I don't like most hacking mini games, i just like the one ChrisWebb posted.. It seems a lot less annoying then some other mini games i have seen.. Yeah.
I don't like most hacking mini games, i just like the one ChrisWebb posted.. It seems a lot less annoying then some other mini games i have seen.. Yeah.
The main issue with current hacking minigames , (or indeed most minigames in general,) is that they are too simple and repetative.
Hacking should be important in 2077. I would go as far as to say it should be mandatory. (I don't mean we should have to do it ourselves, but I think that we should at least hire a netrunner as part of the team, or even just have one on the books as a contact.)
I would like to see the option to hack, on the front line, via an optic upgrade. I would like to keep an eye on whats going on, both in the virtual world and the 'real' world via this optic, using a 'tab' system, minimising the current 'secondary' view to a corner of our field of vision. I would also like to see a 'multiplayer' option to be hired as a dedicated runner, operating from our own remote location.
I am fairly open to 'how' netrunning would actually work, but I would like a detailed and immersive style to it. Obviously, a 'simplified' option would suit many players, but a more in-depth method would be more in keeping with the 2020 background and I imagine many people would be disappointed if '77 didn't have it.
Is there room for 2 styles of hacking?
Hacking should be important in 2077. I would go as far as to say it should be mandatory. (I don't mean we should have to do it ourselves, but I think that we should at least hire a netrunner as part of the team, or even just have one on the books as a contact.)
I would like to see the option to hack, on the front line, via an optic upgrade. I would like to keep an eye on whats going on, both in the virtual world and the 'real' world via this optic, using a 'tab' system, minimising the current 'secondary' view to a corner of our field of vision. I would also like to see a 'multiplayer' option to be hired as a dedicated runner, operating from our own remote location.
I am fairly open to 'how' netrunning would actually work, but I would like a detailed and immersive style to it. Obviously, a 'simplified' option would suit many players, but a more in-depth method would be more in keeping with the 2020 background and I imagine many people would be disappointed if '77 didn't have it.
Is there room for 2 styles of hacking?
Hacking will be important in CP2077 just look at the Netrunner class. So it would be terrible if we would get for example 4 mini games for hacking.....and they would be simple and repetative so it would be shortly boring because you will do a lot of hacking as a Netrunner...
You know, I remember this scene from GITS where a bunch of kids were designing firewalls for some institution. I think it would be fun if we could design or produce our own security measures for in-game use in a similar manner. Or design and produce our own programs etc. for use during missions. What I mean is what if we could "code" our own stuff via a gamey representation of such aspects.
and how should that "designing and producing" look like?
I think "Programing 101" from the CP2020 rulebook, (page 167,) covers the basic elements of the idea pretty well:
Pick the programs functions
Pick the programs options (including the ICON)
Pick the programs strength value
The hard part will be the actual 'writing', as you have pointed out. 2020 had the 'random' aspect, meaning you could fail to create a program if it was too complex for you, and it even gave the option to 'combining efforts' with other Netrunners to create really complex software. There was also the 'time' element.
If this style of software creation is implemented, then the 2 obvious options are to either use some sort of programing minigame to represent the chance of failure, or simply use a RNG to determine the result, be it succes or failure.
I would say that this area also has great potential for modding. Imagine all the unique ICONs that could be created by modders for use in the game!
But all that relies on the Net being represented in a very similar manner to how it is described in the 2020 game. I guess the descriptions, for me, always felt like a new take on the classic 'dungeon crawl', (just like the shadowrun example I found on youtube.) I would like to see something more up to date, like this:
Buildings made of code and printed circuitry. Essentially 'recreating' Night City in code, but instead of having a copy, each 'entity' or location in the net would be represented by a structure of code that would show its equivelant prescence in the net.
As an example, lets imagine an 'internet' cafe, or its equivelant. The physical bulding may be small coffee shop or even just a 'hole in the wall'. But in the net, it could be a towering mega structure or a tropical lagoon. The Mega Corps may have massive buildings in outside, but in the net, (unless they want to be particularly visable,) they may have very small and discrete constructs.
I would also like to see a really wide range of ICON styles, all the way from super-simple 2D, 8-bit and 16-bit, right the way up to 'lifelike' representations of people and objects.
I also quite like the look and feel used by Shirow in the GitS series. Locations being represented as 'balls' of data and code.
I particularly liked their take on 'Chat Rooms'. Actually haveing a 'room' with the group sat around a sort of table and acutally talking, (while the immature members show off with gimmicky over the top fashopn or effects - so true,) was a really nice touch.
That just gave me an idea too. How cool would it be to actually have this sort of 'chat room' in the game, where we can talk to other players or meet NPC contacts?
I think "Programing 101" from the CP2020 rulebook, (page 167,) covers the basic elements of the idea pretty well:
Pick the programs functions
Pick the programs options (including the ICON)
Pick the programs strength value
The hard part will be the actual 'writing', as you have pointed out. 2020 had the 'random' aspect, meaning you could fail to create a program if it was too complex for you, and it even gave the option to 'combining efforts' with other Netrunners to create really complex software. There was also the 'time' element.
If this style of software creation is implemented, then the 2 obvious options are to either use some sort of programing minigame to represent the chance of failure, or simply use a RNG to determine the result, be it succes or failure.
I would say that this area also has great potential for modding. Imagine all the unique ICONs that could be created by modders for use in the game!
But all that relies on the Net being represented in a very similar manner to how it is described in the 2020 game. I guess the descriptions, for me, always felt like a new take on the classic 'dungeon crawl', (just like the shadowrun example I found on youtube.) I would like to see something more up to date, like this:
Buildings made of code and printed circuitry. Essentially 'recreating' Night City in code, but instead of having a copy, each 'entity' or location in the net would be represented by a structure of code that would show its equivelant prescence in the net.
As an example, lets imagine an 'internet' cafe, or its equivelant. The physical bulding may be small coffee shop or even just a 'hole in the wall'. But in the net, it could be a towering mega structure or a tropical lagoon. The Mega Corps may have massive buildings in outside, but in the net, (unless they want to be particularly visable,) they may have very small and discrete constructs.
I would also like to see a really wide range of ICON styles, all the way from super-simple 2D, 8-bit and 16-bit, right the way up to 'lifelike' representations of people and objects.
I also quite like the look and feel used by Shirow in the GitS series. Locations being represented as 'balls' of data and code.
I particularly liked their take on 'Chat Rooms'. Actually haveing a 'room' with the group sat around a sort of table and acutally talking, (while the immature members show off with gimmicky over the top fashopn or effects - so true,) was a really nice touch.
That just gave me an idea too. How cool would it be to actually have this sort of 'chat room' in the game, where we can talk to other players or meet NPC contacts?
chat rooms like this would be awesome
I like the idea of in-game chat rooms, either with NPCs or with real folk.
Yeah the way GitS implemented a virtual persona and virtual rooms was really cool. If your netrunning i imagine your in a vast space with lots of 'nodes' in the distance, you fly over to them and the closer you get you may have to dodge rudimentary firewalls or whatever, then you hack the 'node' and if you get through the world becomes like a smaller lobby of the corp or chat room or whatever.
basically Chris highlighted all the best more efficient and functional ways of netrunnign i think, those were some very insightful posts.
basically Chris highlighted all the best more efficient and functional ways of netrunnign i think, those were some very insightful posts.
I was thinking and it would also be nice if cybernet had a Tron style interface..
And some netrunners had gear/cyberdeck interfaces like this:
And a hacking tool like this:
You know.. Because style..
And some netrunners had gear/cyberdeck interfaces like this:
And a hacking tool like this:
You know.. Because style..
Hackin has to be a game mechanics of itself, more than a mini-game.
Otherwise, I don't see the point of being a Netrunner at all.
Every class should have it's own "feeling".
You know, honnestly, there isn't any real difference between Solo, Corp, Nomad, Fixer, Netrunner, etc...
The only differences comes from their "career choice".
If you're a media, yep you can cybernetise yourself, firing an arasaka assault rifle, but unlike other classes, you can film two bums beating each other and sell the video to your boss. (other classes can too, but they'll probably not film it as good as you'd do)
If you're a techie, you can fix things, or hack them.
Etc...,
Now comes the Netrunner, honnestly it's the hardest "class" to master, because "pnp wise" it's a real mess to make a "real" hacking feeling, and do it smoothly so it doesn't slow down other players.
That said a Netrunner can fire a gun, drive a car... like anyone else.
My point is.
I actualy don't see the point to put a Netrunner in, if all what you can do is "what everyone do, but you'll just be better at mini-game", it sound ridiculous...
That said, we still don't know jack about the game, so it's just speculation right now.
But i hope it'll be someway a "real hacking mecanic", not saying it has to be 100% real, but something more complex than just a crappy mini-game ala Deus Ex, because as Chris said, it would be super boring "Damn, why am I supposed to stay in the van behind the builiding, doing crappy puzzle for retarded people, when i could be shooting all around, living the action?", sounds like a badass Edgerunner doesn't it?
Just remember that, if each classes are equal, there is a few "important stuff" that they're the best to do.
Sure, if it's just to hack a magnetic locked door, even a stupid fixer can do it, with the right tool, and there, a mini-game would be fine.
But i just ABSOLUTLY CAN'T FIGURE, how it would feel "cool / realist / badass / put-whatever-you-want" to have some "arrow on the comp, press X, wait, new comp, X, wait, blablabla", like a never-ending mini-game when you'll be hacking the Arasaka servers.
It has to feel epic!
In cyberpunk world, Netrunners are the big bosses, if you're a good Netrunner, you're supposed to do whatever you want.
You need to steal a bunch of guns from Militech?
Hack their server, blast away the guard-netrunner from their server, hack the central memory, and you can control all the building, guiding your buddies throught the corridor via the cams, detectors, etc...
You'll feel safe, until the cyberspace police come in the place to arrest you for illegal use of your connexion.
But, since you're smart you plugged your wire in a public phone...
You'd better move because "RL" police is coming to check that public phone.
That's the kind of gameplay i'd like to see with a netrunner.
A mini-game wouldn't give even 4% of this.
And it would be super boring to do the same stuff all over the game.
"I play Netrunner because i love mini games \o/ " lol.
In my mind, it has to be like a Magician in a medieval RPG, it's the guy who master things usual people don't, and if he's powerfull enought, well the world is his/her.
The only difference is that with hacking, you can't be the "best in the world" but you can put a real mess in your enemies troops.
Otherwise, I don't see the point of being a Netrunner at all.
Every class should have it's own "feeling".
You know, honnestly, there isn't any real difference between Solo, Corp, Nomad, Fixer, Netrunner, etc...
The only differences comes from their "career choice".
If you're a media, yep you can cybernetise yourself, firing an arasaka assault rifle, but unlike other classes, you can film two bums beating each other and sell the video to your boss. (other classes can too, but they'll probably not film it as good as you'd do)
If you're a techie, you can fix things, or hack them.
Etc...,
Now comes the Netrunner, honnestly it's the hardest "class" to master, because "pnp wise" it's a real mess to make a "real" hacking feeling, and do it smoothly so it doesn't slow down other players.
That said a Netrunner can fire a gun, drive a car... like anyone else.
My point is.
I actualy don't see the point to put a Netrunner in, if all what you can do is "what everyone do, but you'll just be better at mini-game", it sound ridiculous...
That said, we still don't know jack about the game, so it's just speculation right now.
But i hope it'll be someway a "real hacking mecanic", not saying it has to be 100% real, but something more complex than just a crappy mini-game ala Deus Ex, because as Chris said, it would be super boring "Damn, why am I supposed to stay in the van behind the builiding, doing crappy puzzle for retarded people, when i could be shooting all around, living the action?", sounds like a badass Edgerunner doesn't it?
Just remember that, if each classes are equal, there is a few "important stuff" that they're the best to do.
Sure, if it's just to hack a magnetic locked door, even a stupid fixer can do it, with the right tool, and there, a mini-game would be fine.
But i just ABSOLUTLY CAN'T FIGURE, how it would feel "cool / realist / badass / put-whatever-you-want" to have some "arrow on the comp, press X, wait, new comp, X, wait, blablabla", like a never-ending mini-game when you'll be hacking the Arasaka servers.
It has to feel epic!
In cyberpunk world, Netrunners are the big bosses, if you're a good Netrunner, you're supposed to do whatever you want.
You need to steal a bunch of guns from Militech?
Hack their server, blast away the guard-netrunner from their server, hack the central memory, and you can control all the building, guiding your buddies throught the corridor via the cams, detectors, etc...
You'll feel safe, until the cyberspace police come in the place to arrest you for illegal use of your connexion.
But, since you're smart you plugged your wire in a public phone...
You'd better move because "RL" police is coming to check that public phone
.That's the kind of gameplay i'd like to see with a netrunner.
A mini-game wouldn't give even 4% of this.
And it would be super boring to do the same stuff all over the game.
"I play Netrunner because i love mini games \o/ " lol.
In my mind, it has to be like a Magician in a medieval RPG, it's the guy who master things usual people don't, and if he's powerfull enought, well the world is his/her.
The only difference is that with hacking, you can't be the "best in the world" but you can put a real mess in your enemies troops.
Netrunners are not the only users of the net and not the only people who can hack in the net. They are just much better at it because they specialse in that field. In that respect, they are much like Solo's.
But yes, I have no issues with various physical hacking tasks being represented by minigames, but the net should be its own entity all of itself with very few, if any, minigames.
I posted on the previous page about how I would like to see programs work and how I would like interact with the NET.
Seems we share the same point of view.
Yep, Netrunners are specialized in Cyberspace fight/hacking.
I figure i wouldn't look the same to just hack a door, and enter the cyberspace from your home, going to a server XXXXX, sneaking in the Ice, stealing programs, and looking around so the guard-netrunner doesn't caught you.
I've got nothing against mini-games ala Deus Ex, that said, but it has to be fun and "dangerous" to hack something big, as you said, anyone can hack a door, or her GF computer, but sneaking in a big corporation server is a netrunner's job, it has to have it's own design for the web, or else it would seems too "easy", unless there are really hard puzzle, but the problem remain the same, puzzles are boring (maybe not at the begining, but after 4hours of puzzle...).
I'd be more interested in something more "arcade", you need to be quick, throwing programms to your oponents / ice, using shield to protect you, etc...
Once you unlocked the camera you'll be able to look everywhere, the same for the doors, elevators, another computer, etc...
If it's true to the roots, you should even be able to hack Night City's bank to fill your account.
They need to create something "new" gameplay wise, because hackin is very important in CP, and it has to feel "on the edge".
If you miss your target, your brain's gonna fry.
Environmental puzzles are great. Still, be it loads of skills and tools or minigames what matters is devs working on their fair share of actions and effects. Hacking doesn't add anything, but hacking in EYE was fun. Probably the only fun hacking ever made in a rpg.
As I said before; in 2020 you could only really interact with most stuff in the net through programs, so it would probably suit everyone best of there were a we range of programs that achieved the same goals through different means.
Some people like puzzles, so they should be able to use puzzle solving style programs.
Some people like combat, so they should be able to use combat style programs.
Both of these approaches should be able to achieve the same objectives.
Some people like puzzles, so they should be able to use puzzle solving style programs.
Some people like combat, so they should be able to use combat style programs.
Both of these approaches should be able to achieve the same objectives.
I'm definitely anti-minigame.
My ability to master Asteroids, Tetris, Mario, or whatever should have absolutely no effect on my ability to play a netrunner.
The same goes for Skyrims lockpicking minigame, why should PLAYER ability (or lack thereof) to master a minigame govern the CHARACTERS ability to pick locks?
Netrunning - Essential ... it is Cyberpunk after all.
And since it's basically a single-player game (with multiplayer elements) no problem with the rest of the players getting bored.
My ability to master Asteroids, Tetris, Mario, or whatever should have absolutely no effect on my ability to play a netrunner.
The same goes for Skyrims lockpicking minigame, why should PLAYER ability (or lack thereof) to master a minigame govern the CHARACTERS ability to pick locks?
Netrunning - Essential ... it is Cyberpunk after all.
And since it's basically a single-player game (with multiplayer elements) no problem with the rest of the players getting bored.
Netrunning in Cyberpunk 2077 - Let's brainstorm how to make it work
This is NOT a thread about should it be included or not, it assumes it will be.
The question is - How to include it and make it "work".
There are several issues that have to be considered:
1) Special skills and (expensive hard to get) equipment is required for a character to Netrun with any efficiency, how does this impact game play?
2) How is Netrunning presented in-game? Do they need to create essentially two games, Meatspace and Cyberspace?
3) How does a player in Cyberspace interact and communicate with others still in Meatspace, and vice versa?
4) How can Netrunning be incorporated into multi-player (assuming multi-player is included in the game)?
5) What should Netrunning allow a character to do? And conversely what should be specifically excluded for game-play/balance reasons?
This is the tip of this rather treacherous iceburg I'm sure there are many other issues and considerations that have to be taken into account.
This is NOT a thread about should it be included or not, it assumes it will be.
The question is - How to include it and make it "work".
There are several issues that have to be considered:
1) Special skills and (expensive hard to get) equipment is required for a character to Netrun with any efficiency, how does this impact game play?
2) How is Netrunning presented in-game? Do they need to create essentially two games, Meatspace and Cyberspace?
3) How does a player in Cyberspace interact and communicate with others still in Meatspace, and vice versa?
4) How can Netrunning be incorporated into multi-player (assuming multi-player is included in the game)?
5) What should Netrunning allow a character to do? And conversely what should be specifically excluded for game-play/balance reasons?
This is the tip of this rather treacherous iceburg I'm sure there are many other issues and considerations that have to be taken into account.