[Hearts of Stone spoilers] The Order of the Flaming Rose

[CTPhipps]

[Hearts of Stone spoilers] The Order of the Flaming Rose

I'm very glad CD_Projekt Red managed to answer the question as to what these guys have been up to, even if the answer isn't particularly healthy for my fan favorite group of people.

It turns out King Radovid swore many oaths and made many promises to the Order of the Flaming Rose and then sent them to the front lines in order to try and blunt the Nilfgaardian advance. After they were all but destroyed, King Radovid proceeded to confiscate all of their lands and use the money to finance his war against the Nilfgaard.

Those who didn't resist, he made Witch-Hunters.

Those who did, were forced to become bandits and that's why they're now Elite Enemies wandering the maps.

Interestingly, this may indicate Radovid isn't necessarily prejudiced against mages or nonhumans given this is EXACTLY what he did to both the mages and nonhumans.

Still, what a sad-sad fate for the Order, forced to be Fisstech producers again.

 

[Mixxer5]

Imo, it's rather poor writing- like reason of state and everything involving politics (i.e- Emhyr's shaky position- we see literally no reasons why he could be overthrown and annexing a Free City and northern states should actually be seen as positive things among traders- no tariffs). Order should have been mentioned already in vanilla, rather than drop out of nowhere in HoS. What's more- they are cannon fodder, nothing else. We don't get to meet Sigfrid, get any background on situation. Just some guys in fancy armors to get killed and forgotten. It is disappointing.

 

[CTPhipps]

Imo, it's rather poor writing- like reason of state and everything involving politics (i.e- Emhyr's shaky position- we see literally no reasons why he could be overthrown and annexing a Free City and northern states should actually be seen as positive things among traders- no tariffs). Order should have been mentioned already in vanilla, rather than drop out of nowhere in HoS. What's more- they are cannon fodder, nothing else. We don't get to meet Sigfrid, get any background on situation. Just some guys in fancy armors to get killed and forgotten. It is disappointing.

1. Given Emhyr has lost not once, not twice, but THREE WARS in a row in the "overthrow ending" and his backstory is already one which consists of, "was turned into a monster by his politcal enemies and left to wander the wilderness" I don't think there's any real need to explain why his political position is tenuous. Emhyr has a HORRIBLE record as a military leader despite a strong start in the campaigns and many otherwise brilliant men have been overthrown for much less than repeated failures at defeating much-much weaker nations.

2. In the context of the story as presented, the reasons the Order isn't mentioned in vanilla is very good. The Order isn't mentioned because it's been DISBANDED. That may not be what fans WANTED but it's an entirely reasonable ending for the organization. It's, honestly, a mircale the Order of the Flaming Rose survived the events of the Witcher to begin with given how thoroughly discredited they were in Temeria.

As for Siegfried, he's dead in approximately 2/3rds of all playthrough. Thaler shows you can just ignore that but in all likelihood, he's not alive. You'd have to make a retcon he was.

 

[Sam2305]

I'm very glad CD_Projekt Red managed to answer the question as to what these guys have been up to, even if the answer isn't particularly healthy for my fan favorite group of people.

It turns out King Radovid swore many oaths and made many promises to the Order of the Flaming Rose and then sent them to the front lines in order to try and blunt the Nilfgaardian advance. After they were all but destroyed, King Radovid proceeded to confiscate all of their lands and use the money to finance his war against the Nilfgaard.

Those who didn't resist, he made Witch-Hunters.

Those who did, were forced to become bandits and that's why they're now Elite Enemies wandering the maps.

Interestingly, this may indicate Radovid isn't necessarily prejudiced against mages or nonhumans given this is EXACTLY what he did to both the mages and nonhumans.

Still, what a sad-sad fate for the Order, forced to be Fisstech producers again.

At least, CDPR gave us a reasonable explanation to this plot hole. The only inconsistency is that the don't tell us what happened with Sigfried. I mean, it's so easy to put a small line saying "he died in the frontlines" or something like that. Or just a journal entry as they did with Toruviel.

Honestly, it's the end of a saga, we deserve to know what is the fate of all main characters

 

[CTPhipps]

At least, CDPR gave us a reasonable explanation to this plot hole. The only inconsistency is that the don't tell us what happened with Sigfried. I mean, it's so easy to put a small line saying "he died in the frontlines" or something like that. Or just a journal entry as they did with Toruviel.

Honestly, it's the end of a saga, we deserve to know what is the fate of all main characters

Well, in every ending but the Order ending, Siegfried died.

Even so the game actually gives a moment where Geralt talks to the new head of the Order (well, the Order's remnants)

"What would Siegfried say?"

"Siegfried, you knew Siegfried?"

So, it implies he's dead in a way which doesn't get involved in continuity.

 

[Sam2305]

Well, in every ending but the Order ending, Siegfried died.

Even so the game actually gives a moment where Geralt talks to the new head of the Order (well, the Order's remnants)

"What would Siegfried say?"

"Siegfried, you knew Siegfried?"

So, it implies he's dead in a way which doesn't get involved in continuity.

That are assumptions, no one said anything about Sigfried's dead. What I'm asking is for direct sentences like "he died at..."

 

[Mixxer5]

1. Given Emhyr has lost not once, not twice, but THREE WARS in a row in the "overthrow ending" and his backstory is already one which consists of, "was turned into a monster by his politcal enemies and left to wander the wilderness" I don't think there's any real need to explain why his political position is tenuous. Emhyr has a HORRIBLE record as a military leader despite a strong start in the campaigns and many otherwise brilliant men have been overthrown for much less than repeated failures at defeating much-much weaker nations.

2. In the context of the story as presented, the reasons the Order isn't mentioned in vanilla is very good. The Order isn't mentioned because it's been DISBANDED. That may not be what fans WANTED but it's an entirely reasonable ending for the organization. It's, honestly, a mircale the Order of the Flaming Rose survived the events of the Witcher to begin with given how thoroughly discredited they were in Temeria.

As for Siegfried, he's dead in approximately 2/3rds of all playthrough. Thaler shows you can just ignore that but in all likelihood, he's not alive. You'd have to make a retcon he was.

1. I'm not saying that it's impossible. It's just bad- imo- that we can barely hear some characters talking about it (it should be big issue), rather than having separate questline about it. On the other hand, we can see Radovid literally going nuts, but there's no internal opposition to his rule. We ally with gangs, and partisants from border countries, but no one organizes anything against this guy, even though he has conquered Kaedwen (!), burned hundreds of people and and introduced police state. It makes whole story unbelievable- Emhyr is calm and cold, brilliant tactic (even if he's not presented ingame as such), but he just gets overthrown (no civil war?), while Radovid must be assasinated to stop his reign of terror. What's more- Emhyr already cemented his rule earlier (in books) and he hardly lost second war. He established Dol Blathanna as vassal state, became recognized as ruler of Cintra... And- what's most important- he wasn't seen as aggressor by his subjects! It's mentioned in books too- rulers of the North wanted to provoke war with Nilfgaard, to reestablish Cintra, but they screwed up- and Emhyr used it as casus belli.

2. Order got lands in TW2, so total lack of order's presence is unreasonable. I'm not saying that we should meet whole chapter- but Geralt doesn't even ask about them, it's like they don't exist at all. And in DLC they're cannon fodder as I said, so it's not very good farawell...

As for Siegfried- so what? He can make cameo appearance, he can only be mentioned, he can be a body hanging from a tree... He could also get his own quest, like Letho did and that would be all. TW3 is huge game, adding one more character wouldn't be such a strain.

Well, in every ending but the Order ending, Siegfried died.

Even so the game actually gives a moment where Geralt talks to the new head of the Order (well, the Order's remnants)

"What would Siegfried say?"

"Siegfried, you knew Siegfried?"

So, it implies he's dead in a way which doesn't get involved in continuity.

That's interesting- in Polish version, he uses present time if I recall correctly ("You know Sigfrid?", or something like that), so it might be just poor translation.

Last but not least- Siegfried must die only in Scoiatel path. If Geralt joins order or is neutral, he is either ally or can be talked down (he's not an ally, he just leaves).