If using arguments is pointless, this thread is more about ranting and arguing that anything else.triptrap said:
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Explain to me how TW2's writing is great *because* it's not politically correct (which in fact it is more than you think).CostinMoroianu said:
Some people forget that video games are made for interactive entertainment. This is not a place for sociological or political discussion. To OP: If you are gay, that's ok, but look for your rights somewhere else.
This thread is entirely off-topic and therefore it should be handled appropriately.
This thread is entirely off-topic and therefore it should be handled appropriately.
- Removal of sex cards.SystemShock7 said:
- Massive decrease in sex.
- Ves, her whole presence screams of PC. The only woman fighter in Temeria. Has to make it absolutely clear that if she wants sex, it's not because she is rewarding you for taking her seriously, but because she wants to have sex.
To name a few. Not the most PC of games, but it still is to an extent (the most un-PC it does is cursing and nudity, which I am totally fine with). And what I mentioned not only do not in any way obstruct TW2 from being great, but they even made it better.
Sex cards were there because they had no way to introduce sex in terms of a cutscene in TW1 whereas they did so in TW2, it allow them to create more sex encounters.
Furthermore Ves is in no way different then White Rayla, except that Ves is the one who suggests sex with Geralt not the other way around.
I don't buy that it's a PC game because of that, it's just a well written, well designed game because it's creative freedom was not limited by people like you who are going on their little social crusade against certain portrayals in art.
Furthermore Ves is in no way different then White Rayla, except that Ves is the one who suggests sex with Geralt not the other way around.
I don't buy that it's a PC game because of that, it's just a well written, well designed game because it's creative freedom was not limited by people like you who are going on their little social crusade against certain portrayals in art.
The thing is, there really is just one argument/counterpoint to the OP, and the gist of it, the OP decided to believe A (Dethmold being castrated) happened specifically because of B (he's a homosexual), and that is just not so.triptrap said:
Nope, we had cutscenes such as Adda. If they wanted quality over quantity, they could have. But clearly they thought "collect them all" was more fun. Now they realize it was stupid and offensive so they took it off.CostinMoroianu said:
And good on them.
White Rayla is someone who lets rape happen without batting an eyelash. Even wants it to happen. Look at Ves and her reaction to the elf Loredo raped. Definitely designed to be a sympathetic character.
And it's not just Ves suggesting the sex. It's her making it absolutely clear what's up. Like she said it twice in the same conversation. It was the writers being extra careful and making it clear that the sex is not a reward and Geralt is not entitled to it. And that was awesome on their part.
Now had they been more PC, they would have endeavored to show Ves fight more so we see her as the warrior they tell us she is (that said, we don't' see the blue stripes in action anyways, so I'll let that pass).
Again, explain it to me. How is TW2 great because it's not PC?
Give me cause and effect. Otherwise, your sentence would be like saying "he is smart because he is not tall." Well he may be smart and he may be short, but how do the two relate causally.
Since you are the one advocating for PC games I'd like to ask you prove how a game is superior just because it is PC.
Mass Effect, Dragon Age and Assassin's Creed are far more PC then TW could ever be but every single one of them falls short of story quality when compare to TW.
Well, this thread sure brought out the worst in some folks. I'll reiterate a point I made in an earlier thread on the same topic, and please forgive me if I missed someone already saying this because I only skimmed the thread:
The problem for me wasn't that TW2 had a homosexual villain. It also has plenty of heterosexual villains, and I don't see anybody complaining that that "portrays heterosexuals in a negative way". The problem was the way the scene was presented, and the way it directly contrasts with Geralt walking in on Philippa and Cynthia earlier in the story. While it's previously been alluded to that Dethmold is probably gay, it's confirmed the moment Geralt and Roche walk into the room, and the way it's presented, it looks like it's supposed to be another reason for the audience to hate him. It's as if the game's saying, look, he's a disgusting homo, on top of everything else, so he deserves what's coming to him. Conversely, Geralt walks in on Cynthia and Philippa, and it's like something out of a bad porno, clearly meant to look sexy. And then the discovery (by both the audience and Geralt/Roche) is followed up with a castration.
I honestly think it's all just kind of an unfortunate coincidence that the scene came together the way it did, but there's nothing wrong with pointing this out and saying maybe it would be a good idea to be more careful in the future. Not to change characters and scenes to cater to some dumb PC sensibility, but because this happened by accident.
Also, I think it's pretty silly to argue you don't want social commentary in a game with a story that's full of references to racism, abuse of power, exploitation and any number of other social themes. It's very, very obviously a reflection of the real world and in some ways a commentary on it, just not in the hackneyed obvious way that stories about "social themes" usually are.
The problem for me wasn't that TW2 had a homosexual villain. It also has plenty of heterosexual villains, and I don't see anybody complaining that that "portrays heterosexuals in a negative way". The problem was the way the scene was presented, and the way it directly contrasts with Geralt walking in on Philippa and Cynthia earlier in the story. While it's previously been alluded to that Dethmold is probably gay, it's confirmed the moment Geralt and Roche walk into the room, and the way it's presented, it looks like it's supposed to be another reason for the audience to hate him. It's as if the game's saying, look, he's a disgusting homo, on top of everything else, so he deserves what's coming to him. Conversely, Geralt walks in on Cynthia and Philippa, and it's like something out of a bad porno, clearly meant to look sexy. And then the discovery (by both the audience and Geralt/Roche) is followed up with a castration.
I honestly think it's all just kind of an unfortunate coincidence that the scene came together the way it did, but there's nothing wrong with pointing this out and saying maybe it would be a good idea to be more careful in the future. Not to change characters and scenes to cater to some dumb PC sensibility, but because this happened by accident.
Also, I think it's pretty silly to argue you don't want social commentary in a game with a story that's full of references to racism, abuse of power, exploitation and any number of other social themes. It's very, very obviously a reflection of the real world and in some ways a commentary on it, just not in the hackneyed obvious way that stories about "social themes" usually are.
Again, missing causal relation.CostinMoroianu said:
PC does not guarantee good writing, nor does it guarantee bad writing. ME and DA are not on the same level of TW not because they are PC (meh not that much), but simply because the writing is not that good.
TW's writing is great because of its portrayal of politics, the moral ambiguity, the great characters, the human antagonists....etc. What does PC have anything to do with this?
Now what I propose is that a lot of PC things (not all of it, I am all for nudity and swearing), when combined with great writing, can improve the overall story. For instance, making sure that women's outfit actually fit the role they are in and are not designed to be eye candy, a more diverse cast of female characters that do not fit in one or two tropes (TW2 does this brilliantly imo), equal nudity (which I know you agree with), more diversity in ethnicity (yea I want to see a zerrikeanean merchant or trader), a more diverse cast of homosexual characters...etc
All these elements, as long as they are combined with good writing that doesn't just put them there for the sake of it but with actual story relevance, would make for a more believable world.
The problem is not PC. The problem is people thinking that by being PC, they can afford to be shit writers.
From the recent examples, I think Bioshock series has pretty great writing and i didn't have many major qualms with it. I'm not saying that there even CAN be a game/novel/movie/whatever that can be completely politically correct. It's simply impossible, since even within social groups there is no agreement what is actualy PC and what isn't. You won't please everyone. The rule of thumb should mostly used in such occasions, along with basic human decency and sensitivity, along with common sense. And why does the reaction here is as though we wanted the Wicher series with all characters suddenly being of sexual orientations other than heterosexual? Is wanting more positive portrayal of LGBTXYZGKSDNF... characters such a radical and revolutionary thing that is still causes such a backslash? Astonishing.CostinMoroianu said:
Well constructed and well written story doesn't have to mean it's been untouched by limitations and policing. Hell, some of the greatest art was made in attempt to sidestep the obstacles. It forces the author to think more creatively, outside the box and gives a chance of producing something truly unique (of course it can also fail, but since 90% of everything is crap... Doesn't mean we should give up)
Why some people answer so quickly with a Go elsewhere to claim instead I think you're wrong by this and this other reason?
A player says his point of view and this thread becomes a battle of rights where OP just has posted 5 times among nearly 500 posts in the 2 first pages before the 24 fulled.Funny.
A player says his point of view and this thread becomes a battle of rights where OP just has posted 5 times among nearly 500 posts in the 2 first pages before the 24 fulled.Funny.
You are reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaching there.KnightofPhoenix said:
Let me counter with:
- Removal of sex cards.
Sex scenes.
- Massive decrease in sex.
Nope. The pace of the game is different. There is an urgency to what's happening and the opportunities for liaisons with the common folk aren't as available as they were in TW1. Still, one can hire prostitutes at any time, and Geralt can get it on with a number of female NPCs and prostitutes, again, all with sex scenes.
- Ves, her whole presence screams of PC. The only woman fighter in Temeria. Has to make it absolutely clear that if she wants sex, it's not because she is rewarding you for taking her seriously, but because she wants to have sex.
Uh? Saskia? Triss? White Rayla? Elf women? (ok Rayla is dead by TW2, but still). And maybe Ves didn't reward you with sex, but the elf woman you saved from the burning tower did. I'll add, if you are the average male, whether she's giving it to you because she wants to, or because she's rewarding you, or because a sparrow flew by the church's steeple on a Wednesday night in April when it rained at midnight on the 3rd quarter of the moon cycle, yoyu'd normally won't care about anything past the "she's giving it to you".
Of course, then we have:
prostitution
rape
child abduction
child murder
homosexuality
torture
bestiality (considering the succubus is half goat.. ok, half bestiality)
Sadomasochism
Lesbianism
Oral sex
Drug use
To name a few.
blueteainfusion: The Bioshock series is far bellow TW series in terms of writing quality. Bioshock, especially infinite, has a lot of writing issue with it.
So bad example.
Because it starts with you and a few others complaining about a certain portrayal of a gay person's death, then CDPR makes gays appear in a more positive light in TW3 ( if you get what you want ), and then it escalates. I would rather CDPR not listen to such requests at all, because once they listen to one who is to say they are not going to listen to more?
I've seen Blizzard Entertainment go down that road. It all started with minor changes but then escalated to where they destroyed the very things that made them great.
So bad example.
Considering the way the gaming industry handles writing placing roadblocks in front of one of the very few companies who has the balls to tackle controversial subjects seems like a dumb idea.
Because it starts with you and a few others complaining about a certain portrayal of a gay person's death, then CDPR makes gays appear in a more positive light in TW3 ( if you get what you want ), and then it escalates. I would rather CDPR not listen to such requests at all, because once they listen to one who is to say they are not going to listen to more?
I've seen Blizzard Entertainment go down that road. It all started with minor changes but then escalated to where they destroyed the very things that made them great.
Wow, almost 500 posts in two days. Congratulations to the OP for arousing the forum! Let me add my post then 
Homosexuality (or at least bisexuality) was pretty common in the Witcher world, especially among sorcerers / sorceresses. Philippa Eilhart is a good example of a positive character, so I believe the right balance has been achieved.
Homosexuality (or at least bisexuality) was pretty common in the Witcher world, especially among sorcerers / sorceresses. Philippa Eilhart is a good example of a positive character, so I believe the right balance has been achieved.
It depends on how we define PC, but I do not regard sex scenes as being not PC. It's not offensive to women in principle. The sex cards collect them all is.SystemShock7 said:
Prostitutes because that's their job. It's not un-PC to have prostitutes get paid for sex.
If they cared to, they would have had a lot more sex, but they didn't. TW1's story was urgent too, and most sex encounters made little sense or came out of nowhere so.
Only woman fighter in an army (which odes not exist in a medieval setting, or are people willign to turn a blind eye to this). Triss is actually portrayed as a weakling in TW2, one of its faults.
And yea Saskia is great too, quite PC except her outfit.
No, the situation is turned on its head. It wasn't a reward, she just wanted to get rid of her debt. It makes you feel bad.
Average male may not care, but women (and decent people) do. The way it was portrayed is clear, Geralt is not entitled to sex nor do you reward people with sex. Sex is something that is mutually consensual.
How is any of that not PC?
Maybe now I understand why people are so terrified of the word here. Not one is un-PC to me. It becomes un-PC if it's portrayed in a way that lacks sensitivity and gravitas. Like if they portrayed child molestation as "lol funny" then yes that would be a problem for anyone with decency.
I mean bioware games have all of the above....like actually, they have every single one.
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