in all their depth they were fairly simple at core, I'd even go so far as to call them limited. Is your RPG experience different than mine in a sense of picking up the same choice that I did? In terms of a choice itself it is not. That's why in this post I came to great lengths to express myself on the importance of a choice. Not as a separate option with different effect, but as a choice based on different intent. We both might decide to spare this man's life, but for different reasons. That's what I call role-playing and making choices. P:T - also mentioned in linked post - is a great way of making choices both deep and complex while the structure is fairly simple. I suspect that my first playthrough of P:T is far different than yours was. If they are able to achieve this level of difference then dying wouldn't be simplified to a way of re-doing an already known part of the story - which ain't all that interesting - because even slight diffrence in approach would cause vastly different outcome. If the same class can get many varying outcomes then imagine nine of them.

 

[twinspectre]

no REGEN HEALTH nuff said

 

[Decatonkeil]

I think I haven't commented here: I don't know why we can't have healing items anymore in games. I liked it in SR2 where you could pack some burgers when preparing for a firefight or some blunts when you expected to do a lot of running (didn't they recover stamina?). Okay, no healing burgers for CP2077. We want it to be somewhat realistic. Maybe we can have painkillers which could alleviate some of the bad things associated with injury, something to stop the bleeding, etc. Maybe even something that can heal and is somewhat within the lore. I don't know if healing nanomachine infusions could fit.

 

[Sardukhar]

Maybe even something that can heal and is somewhat within the lore. I don't know if healing nanomachine infusions could fit.

Things in the lore are still pretty slow. If you have the right gear and skills, you can stabilize someone, stop them from bleeding out. If you have the right cyber, you can reduce your chance of death from same, reduce stun/shock chance, disease, poison,e tc..

But as for magic heal-now items, nope. That takes time. With mere First aide, 0.5 points per day. If you use all the combos - Speedheal, nanotech, excellent care, 3 points per day! As the book says, you'd be back in action from a Mortal Wound in a mere six days!

The catch? It costs, ohh...a lot. A total of $22000 PLUS regular hospital bills for those six days. In CP2020, that is serious moola - equivalent to buying multiple cyberlimbs, top-notch reflex boosting, several heavy weapons plus ammo..you get the picture. No, they don't take checks or payment plans.

When you're at Mortal, you're bedridden. Mortal 3 and above, probably comatose. wired into machines, breathing with assistance, etc.

Also, every day you stay at Mortal, without care, you have to make Death Check, too. If you haven't received medical help, you also take 2 points of damage per day, every day, from infection and shocl...pushing you further into Mortal wounds.


So, no, there is no quickie heal in CP2020. Stabilize and stop bleeding ia about it.

Lastly, how hard is to get into Mortal Wounds? That's 13 points of damage. A 9mm pistol does 2d6+1 damage. Per hit. At point blank range, it does maximum damage on hit. Head hits double damage.

So if you walk up to someone with a 9mm, press it into their chest and pull the trigger, if they are weak-ish, they must immediately check to see if they are KOed at -3 to a Bod of 4 (probably) and dead ( probably). If they are average, they check for KO ( probably) and have, oh, one turn of bleeding - 3.2 seconds - before they are Mortal and check if they are dead.

Same thing if it's you, unless you are tough and armored. And they don't shoot you in the head, use AP/API rounds, or fire up to the full RoF on their ambush. In which case you are quite possibly dead. In one attack.

If you aren't dead, you are KOed and bleeding - more Death checks. THEN, if they stabilize you, whoever they is that shows up, they need to get you to medical care, where you will either be for WEEKS, costing lots of money later or a week, costing lots and lots of money now.

ISN'T THIS A FUN GAME KIDS?

 

[Suhiira]

But let's face it.
If CP2077 is going to be primarily a single-player game CDPR is going to have to do something about first aid, if not health recovery.
Simply because as a single-player, non-party based game just who is going to give you first aid?

That said there's NO reason for them to include any sort of "magic healing" stuff. You get hurt you're outta the action for a few days.

 

[Sardukhar]

But let's face it.
If CP2077 is going to be primarily a single-player game CDPR is going to have to do something about first aid, if not health recovery.
Simply because as a single-player, non-party based game just who is going to give you first aid?

That said there's NO reason for them to include any sort of "magic healing" stuff. You get hurt you're outta the action for a few days.

Yeah, SP CRPG is going to change things.

Although Cpunk is perfectly playable as a solo, ( heh) game. Fun, too.

This is also why Trauma Team is around. BEEE...Whoosh! "STEP BACK FROM THE CLIENT OR WE WILL OPEN FIRE. YOU HAVE TWO SECONDS."

I would like to see a time-dilation effect if you are wounded, yeah.

But I, of course, concede there are going to be many changes to the game because it's not PnP anymore.

 

[Suhiira]

Unless your character is a rich Corp you're not going to be able to afford Trauma Team coverage for at least the first part of the game.
So unless CDPR flat-out gives the player coverage (a rich uncle left it to you in his will?) it's still going to be all to easy to wind up dead before you can afford it.

 

[Sardukhar]

Trauma Team is only $500 per month. Really not that bad, for what it provides. If the game even takes more than a month, otherwise you only need the $500. Sure, for a Fixer that's 1/3 of his starting monthly..but you start with 1-2 months salary. For a Solo, at $2000 a month, $500 out of $4000 is an excellent choice.

And that's before you Sell Out. If you do. And that's to start, before you even walk out onto the rain-swept streets of Night City, listening to the banter of street hustlers, seeing AV-7s cruising by high above...salivating again, must stop..

Your first couple jobs should net you enough to afford TT.

TT is priced to be affordable, after all!

Not that I have any problem with screwup = dead for the first thrid of the game. Very Street and unlike in the PnP, you can reload.

In fact, Save anywhere, Reload often makes self-healing crap pointless and a good reason to throw it out of the game altogether. Save checkpoints would make it more necessary, but who doesn't hate those?

 

[Suhiira]

I'd suspect that like almost all PC/console games you'll start with a set of clothes, a very basic weapon, and and empty wallet.
It'd be nice if the game didn't start that way but I'm sure not gonna hold my breath.

 

[Sardukhar]

I'd suspect that like almost all PC/console games you'll start with a set of clothes, a very basic weapon, and and empty wallet.
It'd be nice if the game didn't start that way but I'm sure not gonna hold my breath.

Mm. Good point.

I really hope we get the Full Monty in terms of character creation. It's so important as a starting character, both in terms of Lifepath and Selling Out. Not to mention starting Empathy after cyber.

Significant character directions arise from these choices.

Anyway, on topic again. I see first aid packs, stimpacks and Trauma Team coverage as essential, but remain firm that there should be no auto-regen on health and no fast heal.

 

[Suhiira]

I really hope we get the Full Monty in terms of character creation. It's so important as a starting character, both in terms of Lifepath and Selling Out. Not to mention starting Empathy after cyber.

Significant character directions arise from these choices.

Yep, and just how many players would go nearly full borg during character creation then complain LOUDLY when they find out cyber-psychosis isn't just a fancy word for "unstoppable killing machine"?