Are you saying the patrons can sue dolls for breach of contract if they aren't pleased? That sounds more messed up.
Are you saying the patrons can sue dolls for breach of contract if they aren't pleased? That sounds more messed up.
I definitely appreciated that about Judy's narrative but it didn't give me any insight concerning the doll chips other than the fact she could weaponise them. I didn't say the game lacks an emotional breakdown or anything - I literally pointed out an example in that post. What I'm saying is, you never see anyone get upset over the doll chip specifically and, because of that, it's not clear (outside of a lore entry and a note buried in Judy's apartment) just how exploitative it really is. Yes, I got the general sense that working at Clouds sucks, but I was under the impression that was more to do with the Tyger Claws, rather than the chip itself. I had no idea they were unaware during their sessions and couldn't use a safe word, for instance.
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Are you saying the patrons can sue dolls for breach of contract if they aren't pleased? That sounds more messed up.
their contract is with clouds, so no. Can clouds sue dolls? probably but I doubt it would go to court, they would probably withhold money, possibly fire them. They were going to kill Evelyn though. I don't know if thats in the contract, or sometype of cyberpsycho law though.
It's called an unenforceable contract. Organized criminals today use similar methods to bring a veil of legitimacy to dealings. These contracts wouldn't hold up to scrutiny in court however and more about their psychological effect. Heck, even R Kelly had contracts, non-disclosure agreements, and signed affidavits with his nonsense. That's why they killed Evelyn instead of taking her to court.
But apart from the letter of dystopian law the entire concept of dolls is in the toilet, ethically speaking.
Where did you find details on the chip? my understanding is the dolls are conscious, but allowing the chip to dictate their actions. Then they are instantly memory wiped when the encounter is over. Not saying thats riteous, just that they are conscious.
"Doll houses are this concept that is quite interesting, in terms of the Cyberpunk world,” Tomaszkiewicz said. “Imagine you have people who have specific cyberware that allows them to attune to the client. And after the job is done, it allows them to forget what they were doing during the session."
that said, is your only beef with the whole process, the idea of continuous consent?
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court in this society would side with them, corporations do the same thing. The only reason corpo V isn't dead is because a solo(jackie) told them he would create problems if they tried.
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ok, that quote means they are unaware after, not during. They would not need to be memory wiped if they were not conscious/aware at the time.
so does that make it ok, from your perspective?
I doubt that, Night City seems like place where authorities only have a tenuous grip on control. Corps murdering their employees isn't legal, it's just ignored.
I get you, but I think its written in to the laws as well.
I think, the laws are written such that if it came to court, they would have an excuse. If you scan people and look at their offenses, there's a ton of people with corporate crimes, and you are allowed to claim bounties dead or alive. V they could probably have killed V for, corporate theft (she had corporate cyberware in her) threatening a corporate (she had a thumb drive with a plot to take out abernathy)
the law is written for and by business.
For real? It explicitly says DURING. Here's the quote: "the dolls are completely unaware of what happens to them during the session". How is that unclear?
I have no idea why they still get a memory wipe - if I had to guess it could be because despite being unaware during the session, the brain is still "recording" the activity. If the memory isn't wiped, then that could mean the worker could become aware of what just happened, after waking up.
And no, of course I don't think that would make it okay.
Haven't dug all details inside the game about the dolls, but here something from an interview. For me, it sounds like they are aware of what they're doing. Probably for this reason Judy wants to invent something that can break the session if necessary.
www.thegamer.com
"Doll houses are a place where people can go to live out their fantasies, and they don’t even have to say what those fantasies are. A sex worker hooks into their brain, digs down into the deepest recesses, and finds out what you want. "
“Doll houses are this concept that is quite interesting, in terms of the Cyberpunk world,” Tomaszkiewicz said. “Imagine you have people who have specific cyberware that allows them to attune to the client. And after the job is done, it allows them to forget what they were doing during the session. "
Cyberpunk 2077 Sex Workers Hack Your Fantasies Then Delete Their Own Memory
Cyberpunk 2077 sex workers use a concept called "doll houses" to live out your fantasies.
www.thegamer.com
"Doll houses are a place where people can go to live out their fantasies, and they don’t even have to say what those fantasies are. A sex worker hooks into their brain, digs down into the deepest recesses, and finds out what you want. "
“Doll houses are this concept that is quite interesting, in terms of the Cyberpunk world,” Tomaszkiewicz said. “Imagine you have people who have specific cyberware that allows them to attune to the client. And after the job is done, it allows them to forget what they were doing during the session. "
Haven't dug all details inside the game about the dolls, but here something from an interview. For me, it sounds like they are aware of what they're doing. Probably for this reason Judy wants to invent something that can break the session if necessary.
Cyberpunk 2077 Sex Workers Hack Your Fantasies Then Delete Their Own Memory
Cyberpunk 2077 sex workers use a concept called "doll houses" to live out your fantasies.
"Doll houses are a place where people can go to live out their fantasies, and they don’t even have to say what those fantasies are. A sex worker hooks into their brain, digs down into the deepest recesses, and finds out what you want. "
“Doll houses are this concept that is quite interesting, in terms of the Cyberpunk world,” Tomaszkiewicz said. “Imagine you have people who have specific cyberware that allows them to attune to the client. And after the job is done, it allows them to forget what they were doing during the session. "
An old interview is a bit immaterial considering the game's database clearly says they're unaware.
Well, I think what you're identifying is the very direct attempt to make it seem as horrible as it is. The entire premise of the game is "dark vision of the future". Elements are specifically designed to be beyond abhorrent and terrible...yet readily accepted by the society of Night City.
In short, I think the entire premise of the universe is an attempt to explore what reality would look like when people become so dissociated from the concept of "humanity" that it literally stops mattering to many people. For example, when a person would willingly submit themselves to be prostituted, and are more or less "okay" with it since they'll have no memories of it afterward, anyway. It's a complete lack of self worth and willingness to engage in depravity -- and in this world it's mostly celebrated because such people often do a lot better for themselves, financially and socially, than people that try to remain true to their virtues.
The great divide occurs when we compare the reality presented here to the values we presently hold. We can draw some uncomfortably close parallels in many places. (And discussing the specifics here would be walking the edge of the cliff over real-life issues -- so please don't.) But that's largely the purpose of any dystopian theme: to allow a modern audience to explore what the complete breakdown of human values may look like, and what it could mean for human society as a whole.
Thus, if this topic is an area of contention or upset -- I'd say understanding of the subtext is spot-on.
I don't know how old the interview is. The article is published on 18/09/2020. Even with last minute changes I doubt that CDPR concept is changed that much.
I suspect the game avoids presenting the screwed up nature of the doll chips in an overt manner on purpose. There are subtle and vague hints certain characters abhor the concept but not much else. Instead it chooses to present is as yet another routine, screwed up practice in NC. In the process depicting how far the dystopian society in NC has fallen. Sometimes what isn't said or presented can provide an equally impactful and disturbing message.
I'm confused, why was I quoted there? AikoHayashi was speculating that they are awake, and I was simply pointing out the fact the game canon establishes otherwise - i.e. putting that mystery to bed. There wasn't any deeper meaning to that post.
Are you responding to what you think my general position is or something? Or something I've said in another post?
Indeed, my bad, the game DB says literally that they are unaware. My major point with the interview was that CDPR sees the dolls more like something positive and maybe that's the reason that they didn't go really deep into this topic.
If I recall correctly, the concept of a doll chip originates out of William Gibson's Neuromancer, at least in any real description. Molly Millions was a doll, and using her wages from being one, to buy the cyberware including her famous razor tipped fingers, when something conflicted between the doll chip in her, and the new cyberware, causing her to turn her client into something best left undescribed.
I think, and this is merely speculation on my part...that "consent" is part of accepting a doll chip. In other words, the going train of thought is that if you are going to chrome yourself up with one, you are consenting to having sex without knowing who you clients are, and what they do. There's a old saying that goes "...comes with the territory.." and I think that applies specifically in this situation, as taking a doll chip, means that sex with unknowns "..comes with the territory...".
I think, and this is merely speculation on my part...that "consent" is part of accepting a doll chip. In other words, the going train of thought is that if you are going to chrome yourself up with one, you are consenting to having sex without knowing who you clients are, and what they do. There's a old saying that goes "...comes with the territory.." and I think that applies specifically in this situation, as taking a doll chip, means that sex with unknowns "..comes with the territory...".
To discuss what is objectively rape it is to discuss the law because that is what gives that what gives it definite definition. That definition you subscribe to likely comes from precedent in a court case. When the law is not at work the meaning of what is rape as in sex without consent, becomes subjective based on how the victim and others around them perceived it. To you and to me it is rape, to the victim is just a job, to another victim it is rape, but it is necessity to live or being pressed to do it under duress.
I'm just responding to the discussion in general, not your post in particular really. Although, I am taking the "they are officially unaware" bit and trying to show how I am very confident that was not an attempt to make their job seem "okay" or "better" -- but quite to the contrary, I think it was a very intentional attempt to make the act of prostitution even more dehumanizing and abhorrent in the world of CP.
(Or in other words, I'm bouncing off your statement, not directly responding to it.)