How effective should law enforcement be?

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

How effective should law enforcement be?

Simply put, how effective should law enforcement be?

EDIT: Meaning across several types of crimes, not just the mass murders or attack on a police station which should obviously be met with a response.

E.g. discreet murders, the Hercules poirot type of thing. white collar crimes, etc.

And should you ever be able to beat the NCPD?
Bribe it?
attack its infrastructure?

Discuss.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Something you don't fuck with without thinking twice and being well prepared.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Moar details plz?

 

[Suhiira]

About as efficient as they currently are.

The thing with CyberPunk is the number of police hasn't really increased but the population has boomed. So they're even more overworked then they are now. Thus small scale crime (minor theft/robbery/mugging/assault, prostitution, pushing, etc.) is pretty much ignored UNLESS they just happen to be right there when it happens.
Larger scale crime (mass murder, major theft, drug suppliers, car theft rings, etc.) should be actively pursued by police, with a success rate similar to what we have now, nearly 100%, eventually. No they're NOT going to be all over petty criminals or even major ones the first incident or two, but eventually the scale of the criminal activity WILL get their attention, and when it does the perps are screwed, PERIOD.
Sure, on occasion people will get away with an isolated spectacular crime (The Great Train Robbery, DB Cooper) but this is because they are singular incidents. Do you really think they could have gotten away with the same crime three or four times?

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Moar details plz?

I see you edited the OP... Here's few more details.

I'd want a persistent crime system where things build up. And the PD to be a thing to fear; not inescapable or completely unavoidable, but something that will keep you on your toes and will not forget if you cross the law. That once you have enough on your account, they will vehemently hunt you down. And if it was you alone against the PD in open battle, there should be little chances for you to survive (no GTA style rampages agains an army). A system where petty crimes (if you are caught or are seen) get you fines but pile up for an eventual arrest warrant.

That could mean that you have your chances to bribe or speak your way out if getting caught, but if not succesful, you spend some jail time with additional fines. And for the player to care about that, there needs to be consequences and reactions from the game. Certain groups should take notice of these things and react in good or bad depending on the group, there should be dynamic quests that might "fail" or whose conditions might worsen while you are sitting your time, quests that are prevented by a criminal record, NPC's that do not interact with criminals. The criminal record effectively closing doors from you for certain quests, vendors, groups, buildings, locking you out of certain content. The PD's tolerance will get lower and you get hunted down more and more easily and need to be ever more careful. That's a lot of negatives, but there could also be positivie effects to it; such as certain NPC's only interacting with hefty criminal record, some gangs looking up to you more favorably when you are more like them, these interactions opening quests, interactions and merhcandise not otherwise obtainable.

There should be consequences, tradeoffs to think about, but since there is a lot of lawlessness in the city, there should also be opportunities that way.

There are skills for disguises and stealth to help you avoid the patrols and whatnot, there can be bribery of certain corrupt officials to ease your situation (though I don't think it should ever be possible to completely erase your record, nor should these ways of avoiding and evading ever be surefire ways to bail you out from responsibility, but just means of coping with it). The role you pick might have an effect - eg. if you are a cop, certain things might be looked past to preserve the reputation of the force and you might have easier time talking yourself out of a shit situation; if you are a corp, you might have easier and cheaper time bribing the officials; if you're a rockerboy, your celebrity status might be held as a mitigating circumstance for lesser crimes; if you are a solo, you are on your own with no bonuses....

You could keep track on your criminal record by hacking the police database (if you have the skill) from your pocket computer or what ever, or you could buy the info from "shady sources", or if you are a cop, you could have free access to it. That might sound a bit off the topic, but it could be considered in-game efficiency of the police to have that information under "guard" and have the player need to actually do something to obtain it (on regular basis if there should be updates).

...for examples sake.

 

[Vincentdante]

About as efficient as they currently are.

The thing with CyberPunk is the number of police hasn't really increased but the population has boomed. So they're even more overworked then they are now. Thus small scale crime (minor theft/robbery/mugging/assault, prostitution, pushing, etc.) is pretty much ignored UNLESS they just happen to be right there when it happens.
Larger scale crime (mass murder, major theft, drug suppliers, car theft rings, etc.) should be actively pursued by police, with a success rate similar to what we have now, nearly 100%, eventually. No they're NOT going to be all over petty criminals or even major ones the first incident or two, but eventually the scale of the criminal activity WILL get their attention, and when it does the perps are screwed, PERIOD.
Sure, on occasion people will get away with an isolated spectacular crime (The Great Train Robbery, DB Cooper) but this is because they are singular incidents. Do you really think they could have gotten away with the same crime three or four times?

I like this but in terms of game mechanics might be hard to pull off. Although, I like this.

 

[Suhiira]

I like this but in terms of game mechanics might be hard to pull off. Although, I like this.

Not really.
Just add a "Total_Crimes" counter to the character. Every time your character commits a criminal act it's increased by 1 (or more if it's a major act) and as it reaches certain stages NPC police begin to react.

Stage 1 - Arrest Warent (if stopped/questioned for anything you'll be arrested)
Stage 2 - Task Force actively following you (not necessarily trying to arrest you but ALWAYS following)
Stage 3 - APB (Every cop that sees you will report it and they will converge on your location if you linger)
Stage 4 - SWAT or similar actively hunting you
Stage 5 - State/Federal help brought in ... Congrats you're now on the 10 Most Wanted List

 

[Decatonkeil]

I think it would be funny to have our misdeeds investigated overtime from the police and having them try to get us a lot of time later. I don't think that's ever been done in a videogame in a non-scripted way. Imagine you perform some kind of crime or leave some kind of evidence of yuor presence in a crime scene in a particular district of the city: the CPU as the GM could make a contested roll using the overall level of the police in that district and maybe your character's ability to generally hide tracks and set maybe a timer for how long it would take for them to locate you without informing the player of what's happening. Now if the character were to say swap safehouses or whatever, the track would dilude. Maybe it can't be done, I don't know.

 

[Suhiira]

It could be done, but in order to be effective it would all have to be "behind the scenes" so the player would have no idea they need to lay low or for how long.
And in addition to the inevitable screams by some players that they should be fully aware (how or why I'm clueless) of the manhunt two questions come to mind.
#1 - While a specific instance of the cops being after you may peter out if you lay low long enough their over all desire to catch your butt would hardly be effected.
#2 - Just what is a player going to do while their character sits twiddling their thumbs for 5, 10, 60 minutes in the safe house while the manhunt slacks off?

 

[Decatonkeil]

It could be done, but in order to be effective it would all have to be "behind the scenes" so the player would have no idea they need to lay low or for how long.
And in addition to the inevitable screams by some players that they should be fully aware (how or why I'm clueless) of the manhunt two questions come to mind.
#1 - While a specific instance of the cops being after you may peter out if you lay low long enough their over all desire to catch your butt would hardly be effected.
#2 - Just what is a player going to do while their character sits twiddling their thumbs for 5, 10, 60 minutes in the safe house while the manhunt slacks off?

I didn't really mean staying in a safehouse for that period of time, it was more like instead of using the one that you've been using lately, using another one. Waiting is no fun, right? So what we tend to do in game safehouses is either save, heal or make the time go faster... or any combination of those. In Vice City you could own a mansion and even a dirty squatter shack. Properties had different prizes and perks that came with them like garages and helicopters, etc, but you wanted to buy them all because you would have a place to heal, save, lose notoriety and skip 6 hours or so of game time scattered all around the map. What if the notoriety just didn't drop if you went to the same very visible and flamboyant safehouse where your neighbours know you that you've been using for a time, but instead had to exile yourself to another part of town?

 

[Suhiira]

I suppose multiple properties and automatic passage of time could work.
BUT - depending on just how high your infamy is with the cops there's every reason they'd randomly learn about these save houses and stake them out or raid them looking for your very wanted tush. Eventually you WOULD run out of places to hide assuming your infamy got high enough. Sorry folks but I don't buy "just wait long enough and they'll stop looking for you" or "no matter what you've done you can get away with it".

 

[Sardukhar]

Sorry folks but I don't buy "just wait long enough and they'll stop looking for you" or "no matter what you've done you can get away with it".

There's real-world precedent for this, though. As you know, active cases drop off, even with serious crimes. In the future, with easy new face implants and Netrunners to dump your trail, I'd guess they drop off even faster.

In Cyberpunk 2020, it's even simpler and Protect and Serve pretty much spells it out, iirc - resources are simply too tight. Cops die in the line of duty every day in 2020, even more so than in the real world.

As for running out of places to hide, I'm sure Law Enforcement would love if that was true, but it simply isn't. Unless someone turns you in or you screw up, you can stay hidden for decades. Or get a new identity for 300 eb. Then there's the Corporations who don't want LE looking too hard in certain places or at certain identities and possess the means to make it stop.

I'd say that depending on infamy level, if the player can avoid direct police attention long enough to get a new face and/or ID, they are pretty good to go. If they can hide out long enough for something worse to happen, ( 24 hrs in Night City - less in Summer or around Christmas!) they are good to go. If they can get to the Combat Zone, they are fine. Well, not fine, but they have other issues at that point.

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah stuff does "drop off" the radar, in weeks, not hours/days.

 

[blank_redge]

...I know I've commented on the topic previously, but I couldn't find prior posts (read: gave up after only two pages of search results. Instant gratification now! =p )

I want police response to be intelligent. If I run a red light or get into a minor fender bender, I don't expect police to go from zero-to-gunfire immediately. I'd like to see an intelligent escalation of response, appropriate to the level of aggression being shown by the player.

If a player *is* able to ditch the cops after a pursuit, or otherwise has enough minor, petty offenses that they're starting to build up some sort of recognition with NCPD, might be a good in-game contrivance for changing character appearance (hairstyle, wardrobe, cosmetic surgery, etc.)

 

[Harthwain]

Yeah stuff does "drop off" the radar, in weeks, not hours/days.

There is a difference between reality and games.

Nobody wants to wait weeks in hiding somewhere for the cops to drop their attention because player killed a random NPC in the street. Avoiding the law can be done by different - and more interesting - means. Identity change, false papers, different look, moving in places where police is less frequent and there are no cameras...

Police needs to know you're the killer. They need a weapon. Or a witness. There should be something linking you with the situation. Otherwise how the police can know you did the deed? Even if they have proof it can be stolen and witness can have an accident. With no proof police should drop the charges. Something like Hitman: Absolution. You should be able to use other means as well. Bribery, smart talk, disguise...

It's much better than reaching a safehouse. Or the whole safehouse idea.

 

[MohawkJon_1311.866]

There's real-world precedent for this, though. As you know, active cases drop off, even with serious crimes. In the future, with easy new face implants and Netrunners to dump your trail, I'd guess they drop off even faster.

In Cyberpunk 2020, it's even simpler and Protect and Serve pretty much spells it out, iirc - resources are simply too tight. Cops die in the line of duty every day in 2020, even more so than in the real world.

As for running out of places to hide, I'm sure Law Enforcement would love if that was true, but it simply isn't. Unless someone turns you in or you screw up, you can stay hidden for decades. Or get a new identity for 300 eb. Then there's the Corporations who don't want LE looking too hard in certain places or at certain identities and possess the means to make it stop.

I'd say that depending on infamy level, if the player can avoid direct police attention long enough to get a new face and/or ID, they are pretty good to go. If they can hide out long enough for something worse to happen, ( 24 hrs in Night City - less in Summer or around Christmas!) they are good to go. If they can get to the Combat Zone, they are fine. Well, not fine, but they have other issues at that point.

This sounds pretty reasonable to me. Cops can't find you if your face changes. I'm curious to see how the factor that in.

 

[atomowyturysta]

generally I would like law enforcement to be:
1. You fucked up with some beat cops? You kill them with some effort (in cyberpunk those guys and gals are tough, traineg and dont give a fuck), escape and need to keep low for some time or see 2.
2. You fucked up with MaxTac? You probably die in the process.
3. You fucked up with CIA, NSA or sth? See 4.
4. You fucked up with NSA, CIA, Militech or Arasaka Black Op Team? Your character never existed Unless it's forced by the story
5. No GTA whatsoever. You run over sb with your car (if there are cars) see 1.

And I have strong hope that you can play as a COP.

In my pnp games doing stupid things against somemone that has superior numbers, superior firepower, superior armor, superior training, superior tactics, superior intel and superior motivation is an endgame. Go attack Seal Team Six on a mission. You never existed.

 

[Suhiira]

Go attack Seal Team Six on a mission. You never existed.

Sure you did.
You're called a "Short live fire training exercise."

 

[blank_redge]

Hm. The thread has gone in an interesting direction.

Do we want / expect our characters to encounter any of the high-speed law enforcement (read: and/or military) agencies of the world? or anyone of that caliber? (SEALs, GSG 9, Spetsnaz, Mossad, MI6, etc.)

I'd imagine the average 'Punk from the streets would wind up very dead, very quick (or otherwise wind up in over their head) if they wound up in the sights of one of these agencies.

 

[Suhiira]

Hm. The thread has gone in an interesting direction.

Do we want / expect our characters to encounter any of the high-speed law enforcement (read: and/or military) agencies of the world? or anyone of that caliber? (SEALs, GSG 9, Spetsnaz, Mossad, MI6, etc.)

I'd imagine the average 'Punk from the streets would wind up very dead, very quick (or otherwise wind up in over their head) if they wound up in the sights of one of these agencies.

Want?
Surely not, if you're remotely sane.
But inevitably some players are going to attempt the time honored "kill every NPC in the game" approach. It would be nice if the game was designed to react to this realistically, i.e. the character winds up a blood stain.
Realistically specialized military agencies (SEALs rec.) would never get involved in anything like this, but some sort of national level agency (ATF or whatever) will have the resources to deal with it because that's what they exist for in the first place. And while not "military" they have access to and training with military hardware.