Oh! You wound me!
Using it is cool. But do you think CDPR would be able to give us the glory of the 3D alternate world you demonstrated? I mean, I'd love that.
Using it is cool. But do you think CDPR would be able to give us the glory of the 3D alternate world you demonstrated? I mean, I'd love that.
If netrunning is reduced to solving simple programming 101 problems, I would be a bit disappointed. It could quickly become repetitive and glorified mini-game even for the total neophyte.
For multiplayer, it would be very awkward.
Maybe they should introduce a programming game? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_game
This way it could be as simple or complicated as the player wishes it to be.
Albeit I think then the netrunners would be reduced to a very very small clique.
Would be cool if CDPR introduced a scripting language and API.Not just for the netrunners or the modders. Say if you're a corporate/fixer, you can control your army and avoid micromanagement. Kind of like BWAPI for brood wars.
For multiplayer, it would be very awkward.
Maybe they should introduce a programming game? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_game
This way it could be as simple or complicated as the player wishes it to be.
Albeit I think then the netrunners would be reduced to a very very small clique.
Would be cool if CDPR introduced a scripting language and API.Not just for the netrunners or the modders. Say if you're a corporate/fixer, you can control your army and avoid micromanagement. Kind of like BWAPI for brood wars.
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Like 99% of things it's a matter of perspective.
I think stamp collecting is lame as hell, my cousin thinks it's cool.
Always remember one thing when posting on any forum - Opinions are a-holes, everyone has one, they all stink.
So would I, but not bloody likely.
For a scripted series of events they could do that, but that would reduce hacking to merely watching cut-scenes, if you're going to allow the player any control over the events there are just too damn many possibilities to consider to allow something like that to be included.
Now, an EXTREMELY streamlined version of that (where most of the icons are non-intractable eye candy) could be done.
As I said earlier in the thread: "Cute but not practical".
They can't make Netrunning too realistic or 90% of the players are going to be left screaming about their inability to defeat that portion of the game because they can't write code (but of course it's perfectly OK if a percentage of players can't do combat because it's too FPS).
It has to be abstracted, but how to do so in such a way that 95% of players find it both doable and enjoyable ... to quote Hamlet "That is the Question!"
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Annnnnnnnd?
I don't really believe that CP2077 will have separate sandbox, net-enviroment. Too much work for (if I understand correctly) just one class to really use.
But since this is "what if" type of thread...
I would like it to be in FPP. It have to be stylised, trone-like-ish. Explorable, vertical enviroment ("power jumps" etc.). "Guarding programs" patrolling area (yes: stealth). You have to see your avatar hands manipulating with stuff (Thief. Johny Mnemonic). When hacking you should be able to use diffrent consumables (extend time, faster hacking, decoy, firewalls etc.). We should be able to choose what to do with successfully hacked system (destroy, wiretap, use, feed with false info, etc.). If our hacking attempt is detected, we should be able to hide from, or fight with mentioned "Guarding programs". You get the idea.
Sorry for lack of appropriate CP2020 vocabulary.
Actually the "How to implement Netrunning in a practical manner" was merged into a pre-existing "What if" thread ... I don't think is should have been but I'm not an omniscient, omnipotent Mod.
I'm perfectly open to any suggestion on how to NOT make it a separate sandbox, but I'll be damned if I can think of a way.
But to not include it means there's no sense having the Netrunner role in the game at all and severely limits the things non-runners can do with regard to info gathering, bypassing alarms, and hijacking drones.
YES - I know according to CyberPunk Cannon you need to be a Netrunner to do any of the above, but since this is primarily a single-player game I THINK it's safe to assume they're going to allow non-Runners to do some basic stuff, or require very low levels of Net related skills to do them.
I'm perfectly open to any suggestion on how to NOT make it a separate sandbox, but I'll be damned if I can think of a way.
But to not include it means there's no sense having the Netrunner role in the game at all and severely limits the things non-runners can do with regard to info gathering, bypassing alarms, and hijacking drones.
YES - I know according to CyberPunk Cannon you need to be a Netrunner to do any of the above, but since this is primarily a single-player game I THINK it's safe to assume they're going to allow non-Runners to do some basic stuff, or require very low levels of Net related skills to do them.
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I chose not to code for living and I bloody hell don't wanna do it when enjoying the game. But then again for me netrunner is one of the least interesting roles so I don't really care. Though if everyone can pick hacking then I'll propably end up doing it at some degree.
I always upgrade my character so that it gives me multiple approaches and boost combat skills last. Also passives before abilities.
I always upgrade my character so that it gives me multiple approaches and boost combat skills last. Also passives before abilities.
No, you're not. Now grovel. GROVEL BEFORE ME.
MuehaahhaahhRHHAHAHAHAHHH.
Well, SOME of us are hoping that they don't lock down the Roles as they do in the PnP. So everyone could have a bit of INterface skill. Just don't try to jack Arasaka with Interface 2 and some weeflerunner deck and program suite.
Or, do. And get brainburned.
That's pretty much what I expect too.
Because if they lock down roles like the PnP game does it'll make playing a single-player very hard unless they go the Shadowrun/D&D route and you run a team not just a single character.
the netrunning could be script kiddie stuff it they have a good beginner level and tutorial
Possible, but let's face it, with some people "logical thought" isn't exactly one of their high points.
No, I don't think scripting in any form is a practical way to implement Netrunning.
I'd see the Netrunning being something like in Deus Ex HR, maybe more advanced, with programs to do things, etc... (like with the one to freeze the network in Deus Ex, etc...), mostly if, as Nars said, they just do 2sandbox (probably 1: Night City, 2: The Wasteland), I doubt too that they would create a whole cyberspace for only one class, in fact, now, we still don't know how they'll handle the cyberspace, and that's the main problem.
In some interview they said they would refresh the idea, on other "no more open cyberspace since the 4th corporate war", so what?
Do they have an internet like us (with keyboard, computer, etc...), do only a few people still use the "neural-interface" ?
Can you jack in with your cellphone by 2077?
If they want to implement classes, and by so, having you "risking your ass", they'll probably play it out like "no more cyberspace, you have to jack from inside", we don't really know (and the lack of news doesn't help...), I'd love to have a whole netrunner thing, it would be awesome, but for a first game + all of a world to build (it's already hard to nail the universe in the Pnp, so making it alive would be even more hella-hard), I doubt they'll make something "that much" developped for one class, I hope i'm wrong though, but unless they comes with some news, I'd not be too much hyped about the Netrunning, that's one of the aspect of the game which scares me the most, honnestly, it can be "Awesome" as "...ok..." as much as "what the hell is that crap?"
In some interview they said they would refresh the idea, on other "no more open cyberspace since the 4th corporate war", so what?
Do they have an internet like us (with keyboard, computer, etc...), do only a few people still use the "neural-interface" ?
Can you jack in with your cellphone by 2077?
If they want to implement classes, and by so, having you "risking your ass", they'll probably play it out like "no more cyberspace, you have to jack from inside", we don't really know (and the lack of news doesn't help...), I'd love to have a whole netrunner thing, it would be awesome, but for a first game + all of a world to build (it's already hard to nail the universe in the Pnp, so making it alive would be even more hella-hard), I doubt they'll make something "that much" developped for one class, I hope i'm wrong though, but unless they comes with some news, I'd not be too much hyped about the Netrunning, that's one of the aspect of the game which scares me the most, honnestly, it can be "Awesome" as "...ok..." as much as "what the hell is that crap?"
Okay. Take the world map for the city. Remove all the people and cars and other actors. Do something cool to it visually. Chrome is a little or neon it or something. Crystal would be nice, but not too much. Maybe change up the logos and ads.
Now, for clouds, set distant powerful AI systems far, far up there - military systems. Nice little Neuromancer reference.
Like this, perhaps:
or this:
Instead of people, add in programs and Daemons in the street and sky and entering the buildings. Occasionally something like a Hellhound races by. Add aerial and subterranean entrances, protected by ICE.
Now, anyone can jack into this world and many do. You can see them , in ghost-form, at secure Dataterms, at virtual meetings, etc. You can see the fainter ghosts of hackable taxis, drones and AVs moving around.
Certain functions require a Deck, however. Hacking functions, control remote functions. Anyone can buy and use a Deck, but how well depends on your Interface and Programming abilities, as well as your System Knowledge and your INT and TECH and maybe COOL.
Using a Deck is like using any other tool - equip and activate it. Unlike other tools, your CyberDeck lets you activate offensive -and-defensive tools, as well as whole suites of mini-programs called Daemons. Think of it like a Wizard's Spellbook.
How MANY spells you can activate at once depends on your Interface and/or Programming and/or INT total. How MANY spells you can carry depends on how good your Deck is.
What can your Deck do? Well, it can let you fly up and around the City, speed determined by Deck, altitude determined by Deck and nerve. It can let you go "underground" and access sub-nets - if you are good enough to find and hack their entrance codes. It can, perhaps, if it is very top-end and you are, too, let you access the micro-architecture of cyberware.
When you purchase a Deck, you pick your Avatar from a range of options - this is what you look like in the Internet to other users and viewers. You might be a samurai, a pirate, a chrome dragon(bird), Cthulhu or something worse, like, say, slimgrin without pants. You can buy more Avatars.
Exploration in the Net consists of moving around the CIty. Legitimate users tend to stay ground-bound or the first few levels. Other users who aren't running Invisibility might be running up walls or flying around NCPD taunting the police. Some bound carefully from building to building, avoiding trouble, intent on their tasks.
Tasks like hacking into, say, Net News 54. To do so, you have to break or bypass their DataWall, using either a brute force program or a slower, sneaker Worm.
Like all program use, this will rely on the power of your Deck and your skills, in this case allowing you to tunnel through quietly or by using your target cursor, focus on a wall section to hammer at quickly. The better the program, ( more expensive, more Deck space needed) the easier it is.
If you get in undetected, you are inside a fairly simple structure - basically a dungeon with rooms. In these rooms you might find systems to control, ( doors, lights), data storage, passcodes..enemy ICE, (Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics) or even a SysAdmin. What you do in these rooms depends. Extract the data if you can, ( depends on Programming, System Knowledge, strength of programs used), fight off the ICE or Admin if you can, (like a firefight or melee fight in MeatSpace, only using your Deck Programs as spells and Daemons as ally NPCs), or run and hope you make it outside so you can jack out.
IF you just jack out, it makes it easier for them to Trace you. The idea is to run and hide, (your software tries to confuse their traceroute), until you are clear, then jack out.
A Hellhound may be set on your path to find you. If it does, it can burn up your Deck..and maybe you.
If you lose a battle in Cyberspace, several things can happen. You can be forced to jack out. You can have your Deck damaged. You can be physically harmed with feedback. You can be held and prevented from jacking out unless a friend does it for you. You can be brain wiped.
All good fun!
Once you have what you came for, you retreat or run out of the NN54 building, dodge a bit to dump any traces and then either go do something else in the virtual Night City or just jack out to Meatspace where your cheering comrades wait to shower you with praise.
-----------------------
The beauty of this method is that it makes use of existing assets: the City. The combat methods and engine are the same - you use your Deck as an all-in-one arsenal,a rmour and inventory, the Programs your weapons and defensives.
Anyone can do it - but the higher your Interface, Programming, System Knowledge, INT and TECH and COOL the better your chances. In order to use Decks of a certain calibre, you need Interface and INT of a certain scale. In order to stand a chance against ICE and AIs and SysAdmin, you need a good INT and TECH - they act as REF and BODY would in Meatspace. Also, the length of timer before disturbance, for example, might be based on System Knowledge, or the amount of keys known before starting a multi-variable hack a la Fallout, perhaps.
So, that's how I would do it, probably. What do you think?
The idea sounds good, albeit a bit lengthy with far too many multi-syllable words, but the next question would be "Why"?
How would you see this relating to the real world, and therefore the game overall?
Some aspects are fairly obvious - you can use it to get data, which will help with some missions. And you can use it as a way of opening doors, or safes, to make things easier for your physical self later. Or you can use it take control of security systems to disable them or make them work for you instead of against you when you arrive in person. But plenty of other games have that.
What would you use this reality for, in a way that makes it superior to the hacking in every other game?
How would you see this relating to the real world, and therefore the game overall?
Some aspects are fairly obvious - you can use it to get data, which will help with some missions. And you can use it as a way of opening doors, or safes, to make things easier for your physical self later. Or you can use it take control of security systems to disable them or make them work for you instead of against you when you arrive in person. But plenty of other games have that.
What would you use this reality for, in a way that makes it superior to the hacking in every other game?
A simple re-skin of the city saves the art department a TON of work and keeping many of the game mechanics similar does the same for the code monkeys.
IF there's some sort of flying mechanic in the game for some other reason sure include it for the Net. But to add one JUST for Netrunning wouldn't be cost-effective.
I also like the way you allowed anyone to use a Deck but gave "real" Netrunners a noteworthy advantage (as well they should have).
Maybe cyberspace battle could damage your software (at least till you jack-out and reload a fresh copy)?
IF there's some sort of flying mechanic in the game for some other reason sure include it for the Net. But to add one JUST for Netrunning wouldn't be cost-effective.
I also like the way you allowed anyone to use a Deck but gave "real" Netrunners a noteworthy advantage (as well they should have).
Maybe cyberspace battle could damage your software (at least till you jack-out and reload a fresh copy)?
Well, "flying" is often just a no-clipping command. But since we are likely to have AV-4 transport, I thought your Deck would act as an AV-4.
Damaging your software would be another mechanic outside Meatspace mechanics, whereas damaging you wouldn't be. But, yeah, that would be cool - de-rez a Program or Daemon and then come for you.
Why has no one explained to Dragon why Netrunning is so powerful compared to, say, Deus Ex HR hacking? WHY. Why must you people fail me again and again and again and again.
I blame Deconakteileleilel or however you spell that damn name. Such a Dec.
Damaging your software would be another mechanic outside Meatspace mechanics, whereas damaging you wouldn't be. But, yeah, that would be cool - de-rez a Program or Daemon and then come for you.
Why has no one explained to Dragon why Netrunning is so powerful compared to, say, Deus Ex HR hacking? WHY. Why must you people fail me again and again and again and again.
I blame Deconakteileleilel or however you spell that damn name. Such a Dec.
I agree they'll probably have an AV-4 ... BUT ... with it be usable by players or a scripted NPC only thing. If NPC only they won't have (or need) code for flying.
Say for instance a Net attack screws up one of your programs:
1) Maybe you have 2+ copies of the program loaded
2) Maybe you just do without and hope you don't NEED that program
3) Maybe you just call it a day and jack-out
To be honest it can't be as powerful/useful in CP2077 as it is in CP2020.
A really good runner in CP2020 can access virtually anything connected to the net and do with it what they will.
Unlimited cred...
A Corp's latest research project...
License to carry whatever...
I just can't see giving one class virtual (yes, double meaning intended) god-like powers.
On the other hand is should be useful for more then merely unlocking doors and collecting files ah-la ShadowRun.
Say for instance a Net attack screws up one of your programs:
1) Maybe you have 2+ copies of the program loaded
2) Maybe you just do without and hope you don't NEED that program
3) Maybe you just call it a day and jack-out
To be honest it can't be as powerful/useful in CP2077 as it is in CP2020.
A really good runner in CP2020 can access virtually anything connected to the net and do with it what they will.
Unlimited cred...
A Corp's latest research project...
License to carry whatever...
I just can't see giving one class virtual (yes, double meaning intended) god-like powers.
On the other hand is should be useful for more then merely unlocking doors and collecting files ah-la ShadowRun.
I think that's the important thing.
If it's a team-based game, or if they don't implement roles but just allow your thicko Nomad to acquire Netrunning skills, then netrunning can be a "facilitator", just a way of helping a mission go more smoothly. Just like every other v ideogame with hacking.
But if it's going to be more than that, you need to be able to WIN the game using these skills. Explain it to me. Otherwise I'll need to beg Sard to tell me, and none of us want to boost his ego, do we?
