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Heavy Stuttering in Villages

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E

equazor

Rookie
#21
Jun 18, 2015
Same here, since patch 1.05 i believe i have a lots of stutter in city's
also FPS seems lower then older builds.

Nvidia GTX970OC (353.06 drivers)
i72600K @ 4.6Ghz
8GB 1600Mhz ram
250GB SSD windows OS with pagefile on OS drive.
250GB SSD Game install
Windows 8.1 pro

Setting on ultra with Hairworks disabled.
 
Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
P

prince_of_nothing

Forum veteran
#22
Jun 18, 2015
PrincessMassacre said:
that's part of the problem. lower resolution = less ram.
Click to expand...
Lower resolution? How is 2560x1440 a low resolution? It's above the standard HD resolution.. Also, resolution does not affect RAM usage. It affects VRAM usage, but not RAM.

that's correct. but you weren't paying attention. the error in question was addr 0x0, which is generally an invalid page fault... ie: page does not exist (not enough ram/pagefile)... this is a very specific error...
Click to expand...
And did increasing the pagefile work?

this is a fallacy. disabling pagefile will actually make your system slower. anything that is cached, must be rebuilt each time it's flushed...
Click to expand...
The cache is only flushed after a reboot, or if there isn't enough spare memory on hand to run something else. Windows manages the cache very well, and provided you have enough physical memory, it shouldn't be a problem unless you have tons of memory sucking programs running in the background like internet browsers..

nope, uses about the same. win 8.1 also has several memory optimizations over win7. performance-wise, prob faster.
Click to expand...
Windows 8.1 uses less RAM than Windows 7, and less VRAM as well since it lacks Aero.

anyways, to address your specific situation. as i said before, 20-24gb total (ram+page) is enough to get by, for witcher 3 at least and most games. i like 24 because it's a safe, round number. if you're running lower resolution and less apps (prob no antivirus either)... 16gb might be enough. but you're still losing performance, bcs windows can't properly cache anything from ram if it needs the space for something else... in practice, it's probably generating more disk activity, not less. and then you're going to run into various cases of stuff that's just brokendue to no pagefile. i could also think of a few graphical/video editing, memory-intensive applications, which would simply die a horrible death...
Click to expand...
I have a high end machine (4930K @ 4.5ghz, GTX 980 SLI, 16GB DDR3 2133, Samsung 850 Pro SSD), and I assure you I'm not losing any performance. I'm getting constant 60 FPS more or less..

moral of the story: no pagefile = bad. more ram = good. pagefile usage reduced by sufficient ram.
Click to expand...
We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't care whether you enable your pagefile or not, and I'm sure you feel the same way towards me.
 
S

Serwadion

Rookie
#23
Jun 18, 2015
equazor said:
Same here, since patch 1.05 i believe i have a lots of stutter in city's
also FPS seems lower then older builds.

Nvidia GTX970OC (353.06 drivers)
i72600K @ 4.6Ghz
8GB 1600Mhz ram
250GB SSD windows OS with pagefile on OS drive.
250GB SSD Game install
Windows 8.1 pro

Setting on ultra with Hairworks disabled.
Click to expand...
I'm a bit curious ;)
You got The Witcher 3 with the video card bundle?
 
P

prince_of_nothing

Forum veteran
#24
Jun 18, 2015
equazor said:
Same here, since patch 1.05 i believe i have a lots of stutter in city's
also FPS seems lower then older builds.

Nvidia GTX970OC (353.06 drivers)
i72600K @ 4.6Ghz
8GB 1600Mhz ram
250GB SSD windows OS with pagefile on OS drive.
250GB SSD Game install
Windows 8.1 pro

Setting on ultra with Hairworks disabled.
Click to expand...
Might think about getting more RAM is my advice. This game uses a lot of RAM. I've seen as much as a little over 7GB used when playing for long sessions and traveling between different areas of Velen, Novigrad and Skellige..
 
S

Serwadion

Rookie
#25
Jun 18, 2015
prince_of_nothing said:
Might think about getting more RAM is my advice. This game uses a lot of RAM. I've seen as much as a little over 7GB used when playing for long sessions and traveling between different areas of Velen, Novigrad and Skellige..
Click to expand...
But you noticed a so high consumption of physical RAM? Because I haven't! I admit that having a lower hardware compared both of you, I doesn't use ultra settings. Later I'll check with higher settings and I'll check also how much RAM will be used, but I have any problem of stuttering or CTD.

Someone can post a video to better understand how this stutter happen please? ;)
 
E

equazor

Rookie
#26
Jun 18, 2015
Serwadion said:
I'm a bit curious ;)
You got The Witcher 3 with the video card bundle?
Click to expand...
nope, was an early adaptor for the GTX970, no free game bundle :(
 
K

KOngo-Otto

Rookie
#27
Jun 18, 2015
Serwadion said:
I'm a bit curious ;)
You got The Witcher 3 with the video card bundle?
Click to expand...
I got it together with Batman Arkham Knight when i bought me a new GTX 970 STRIX OC. I would call it a win win situation.
 
P

PrincessMassacre

Senior user
#28
Jun 18, 2015
(edited out for sanity)

just profiled pagefile usage with 16gb ram (map travelled to various locations), results:

on clean boot, launching witcher3.exe (antivirus, steam, etc... running) i'm only hitting 10-12gb commit+cache (easily 16gb with a few apps/browsers running). previously, before reboot i was up to 20-24gb commit+cache, maybe had a few apps and browser tabs running, nothing major though. mostly due to antivirus, windows updates, steam, etc probably... over time they start to take up more ram, but only partly due to cache, bcs apps will try to utilize as much memory as they can get.

the only time pages were written to disk was when i loaded and exited the game/alt-tabbed. otherwise, zero/next to zero pagefile writes, but more than several reads. typical usage :\ witcher3.exe keeps about 4-8gb in pagefile with 16gb ram. ~4-12gb with 8gb ram. eh, forgot to mention the amount cached in pagefile can exceed 6-12gb, but that's rarely used (so technically commit+cache).

you can use the following perfmon counters (start-r > perfmon):

Code:
memory: % committed bytes in use, available bytes, cache bytes, committed bytes, pages input/sec, pages output/sec
pagefile: % usage
physicaldisk: current disk queue length, disk bytes/sec, % disk time
process: page file bytes (witcher3.exe)
if your system is not exceeding 12-14gb commit (+cache, or plus 2-4gb at least) under any circumstance, then you can consider disabling page file (w/ 16gb ram). just be aware that some apps may not function correctly (and you lose the ability to create windows crash dumps). otherwise prob set pagefile to 8/16gb (light/heavy usage), or 'windows managed' by default, will prob end up using 16gb.

24gb+ is a whole other matter. you can optimize to stay under 24gb for most current applications. still maybe beneficial to have 4-8gb pagefile, depends, you'd have to profile usage. it varies, light usage should be fine.

8gb, on the other hand, should buy more ram, since it's hitting 10-12gb commit alone. for the meantime, set pagefile to 'windows managed' or 16gb.

add +257mb to all number for full windows crashdumps, if you want them.

 

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Biebo1

Rookie
#29
Jun 18, 2015
@Prince and Princess
Can we pls stay on topic? Nobody wants to read this crap.
 
P

PrincessMassacre

Senior user
#30
Jun 18, 2015
this 'crap' has helped a few people. and one of the correspondents had an issue with 0x0.

don't mind me, i have to correct misconceptions before they have time to incubate.

as for the topic: not much else to discuss.

as for the other crashes: not much to discuss: file a bug report/crashdump with cdpr, and search forums for nvidia workarounds (there are hundreds of threads). i can't say whether any of them has any effect on the problem, most likely internal game code... and since i own amd...

more than likely, people are sick of 'this crap': constant stuttering/lod spam threads... (i mean, just read the first few responses).
 
Last edited: Jun 18, 2015
B

Biebo1

Rookie
#31
Jun 18, 2015
Ok Princess...
 
P

prince_of_nothing

Forum veteran
#32
Jun 19, 2015
PrincessMassacre said:
that contradicts itself, plus if you're using all your 16gb (in my tests system was up to 20gb with 8gb ram, 24gb commit with 16gb ram). then the cache will be dumped, in ram or in pagefile, doesn't matter... it's inefficient if you don't have at least enough virtual address space for even that...
Click to expand...
How is it contradictory? The Witcher 3 doesn't require nowhere near that much memory from my experience. I've seen 7.1GB of RAM usage on my system, but that includes everything and not just the Witcher 3.. This mirrors what other tech websites have experienced as well. GameGPU's figures:



They likely just tested Novigrad, but the more areas Geralt travels to, the more RAM is used. My 7.1GB was after playing the game for several hours and visiting multiple locations..

if it does use less ram, it's minimal. on the order of a few hundred MBs, and that can change, depending on the situation. and you contradict yourself again :\
Click to expand...
You don't like being wrong do you? Not only does Windows 8.1 use less RAM, but it's also more efficient at utilizing memory and CPU cycles..

you can't measure pagefile performance with FPS.
Click to expand...
If you haven't already guessed, I could care less about pagefile performance. In fact, the less pagefile my PC uses, the better.

that's bad advice, and stop handing it out. thanks. have a nice day, take care.
Click to expand...
It works perfectly well for me. In fact, I'd wager that my gaming experience is a helluva lot better than yours..

on clean boot, launching witcher3.exe (antivirus, steam, etc... running) i'm only hitting 10-12gb commit+cache (easily 16gb with a few apps/browsers running). previously, before reboot i was up to 20-24gb commit+cache, maybe had a few apps and browser tabs running, nothing major though. mostly due to antivirus, windows updates, steam, etc probably... over time they start to take up more ram, but only partly due to cache, bcs apps will try to utilize as much memory as they can get.
Click to expand...
Well of course pagefile usage is going to be much higher than physical memory if the pagefile is enabled. This doesn't mean the actual game requires that much addressable memory (includes both physical and virtual memory) though; as you admitted yourself there was barely any pagefile usage occurring.. As I stated earlier, the game averages around 5 to 6GB of RAM (including the RAM used to buffer the VRAM). To get above that, you have to be playing for a while and go to multiple areas..

On a 16GB machine, running out of memory shouldn't be an issue at all even with the pagefile disabled unless you have concurrent programs running in the background like Chrome that use a lot of RAM..

For an 8GB system, I would agree that disabling the pagefile would not be a good idea. But I never advised anyone with 8GB to disable the pagefile anyway so it's a non issue for me.
 
P

PrincessMassacre

Senior user
#33
Jun 19, 2015
prince_of_nothing said:
I've seen 7.1GB of RAM usage on my system, but that includes everything and not just the Witcher 3.. This mirrors what other tech websites have experienced as well.
Click to expand...
been looking for an easier way to explain this. may write up a faq for various issues some day, prob not. meh :\

also, those sites are probably listing just the ram usage, maybe not pagefile/cache, and just for witcher3.exe.



decided to dust off 'sysinternals process explorer' for this example. observe cache is hitting 8gb. in this example, when commit+cache reaches 20-24gb (in my other tests, where pagefile was hitting 8gb), you're basically using all 16gb as commit (+some cache), some pagefile commit (mostly null/zeroed pages), and rest of 8gb cache, where? nowhere. that's why i consider 16gb an 'iffy' boundary, where it's best to have 8-16gb pagefile anyways. it most likely will be rarely used anyways (a 'page fault' is not pagefile usage, its mostly ram page usage, a 'hard page fault' is a disk read/write via pagefile)

something interesting here as well, digging up blogs that maybe i can link to explain it (although it's very technical): http://brandonlive.com/2010/02/21/measuring-memory-usage-in-windows-7/

according to this, the committed pages in the pagefile are most likely empty... they're simply committed, but not used. zero'd out pages on disk, so it can address more ram instantly without having to commit unused bytes to ram (no sense in filling ram with zeros basically). this doesn't mean it writes them to disk to address that ram, it just copies the zeroed out pages in the virtual address space to ram, instant addressable memory.

for most practical applications, no pagefile will actually hinder performance in that scenario (16gb). unless it's very light usage (no anti-v, indexing/windows updates disabled, no browsers/comms, etc...)

essentially, current gen games/apps/windows require about 24gb+ addressable memory to operate efficiently (can vary from 20-32gb+ though). although making pagefile too small isn't good either, since then it'll be needing to drop/swap pages out for new ones constantly. must have enough breathing room (so i still lean towards 24-32gb+).

another way of looking at it is (using example above): peak commit 10.5gb, system cache 1.5gb = 12gb, that leaves 4gb for extra commits or remaining cache. over a few days, that # will decrease, leaving you with 0gb for extra commits/cache (technically you want at least 20% cache relative to ram volume, +extra for commits and to reduce memory management).
 

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Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
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equazor

Rookie
#34
Jun 19, 2015
For all the memory posts above, i upgraded from 8GB to 16GM ram and have the exact same stutter.
So for me it was not a ram issue.
Got a clean windows install and there is nothing else running in the background, no virus scanner of browser etc.

What did help was disable ingame VSYNC and FPS limiter and setting Vsync in nvidia control panel.
Setting frames rendered ahead to 1 in control panel and enabled tripple buffering.
Then limited the FPS to 60 with RTSS.

Played for 4 hours and no stutter anymore in novigrad.
 
Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
P

PrincessMassacre

Senior user
#35
Jun 19, 2015
nobody ever said stutter was due to ram. but 8gb is on the low side for gaming, so you're better off anyways.

and other people have tried what you suggested and still report stuttering, so it's a mixed bag/placebo.

now can we drop these silly stutter threads please? thanks.

i've got an idea, take your iphone to the apple store, and get a refund cuz some apps appear laggy. will work for sure.
 
A

ArchibaldWheeler

Rookie
#36
Jun 19, 2015
After patch 1.05 I was getting game crashes and stutter, especially inside cities. After I enabled "triple buffering" option on NVIDIA control panel for Witcher 3 and turned on V-Sync the stutter is virtually gone and I had no more crashes. I would suggesting trying this out, it might help.
 
P

PrincessMassacre

Senior user
#37
Jun 19, 2015
well, i just tried what you suggest, amd card though, using radeonpro, disabled vsync in-game and fps cap, set them in radeonpro instead.

more stuttering than before, plus input lag due to triple-buffering. :\ (protip: it has nothing to do with buffering/frames/vsync).

imaginations from the other side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUaT9PtjSO0
 
Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
T

TROOPER181st

Rookie
#38
Jun 19, 2015
micro stutter is still here .. no matter if you enable or disable triple buffering set vsync ON in the driver and OFF ingame.. it still is here.
PS i disagree alot with PrincessMassacre on the 8*GB is not enough for gaming in terms of better performance the difference i hear is 1- 3 fps. ..but i must confess i dont have 16GB and so i really cant discuss it.. but netheirless 8GB or 16 GB still the game suffers from microstutter
 
S

Samurai3X

Rookie
#39
Jun 19, 2015
Hardcore sluttering since 1.06.
Before game ran smooth.
 
Last edited: Jun 19, 2015
P

prince_of_nothing

Forum veteran
#40
Jun 20, 2015
TROOPER181st said:
micro stutter is still here .. no matter if you enable or disable triple buffering set vsync ON in the driver and OFF ingame.. it still is here.
PS i disagree alot with PrincessMassacre on the 8*GB is not enough for gaming in terms of better performance the difference i hear is 1- 3 fps. ..but i must confess i dont have 16GB and so i really cant discuss it.. but netheirless 8GB or 16 GB still the game suffers from microstutter
Click to expand...
As much as PrincessMassacre and I have disagreed, I do agree with him (or her) that 8GB isn't enough for games these days. The new generation of games are all coming with 64 bit exe, so they have a tendency to use a lot more RAM than last generation games which were mostly 32 bit.

Also, increasing RAM doesn't really increase the frame rates (unless you're running far below the recommended amount). What it does is allow the game to cache more data for faster access, rather than going all the way to storage which takes much longer. So upping the RAM can do things like decrease load times, reduce stuttering, make games smoother and more responsive.. It can improve frame rates, but like I said, only if you're running below recommended levels.

GPUs don't read and write directly to system RAM, as it's too slow so for the most part, system RAM doesn't directly affect frame rates. But it can definitely impact overall gaming experience..
 
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