Homosexuality in the Witcher 3

[cmdr_silverbolt]

I am sure they will. And I can refute their arguments.

Not all complains have the same sense of legitimacy and common sense allows one to know the difference.

You used it wrong and I corrected you.

No, you didn't understand what context of it was used.

I'm sorry, but no- complaints can have the same sense of legitimacy depending on how they're colored; like I said, as long as the complaint is about a sensitive, real-life issue, that's all it would take for it to appeal to our "common sense". I don't think it's appropriate to say what arguments can be refuted unless we know of them, but really, in a scenario where you're giving leeway to the idea that such arguments have sway over something, then anything can and should count; after all, we want to make the game as unoffensive as possible, so why shouldn't we care about not offending everyone who believes that they were offended in the past.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

This is exactly what I claimed. If I'm going to draw a real world parallel the parallel will end in Medieval times, and only there.
There isn't even the slimmest chance that I'm going to project the year 2013 on the books or the games.

Because you are still thinking that we are saying homophobia in the game shouldn't be there.

Clearly you do not understand what we are saying. It's the impression that the game, released in 2012, might be promoting or indulging in homophobia that is the problem. If the ambiguity is unintended, what does CDPR stand to lose to make itself clear, which it can do without compromising the story?

The amount of people that where maybe made uncomfortable by various other things is mind blowing.

Not all grievances are equal as a basis to complain and ask for change.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

No, you didn't understand what context of it was used.

There is no context in which "fascism" goes from a totalitarian ideology to "lol dictatorship", unless you'r expecting me to stoop down to 12 year old or American politician level, which I am afraid is beyond my capacity.

If you want to insult my political leanings, do it seriously and correctly, or accept me correcting you.

I'm sorry, but no- complaints can have the same sense of legitimacy depending on how they're colored; like I said, as long as the complaint is about a sensitive, real-life issue, that's all it would take for it to appeal to our "common sense".

No.

Saying that nudity is personally offensive to you in a game that explicitly warned you of nudity, is not the same as the possibility of a game promoting or indulging in homophobia or racism or sexism.

I have no problem at all calling out any such attempts to equalize these two as BS.

 

[blueteainfusion]

This is exactly what I claimed. If I'm going to draw a real world parallel the parallel will end in Medieval times, and only there.
There isn't even the slimmest chance that I'm going to project the year 2013 on the books or the games.

And you would be wrong to not consider parallels to modern world. This would mean you don't understand neither the books nor the games. The Witcher saga is post-modernist literature and as such it takes lots of elements from the modern reality (or in case of books, 80s and 90s) and puts them in the context of fanatsy world. It's not meant to be medival, not even renaissance Europe. It's a fantasy world, where magic, genetics and modern-style politics exist. I don't know what the hell possesses some people to read it as some kind of faithful depiction of the history? It's not and it was never meant to be.

I'm going to bow down from this discussion. It's going in circles and frankly, too much concern trolling going on here. Cheers.

 

[SeasonedWitcher]

Oh look, a storm in a tea cup.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

There is no context in which "fascism" goes from a totalitarian ideology to "lol dictatorship", unless you'r expecting me to stoop down to 12 year old or American politician level, which I am afraid is beyond my capacity.

If you want to insult my political leanings, do it seriously and correctly, or accept me correcting you.

You are deliberately making this into a bigger issue because you misunderstood how the word was used, and that's not my fault. Also, don't disparage nationalities- we're better than that here.

No.

Saying that nudity is personally offensive to you in a game that explicitly warned you of nudity, is not the same as the possibility of a game promoting or indulging in homophobia or racism or sexism.

I have no problem at all calling out any such attempts to equalize these two as BS.

Did you see any reference to nudity in the post to which you're replying? But really, I can't imagine an argument for why someone would find nudity offensive despite being warned about it because I don't share that perspective, just like I couldn't have made an argument for why the Dethmold scene is offensive to gay people, despite being mostly gay myself.

What's important to note is that the reason for personal offense in the Dethmold scenario is perceived and assumed and imagined by some people.

 

[secondchildren]

Saying that nudity is personally offensive to you in a game that explicitly warned you of nudity, is not the same as the possibility of a game promoting or indulging in homophobia or racism or sexism.

I have no problem at all calling out any such attempts to equalize these two as BS.

This absolutely.


It's not likely a matter of political correctness. As long as one character and his nuances are functional to the story, everything is acceptable. I never had the perception that CDPR gave a wink to both sides of homosexuality. But the way they simply represented them is unfair to my point of view.
Totally possible that it is because I'm a female gamer, and I'm sorrounded by videogames targeting at a straight male (geek) audience. Still hard to find a "ugly betty" heroine.
The sex scene between Philippa and Cynthia is absolutely not equal to Dethmold and his guy. Geralt giggles in front of Philippa's door, and both Philippa and Cynthia are appealing female characters. Not the same with Dethmold. Dethmold's partner is ugly and old. Maybe he encounters Dethmold's taste, but it would be different if he were good looking and younger. Different from the viewer's point.
Dethmold is a creep, thus it is supposed that his sexual habits are on this line. Totally acceptable, if Geralt hadn't giggled behind Philippa's door, and there wasn't the "lesbomancy" joke, when Philippa still kisses another gorgeous heroine.

Message to the viewer for me is pretty straight: lesbians are sexy. Men sometimes love to watch lesbians making love. Gays are not. Men do not watch two men making love.
Now if this is homphobic or not, it's not up to me to say, and I honestely don't think that it was intentionally so by CDPR point of view. But from the viewer's point is another story, if you have the sensibility to look at this detail. If it's not a matter of political correctness, then there wasn't a need for Geralt entering the house while Philippa was indulging with her mate. If they wanted to add this detail to Philippa's portrait and personality they could do something better, imo.

If they could spare me this voyeristic malist cheap porno-website platitude, I frankly would appreciate.

And I could say something also about Ves, and her being so well disposed with Geralt, but would be too long. Thankfully they didn't give to the game Saskia as well.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

You are deliberately making this into a bigger issue because you misunderstood how the word was used, and that's not my fault.

Seems to me you just don't want to admit you used the word incorrectly and don't like to be corrected.

Grow up. Either know the meaning of the words you use when accusing someone (we were not joking around. This is a serious discussion). Or refrain from using such words, for they have meaning and you don't get to selectively dictate what they mean.

Don't expect me to not call you out when you are accusing me of fascism.

Did you see any reference to nudity in the post to which you're replying?

It is a general example, used to refute your general argument. That all grievances are equal. Which they are not.

 

[Garrison72]

I respect KOP and his approach to this topic, but I trust CDPR's discretion in this. Let them do what they do. Better than anyone else I might add.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Seems to me you just don't want to admit you used the word incorrectly and don't like to be corrected.

Grow up. Either know the meaning of the words you use when accusing someone (we were not joking around. This is a serious discussion). Or refrain from using such words, for they have meaning and you don't get to selectively dictate what they mean.

Don't expect me to not call you out when you are accusing me of fascism.

It's not my fault that you were, and are still, incapable of determining the context of the word. It's also not my fault that you are unfamiliar with the meanings of words, outside of your limited vocabulary, as used in a post. You don't want to admit you were wrong, and you are accusing me of this, and that's what I find childish.

It is a general example, used to refute your general argument. That all grievances are equal. Which they are not.

All grievances are equal depending on how they're colored, for example, take the scenario about which we're talking.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

It's not my fault that you were, and are still, incapable of determining the context of the word.

There is no context that justifies over-simplification and just plain inaccuracy when using political terminology, especially when used to accuse someone.

Me calling you out on your ignorance is the price you pay for wanting to discuss something seriously with me. If you don't like it, I suggest you avoid arguing with me.

 

[Helghan]

The sex scene between Philippa and Cynthia is absolutely not equal to Dethmold and his guy. Geralt giggles in front of Philippa's door, and both Philippa and Cynthia are appealing female characters. Not the same with Dethmold. Dethmold's partner is ugly and old. Maybe he encounters Dethmold's taste, but it would be different if he were good looking and younger. Different from the viewer's point.
Dethmold is a creep, thus it is supposed that his sexual habits are on this line. Totally acceptable, if Geralt hadn't giggled behind Philippa's door, and there wasn't the "lesbomancy" joke, when Philippa still kisses another gorgeous heroine.

To be honest I dont think its fair to compare these 3 scenes.

With Philippa and Cynthia Geralt catches them while they are having their little spanking session and he giggles because he likes the idea, men in general would react the same, as you yourself has mentioned. With lesbomancy, Philippa does kiss Saskia and as above our dwarf likes the idea and cracks a joke. Now both Geralt and the dwarf sees or are close enough to know what is happening and react to it according to their own tastes.

With Dethmold however, he and his pal are not doing anything in particular, they would have in a couple minutes, but thats besides the point. Dethmold sits at his desk while his friend is at the bed, when Roche and Geralt knock down the door and barge in. Geralt and Roche do not react to what was happening in the room, they dont care, they only went in because Dethmold was in the room and they leave as soon as they are done with their business with him.

And I doubt the scene would change in the slightest if Dethmold would have been having 1on1 sessions with Adonis himself. His partner was only there to illustrate the sorcerer was in downtime, with not a care in the world, vulnerable.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

There is no context that justifies over-simplification and just plain inaccuracy when using political terminology, especially when used to accuse someone.

Me calling you out on your ignorance is the price you pay for wanting to discuss something seriously with me. If you don't like it, I suggest you avoid arguing with me.

It's not "over simplification" or even "inaccurate", the context of the word is perfectly used as it can be used, besides its other meanings, and it's not my fault if you're unaware of such contexts.

You can "call me out" all you want, that won't make you right in what you're saying.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

If it's not a matter of political correctness, then there wasn't a need for Geralt entering the house while Philippa was indulging with her mate. If they wanted to add this detail to Philippa's portrait and personality they could do something better, imo.

I have a slight objection in that I think the dynamic between Cynthia and Philippa is very important to explore to understand how events unfolded and how was it that Cynthia was able to fool the great Eilhart.

It is also my belief that Philippa acted deliberately in order to distract everyone in Vergen and to distract Geralt from thinking too much about the Triss figurine sitting on her desk.

I could however be entirely wrong and that the scene was primarily designed as eye candy for straight men (although a lesbian friend of mine loved the scene haha). In fact I am sure that eye candy played an important role in how the scene was portrayed.

It is likely though that CDPR could have found a better way to show the Philipa / Cynthia dynamic. Which is really what's at the crux of the thread,or should have been. CDPR should endeavor to be as aware and careful as possible, without compromising the story they want to tell.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

It's not "over simplification" or even "inaccurate", the context of the word is perfectly used as it can be used, besides its other meanings, and it's not my fault if you're unaware of such contexts.

Fascism does not have other meanings, it only has one. Either you use it in that meaning, or you don't use it at all and avoid the embarrassment.

 

[MarcAuron]

Because you are still thinking that we are saying homophobia in the game shouldn't be there.

Never stated anything even remotely similar, unless of course someone wishes to see it that way.

Clearly you do not understand what we are saying.

For the third time, I do as stated in my previous posts.

And again:

It's the impression that the game, released in 2012, might be promoting or indulging in homophobia that is the problem.

It is the impression that the game, released in 2012, might be promoting or indulging in homophobia that is the problem, for those that want to get that kind of a impression.

If the ambiguity is unintended, what does CDPR stand to lose to make itself clear, which it can do without compromising the story?

If there is a ambiguity, CDPR may decide to make itself clear, the right to demand to make themselves clear in a creative process belongs to no one.

It cannot be done however without a cheap tactic, adding for example another reason to hate Dethmold.
So a way of escaping from the assumption that somewhere someone might be offended by the misconstruction it isn't even a implication, that a gay man was castrated for being gay, they are overthrowing a initial premise of a story.
And this is the direct way of overthrowing other premises of a story , whenever a there is a popular demand.

Not all grievances are equal as a basis to complain and ask for change.

All grievances as equal, it's what makes us individuals.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

It is likely though that CDPR could have found a better way to show the Philipa / Cynthia dynamic. Which is really what's at the crux of the thread,or should have been. CDPR should endeavor to be as aware and careful as possible, without compromising the story they want to tell.

I don't think it's appropriate for anyone to tell a writer how to tell their story- if they think they want to do a certain scene, then so be it. How people end up feeling about a scene is difficult to predict, and shouldn't be accounted for when designing such scenarios; excluding scenarios of blatant offense, of course (but that's my personal feeling).

Really people, do you police the websites of various directors for having including a movie scene which offended you.

Fascism does not have other meanings, it only has one. Either you use it in that meaning, or you don't use it at all and avoid the embarrassment.

Like I said, it's not my fault that your vocabulary is limited. What's embarrassing is that you think that the sociopolitical meaning of fascism is something one would need to be particularly well-read in order to know; people learn this in middle-school, get over yourself.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

If there is a ambiguity, CDPR may decide to make itself clear, the right to demand to make themselves clear in a creative process belongs to no one.

No one is making demands. Fans, who love the game, are pointing to something they found problematic and are asking CDPR to take it into consideration.

The rest we already argued about it to death and we keep repeating ourselves.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Really people, do you police the websites of various directors for having including a movie scene which offended you.

I have sent letters and participated in petitions about scenes I found offensive, yes.

Because I am a fascist thought police like that. Thinking of upgrading to nazism while I am at it.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

I have sent letters and participated in petitions about scenes I found offensive, yes.

Because I am a fascist thought police like that. Thinking of upgrading to nazism while I am at it.

Then that's your business, obviously, and good for you. It does not make your stance legitimate in this case because your offense is imagined at best.