how huge is Arasaka's army? [poll]

[Sild]

Well, fairly cheap is still probably upwards of... whatever the eurodollar equivalent of 500 mil USD is, but yeah, a Carrier fleet is extremely unlikely. One made of frigates or even destroyers would make more sense since it's main purpose wouldn't be conquest or power projection.

 

[Suhiira]

Well, fairly cheap is still probably upwards of... whatever the eurodollar equivalent of 500 mil USD is, but yeah, a Carrier fleet is extremely unlikely. One made of frigates or even destroyers would make more sense since it's main purpose wouldn't be conquest or power projection.

Certainly doable, and enough deterrent to keep any other Corp at bay, and even smaller nations (a small nation might be able to win but at what cost in men/material).

 

[Syware]

Now that we figured how big the army is, let's figure out the the nationalities of the troops . Are most of its army Japanese or most of the army is recruited locally where its based in different locations around the world?

 

[j3lly_m3lly]

Depends a LOT on what that "fleet" consisted of.
Gun frigates are fairly cheap, and I doubt they had an aircraft carrier ... not due to cost but because of the skills and training necessary to operate one. It takes years to develop and hone these (and this is why those crusty old Chief Petty Officers are so vital).

Almost anyone can learn to fly an aircraft, but very few people have the reflexes and skills needed to be a fighter pilot, and even fewer have the skills needed to take off and land on a ship.

let's put aside that the aircraft carriers in the world of cyberpunk could need like max 1 man on computer with basic training to oversee the AI and that corporation troops that are enhanced with bioware and cyberware have their abilities and learning skills incomparable with any real world man. what would stop corporations from training some of their troops in operating real world aircraft carriers? Arasaka for example has 24/7 huge underground training facilities that are training at least 500 troops at any given moment.

Now that we figured how big the army is, let's figure out the the nationalities of the troops . Are most of its army Japanese or most of the army is recruited locally where its based in different locations around the world?

i don't think Arasaka would care too much about where their unit was recruited from as long as it's capable and loyal, so it makes sense that they would be recruited locally, however i think that some part of Arasaka's army is japanese considering how much political power they got in japan and that they are having their largest training facilities in there. however in 2020 there was already bioengineery technology that was used to efficient cloning. i think that in 2077 corporations would be able to mass produce bioengineered humans into their armies and freely alter their DNA during production so they all wouldn't be just same exact clone of each other which would make them predictable, but invidual units that makes different choices on the battlefield.

 

[Suhiira]

Arasaka for example has 24/7 huge underground training facilities that are training at least 500 troops at any given moment.

The US Marine Corps is apx. 186,000 strong, and they annually train about 38,000 new recruits ... that's apx. 9,500 in training at any given moment.

The Arasaka "military" is pretty small I'd say.

 

[doktor_fleck]

The US Marine Corps is apx. 186,000 strong, and they annually train about 38,000 new recruits ... that's apx. 9,500 in training at any given moment.

The Arasaka "military" is pretty small I'd say.

Comparing a separate military branch of the most powerful country on earth with a force of a private company is not a good example I think.

 

[Suhiira]

Comparing a separate military branch of the most powerful country on earth with a force of a private company is not a good example I think.

I'm just comparing numbers to get an estimate how large Arasaka's "forces" are likely to be.

 

[atomowyturysta]

Now that we figured how big the army is, let's figure out the the nationalities of the troops . Are most of its army Japanese or most of the army is recruited locally where its based in different locations around the world?

In 2020 it seemed that the core of their forces were Japanese nationals. Support units and cannon fodder mad of mixed nationalities and some ad hoc mercenary units. In 2045 Arasaka is but a shadow of it's former glory and is considered Japanese corp not a multinatational. Also it seems their focus changed from global domination to just making money by the service rendered. What it would look like in 2077? Hard to tell, but the first gameplay suggested that Militech is a big fish now, probably again out of the government leash and out for some dominating.

 

[j3lly_m3lly]

The US Marine Corps is apx. 186,000 strong, and they annually train about 38,000 new recruits ... that's apx. 9,500 in training at any given moment.

The Arasaka "military" is pretty small I'd say.

i was mentioning only a single 1 of their underground training facilities

Comparing a separate military branch of the most powerful country on earth with a force of a private company is not a good example I think.

how so?

 

[doktor_fleck]

i was mentioning only a single 1 of their underground training facilities



how so?

Different scale for a start.

 

[j3lly_m3lly]

Different scale for a start.

just because organization is private, it doesn't mean that it needs to have lower scale

 

[atomowyturysta]

just because organization is private, it doesn't mean that it needs to have lower scale

In 2020 the net worth of all Arasaka assets is aroung 500 billion e$. That's roughly the economy of medium size country like Canada or Poland. They maintain militaries around 70k and 90k strong. Sure, they could maintain twice that much. That means that the peak ability for Arasaka is somewhere around 150k. Still, nowhere close to millions. And in 2077 they are the upstarts, not the established corporate power. They've been destroyed in 2024.
Also, as people mentioned. Army needs money. Corporation reason for existance is money. Army does not make money, unless you hire your army to third parties. In that case it is not your army to use at your convinience anymore. And still, Arasaka is one big corporation, but it is ONE. There're hundreds of corporations operating in the country like US. And the states, even though fresh out of a global collapse and in some kind of crisis (it's cyberpunk, you must have US in crisis, that's the blueprint) it's economy is probably way into trillions. That's why countries field armies and corporations usually don't. If they do, they field small, elastic, hight tech forces. 100k is a small force. Way too large for any logical reason but the narrative. So most people should be ok. As for a Corp having a 8 million strong military, not to mention 70 million. Today, with main powers on the planet rearming, all militaries combined from US, through Australia to panama (which has no military whatsoever) have less than 8 active million troops total (and can barely afford them) And the world's economy total is less than 90 trillion. If Arasaka was to field 8 million military. THEY WOULD BE THE WORLD.

 

[Sardukhar]

In 2020 the net worth of all Arasaka assets is aroung 500 billion e$. That's roughly the economy of medium size country like Canada

Well, this is wrongo. Canada's GDP is 1.73 trillion. Yes, trillion with a T. We are the 10th largest GDP in the world. We are, frankly, an economic powerhouse. Our natural resources are valued at 33 trillion, fourth in the world. An "energy superpower" to quote Wikipedia.

As for Arasaka's valuation at 475 billion, a couple things have to be noted: the Corpbook that comes from was written in 1990, and is valued to 1990 dollars estimate for 2020. In the late 80s, IBM was worth about $20 per share and was absolutely a megacorporation.

Today, in late 2019, there shares are worth $140/share. And IBM is no Apple or Google - they are a fairly blue-chip, steady-growth company. 700% growth over 30 years.

Using that multiplier for Arasaka, they would be worth not 500 billion dollars but 3.5 trillion dollars in terms of being a powerful megacorp if R. Talsorian wrote them today. In other words, staggering wealth. Which is what R.Tal wanted you to think when you read 475 BILLION dollars in 1990.


Secondly, and what I impress on all my players, is that a lot of the stuff in those Corpbooks is subject to error. Merrill Asukaga and Finch don't know everything. As the book says, "Remember, our suggestions are just that...suggestions!".

You want to impress on players not that Arasaka is worth 500 billion, but that they are staggeringly wealthy - Google Plus scale. That's the point of the Corpbooks and the data therein.

As for the size of Arasaka's army, the original topic, well.

Walmart today employs 2.1 million people. McDonald's 1.9 million. Assume Arasaka by 2077 is -the- Security company by 2077 (debatable) and the population has recovered to our current levels (also debatable) that means 2 million people.

How many are soldiers/guards? Well, good question. The US Army (just the Army, mind you, not the NG or Reserve) has some 460,000 members or so. 15% of those are infantry. Let's assume Arasaka, being efficient, double the amount of their personnel that serve as combat arms. But, wait, Arasaka is spread out allll over the world, means transport, logistics, commo, etc. Much much more so than even the US Army. AND Arasaka has a very powerful banking and service sector.

So, say 20% of Arasaka employees are Combat Arms. That's 400,000 armed troops in 2077. Still huge, but not..millions.

And it's just as possible they'd keep their troops at 100,000 or so and use, say, drones and electronic security.

 

[atomowyturysta]

Well, this is wrongo. Canada's GDP is 1.73 trillion. Yes, trillion with a T. We are the 10th largest GDP in the world. We are, frankly, an economic powerhouse. Our natural resources are valued at 33 trillion, fourth in the world. An "energy superpower" to quote Wikipedia.

As for Arasaka's valuation at 475 billion, a couple things have to be noted: the Corpbook that comes from was written in 1990, and is valued to 1990 dollars estimate for 2020. In the late 80s, IBM was worth about $20 per share and was absolutely a megacorporation.

Today, in late 2019, there shares are worth $140/share. And IBM is no Apple or Google - they are a fairly blue-chip, steady-growth company. 700% growth over 30 years.

Using that multiplier for Arasaka, they would be worth not 500 billion dollars but 3.5 trillion dollars in terms of being a powerful megacorp if R. Talsorian wrote them today. In other words, staggering wealth. Which is what R.Tal wanted you to think when you read 475 BILLION dollars in 1990.


Secondly, and what I impress on all my players, is that a lot of the stuff in those Corpbooks is subject to error. Merrill Asukaga and Finch don't know everything. As the book says, "Remember, our suggestions are just that...suggestions!".

You want to impress on players not that Arasaka is worth 500 billion, but that they are staggeringly wealthy - Google Plus scale. That's the point of the Corpbooks and the data therein.

As for the size of Arasaka's army, the original topic, well.

Walmart today employs 2.1 million people. McDonald's 1.9 million. Assume Arasaka by 2077 is -the- Security company by 2077 (debatable) and the population has recovered to our current levels (also debatable) that means 2 million people.

How many are soldiers/guards? Well, good question. The US Army (just the Army, mind you, not the NG or Reserve) has some 460,000 members or so. 15% of those are infantry. Let's assume Arasaka, being efficient, double the amount of their personnel that serve as combat arms. But, wait, Arasaka is spread out allll over the world, means transport, logistics, commo, etc. Much much more so than even the US Army. AND Arasaka has a very powerful banking and service sector.

So, say 20% of Arasaka employees are Combat Arms. That's 400,000 armed troops in 2077. Still huge, but not..millions.

And it's just as possible they'd keep their troops at 100,000 or so and use, say, drones and electronic security.

Sorry Canada for being wrong...
Damn, you're rich

As for 2077 we should remember that Arasaka had to start from scratch, under the scrutiny of almost every major player on the globe. Sure, after 2025 most of them had a lot of their own troubles, but they owed those troubles in great part to Arasaka, so they would be vigilant. Still, Arasaka, as a global conglomerate remained important to the world economy. Too big to fall. I'd speculate they are right where they were in 2020. As most of the corps and nations.

 

[Sardukhar]

Still, Arasaka, as a global conglomerate remained important to the world economy. Too big to fall. I'd speculate they are right where they were in 2020. As most of the corps and nations.

Plus that also lines up with CDPR's plans to make 2020 setting relevant in 2077.

I, too, would think they are similar to the 2020 scale. Same as the rest, with maybe some national changes from 50 years of economic collapse-recovery.

 

[Suhiira]

That's the BIG problem with Arasaka tho. They're world-wide, in fact more so then most national military forces. Arasaka has offices in pretty much all the major cities, whereas national military bases tend to be regional and thus have a larger concentration of forces then Arasaka is capable of.

Let's assume the 400,000 figure is accurate, at least half of those would be on other contracts or providing security for Arasaka facilities thus totally unavailable. And while 200,000 is nothing to scoff at they'll be mostly light infantry and incapable of providing a serious threat to any decent sized nation-state that maintains a credible military.

 

[Sardukhar]

Let's assume the 400,000 figure is accurate, at least half of those would be on other contracts or providing security for Arasaka facilities thus totally unavailable. And while 200,000 is nothing to scoff at they'll be mostly light infantry and incapable of providing a serious threat to any decent sized nation-state that maintains a credible military.

I don't think the assumption of mostly light infantry is accurate necessarily, or at least not much more than 50% - Arasaka might well have higher armour/anti armour ratios than whatever nation-states look like in 2077. They are truly multi-role and ACPA and Punknaughts are things. Plus Arasaka is presumably less traditional and last-war-fighting than national armies. They win on the cutting edge.

The idea the nation state is the superior force to a Megacorp in 2077 also relies on our current understanding of nation states and corps. It turned out that way in 2020 mostly, I believe, because R.Tal had a ra-ra-USA moment, honestly. I think the Corps would have long since predicted and handled the US and Japanese government responses. The story of the end was simplistic in the extreme. "You're now called-up". Sound of Lundee being replaced by his own Board. If that Board still wanted the War, which they presumably did, since they kept signing off on it. Lundee holds 13.9% of the shares, not 51.

The end of the 4th war should have come about from Corporate, not national power. Squashed by other Corps or taken apart by their own Boards. Having it be a case of 20th-Century style Big Daddy USA saying "No." was a letdown and not at all Cyberpunk. Turns out the Megacorps don't run the world! Who knew? Bah.

I sure do agree that Arasaka would have their forces committed all over. I think more like 90% commitment, actually. A unit not working is a unit not paying for itself or providing profit.

 

[Suhiira]

I don't think the assumption of mostly light infantry is accurate necessarily, or at least not much more than 50% - Arasaka might well have higher armour/anti armour ratios than whatever nation-states look like in 2077. They are truly multi-role and ACPA and Punknaughts are things. Plus Arasaka is presumably less traditional and last-war-fighting than national armies. They win on the cutting edge.

I have zero doubt Arasaka has ACPA "Stormtroops" and dedicated anti-armor teams the question/problem is the classic corporate one ... are they profitable? How often are such troops needed vs other corps, raiders, edgerunners? The majority of their forces are going to be glorified security guards because the majority of their contracts aren't going to call for anything more sophisticated. The heavy units are shuttled to where they are needed, when they are needed, it doesn't pay to have them sitting around doing nothing. Outside a handful of situations no client is going to pay the premium rates heavy security troops would require for long-term security, as a reaction force clause sure.

I sure do agree that Arasaka would have their forces committed all over. I think more like 90% commitment, actually. A unit not working is a unit not paying for itself or providing profit.

Probably, but I was being VERY generous for the sake of argument.

 

[Sardukhar]

I have zero doubt Arasaka has ACPA "Stormtroops" and dedicated anti-armor teams the question/problem is the classic corporate one ... are they profitable? How often are such troops needed vs other corps, raiders, edgerunners?

I imagine a more modular approach. Arasaka has a quite high training standard, so although there are some ACPA on duty in their towers, mostly the gear is stowed and ready to be deployed as needed. Thus light infantry becomes armour/anti armour relatively quickly.

 

[Suhiira]

I imagine a more modular approach. Arasaka has a quite high training standard, so although there are some ACPA on duty in their towers, mostly the gear is stowed and ready to be deployed as needed. Thus light infantry becomes armour/anti armour relatively quickly.

Good point.

But you still have to pay them as "elite" troops and buy/maintain the ACPA gear ... not cheap.