How many of you have dev experience or studied CS?

[cerberusdest]

I keep seeing "fix the game" requests that amount to basically redeveloping major sections of the game. It's a completely absurd thing to ask for, and I can't see how you would ask for something like this if you have any sense of the time and effort it takes.

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

Not a single one? Lol that about sums up the value of the criticism given on here
Might as well just poll random people on the street to guide development

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

I hope this post will inform the mods/devs on how seriously to take the rampant criticism on this forum

 

[Shoklen]

I was an 3d modeler/animator for a few years in a studio; commercial work and some 3d real-time engine work... I can understand what it takes from the art angle and the shear scale and scope of putting together something like Night City. wow. I also know just enough about programming to just touch upon the complexities of that angle as well.

Then there is the job of tracking down bugs working off little or zero, or in some cases misleading (not by anyone's fault) information and reports.. Then digging thru mountains of code... Ugh...

I know the "crunch" time, the back to back to back 16hr days; the pressure from the brass when a deadline is coming up... There are def good days and bad days in that type of environment. I enjoyed it myself but it is not for everyone. The toughest part is getting those that are above you to understand what they are actually asking of, not just one person, but the team as a whole; specially when trying to push the limits of technology. Project creep is also huge...

 

[animalfather]

I did two courses in uni, one was Java the other Python with my limited knowledge of CS I can imagine that game development is more tedious and time consuming than hard. But i agree "fixing" the game is a lost cause better to move on.

 

[Trykz]

I keep seeing "fix the game" requests that amount to basically redeveloping major sections of the game. It's a completely absurd thing to ask for, and I can't see how you would ask for something like this if you have any sense of the time and effort it takes.

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

Not a single one? Lol that about sums up the value of the criticism given on here
Might as well just poll random people on the street to guide development

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

I hope this post will inform the mods/devs on how seriously to take the rampant criticism on this forum

How is "fix the game" AT ALL "absurd"?

People paid good money for a game that was VASTLY different than what they were told they were buying. There's nothing absurd about asking for what you paid for.

Or wait..... was this a troll post? Must be. Okay. Ya got me..... har har

 

[cerberusdest]

I was an 3d modeler/animator for a few years in a studio; commercial work and some 3d real-time engine work... I can understand what it takes from the art angle and the shear scale and scope of putting together something like Night City. wow. I also know just enough about programming to just touch upon the complexities of that angle as well.

Then there is the job of tracking down bugs working off little or zero, or in some cases misleading (not by anyone's fault) information and reports.. Then digging thru mountains of code... Ugh...

Exactly!!
The sheer scale is definitely one of the most impressive things about the game. No loading screens but the whole city seems largely visible from everywhere. They clearly had to do a lot of work just to get the city to run, with so much being interactable and vertically connected. Many smart tricks (it's just my guess, I personally don't really understand) for making locations and NPCs spawn in, and connecting places via elevator. I think it's mind blowing that it even runs on PS4.

 

[Kikinho]

Where is the poll?
And so you are saying, that we as consumers have no right to criticise or give feedback on a product because we don't have a degree in game design?

 

[cerberusdest]

I did two courses in uni, one was Java the other Python with my limited knowledge of CS I can imagine that game development is more tedious and time consuming than hard. But i agree "fixing" the game is a lost cause better to move on.

Agreed. It's interesting how people who understand the task involved seem to understand CDPR's situation..

Post automatically merged: Dec 30, 2020

Where is the poll?
And so you are saying, that we as consumers have no right to criticise or give feedback on a product because we don't have a degree in game design?

No, the customer feedback is valuable. However my opinion is that CDPR should be careful when listening to feedback that, as valuable as it can be, can be based on complete ignorance of the process it takes to develop a game like this.

What is the solution? Well first thing is to temper expectations so that the people who don't necessarily know the task involved don't start believing that you can just conjure a game straight out of the future - That somehow you can just ask for things and they'll get magically developed.

Having seen the incredible scale and ambition of the game now, I think they should have done what Larian does with pre-alphas, or just tell the world that they were too ambitious and had to scale things back down to meet a realistic release date. This isn't a criticism of CDPR: I would have supported them even more had that happened.

 

[hulkman2456]

The whole, you're not a chef argument towards the order they got wrong, huh. The problem is they advertised XYZ. And the game only has half of X, some of Y, and nothing of Z. Hundreds of people slaved over motion tracking people in green suits for months. For the CG in the Cats movie. Doesn't mean the movie gets a pass for being crap.

 

[Kikinho]

Agreed. It's interesting how people who understand the task involved seem to understand CDPR's situation..

Post automatically merged: Dec 30, 2020

No, the customer feedback is valuable. However my opinion is that CDPR should be careful when listening to feedback that, as valuable as it can be, can be based on complete ignorance of the process it takes to develop a game like this.

What is the solution? Well first thing is to temper expectations so that the uninformed people don't start believing that you can just conjure a game straight of the future.

I don't really understnad your fear. Trust me, it doesn't matter what people ask for and loud about, CDPR will simply and always go for the most profitable solution. After all, if forum posts would have any influence on the game industry, the AAA scene wouldn't be so dire as it's been for the last decades.
Also believe me, I feel for the actual devs. The passion and care they put into the game clearly shows, frankly it's the game's only saving grace.
It's the managment that has to be held credible for the poor state of the game. Or for the blatant misadvertisement and hype building.

Just because someone doesn't know the technical background of building a game, they still have every right to expect the game that was promised for their money.

Edit: And just to add, when I ask for the promised features to be introduced into the game, I don't care if it will take a year or they would have to re-launch the game again later. Take as much time as needed, but do deliver on your promise of a next-gen never have seen before RPG experience. Because quite frankly, while the game is fun enough, it has been seen plenty before, and even done better.
CDPR is not a small indie company, they were riding high on the trust people have lended them in the last years and they wasted all the trust.

As I sadi before. I feel sorry for the actual devs who are behind the experience that makes the game amazing, but I have no sympathy for the company as a whole.

 

[cerberusdest]

I don't really understnad your fear. Trust me, it doesn't matter what people ask for and loud about, CDPR will simply and always go for the most profitable solution. After all, if forum posts would have any influence on the game industry, the AAA scene wouldn't be so dire as it's been for the last decades.
Als believe me, I feel for the actual devs. The passion and care they out into the game clearly shows, frankly it's the game's only saving grace.
It's the managment that has to be held credible for the poor state of the game. Or for the blatant misadvertisement and hype building.

Just because someone doesn't know the technical background of building a game, they still have every right to expect the game that was promised for them.

I've said this before, but I think the game would have benefitted immensely from just one more year of development. I can't see anyone other than management forcing them to release it this year to harvest the COVID Christmas season. It's a terrible shame, and I hope one that proves to be a lesson on what not to do as a game company manager.

 

[Kikinho]

I've said this before, but I think the game would have benefitted immensely from just one more year of development. I can't see anyone other than management forcing them to release it this year to harvest the COVID Christmas season. It's a terrible shame, and I hope one that proves to be a lesson on what not to do as a game company manager.

I agree. The game is amazing only because of the dev's talent and love. Everything that is wrong with it probably can be put down to mismanagment.
In the next few months we will see if the higher ups have learnt anything.

 

[Guest 4375874]

I keep seeing "fix the game" requests that amount to basically redeveloping major sections of the game. It's a completely absurd thing to ask for, and I can't see how you would ask for something like this if you have any sense of the time and effort it takes.

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

Not a single one? Lol that about sums up the value of the criticism given on here
Might as well just poll random people on the street to guide development

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

I hope this post will inform the mods/devs on how seriously to take the rampant criticism on this forum

Been saying this from day 1. I think the glaring misconception becomes more obvious when ppl draw comparison with games like Deus Ex which is a very linear game that allows the devs to direct the players and thereby have complete control over the player interaction vs something like CP 2077 which is open world. While there are certainly criticisms that should be made, most of the ones I see here are just ridiculous and not remotely practical from a game design standpoint. I can only hope the devs see through the noise and focus on the areas that truly need polishing.

 

[cstretten]

I question how much of the missing content is close to finished, but not-in-time for testing?

I have over 20 years in the gaming industry (I am a 3D Artist and Animator - and technical artist as well - worked with many engines, and have worked very closely with development teams. I am very familiar with scope creep and cutting features etc.)

I would say that considering how much of the feature list that seems to be either removed completely, or just slightly there, suggests that adding them back in may not be super difficult. There is a good chance that many things are simply turned off or using older (but working) code. I only guess at this because of how late to release things were continuously confirmed to be in the game, but then weren't.

That or it was just pure lies for sales sake... it very well may be.

The largest problem is that for everything they add back in or fix, it requires an entire new round of QA testing as complicated systems like this break in unforeseen ways. So... I wish they would "fix" it to as close as what they promised as possible - but I also expect that it may be the end of 2021 before we see that...

 

[arcsirc]

Was dev, fixing the game is a much smaller task than the work that's already been done on it. It really isn't too tall an ask, the devs will be working on something anyway whether it's this or MP or TW4.
The only thing that directs where that effort goes is the executive level staff. Fulfilling their commitments to the game is a valid long term strategy for brand management and consumer trust, bailing onto other things will probably have a nicer graph for the shareholders. time will tell what route they take but they don't need white knights.

It really isn't unreasonable to expect them to at least have a go at delivering what the marketing material advertised.
I agree that what they should have done is walked it back ala Larian but the window for that passed some time ago.

 

[Salfin]

No one thinks it's easy, considering how many of these big games come out in a messed up state, or seem to experience years of delays, lost development time, staff turn-over. It must be very complex to have 200+ people work together to craft a game like this.

You know, supposedly the company had a large section of devs work for months on a 2018 tech demo, just for marketing and hype, full of mechanics and concepts that never made it into the game. Or exist in the game as half-baked ideas that don't seem to fufil any purpose. (What the heck is street cred for other then unlocking mantis-arms? No gangs or anyone seems to care about street cred? Wall-climb removed leaving manti arms just a katana with different graphics. It seems like they don't know what they want to do, and didn't have enough time to figure it out. But they did have enough time, they had been working on this game almost a decade, so what did they do with their time?)

It sounds like they had a lot of different priorites and bad leadership. So maybe what people should be asking for is better leadership within the company, and the design will follow.

 

[arcsirc]

I question how much of the missing content is close to finished, but not-in-time for testing?

I have over 20 years in the gaming industry (I am a 3D Artist and Animator - and technical artist as well - worked with many engines, and have worked very closely with development teams. I am very familiar with scope creep and cutting features etc.)

I would say that considering how much of the feature list that seems to be either removed completely, or just slightly there, suggests that adding them back in may not be super difficult. There is a good chance that many things are simply turned off or using older (but working) code. I only guess at this because of how late to release things were continuously confirmed to be in the game, but then weren't.

That or it was just pure lies for sales sake... it very well may be.

The largest problem is that for everything they add back in or fix, it requires an entire new round of QA testing as complicated systems like this break in unforeseen ways. So... I wish they would "fix" it to as close as what they promised as possible - but I also expect that it may be the end of 2021 before we see that...

second this, it's likely that much of what was planned is prototyped and exists and was simply cut and simplified to get the game shippable.

 

[urza7]

I keep seeing "fix the game" requests that amount to basically redeveloping major sections of the game. It's a completely absurd thing to ask for, and I can't see how you would ask for something like this if you have any sense of the time and effort it takes.

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

Not a single one? Lol that about sums up the value of the criticism given on here
Might as well just poll random people on the street to guide development

Post automatically merged: Dec 29, 2020

I hope this post will inform the mods/devs on how seriously to take the rampant criticism on this forum

Mate i f*** don't care if they are the N1 dev's in the world or not. I payed for a game that is broken and half finished and the minimum is that they gonna do something with this s****. And if your expectation is that low the game in this state is far enough for you then go and play with this mess but DON'T explain me i need to accept this s****.
I hope in the future just buy a car that is broken and after you complaining this is not good the car mechanic casually spit for you that: are you a car expert if not don't complain.

 

[foo_]

Full-time dev and project lead here, learned two dozen languages, actively using five or six.
(OP asked.)
Opinion about Cyberpunk 2077 (PC) as of 2020-12-30:

Some bugs at launch were of the small-but-very-visible type, and I think those were the most harmful to the release publicity. How to avoid: more time, and much more testing (wider array of hardware, more manpower).
Those were fixed pretty quick, though, and I think dev teams got a deserved time off now (I do hope!!).

Some bugs at launch were (and are) of the tricky type, where it is hard to figure out what the real issue is, how they happen. No perfect strategy to finding them efficiently (that I know of); but it is important they get worked on start of next year, and resolved visibly - even if it takes time.

Lack of optimisation, obvious glitches, lots of that... but these are something a lot of games have; again, add more time, and it'll get fixed.

I don't see a really "showstopper", after the initial batch of bad things got fixed. (And yes, I personally was affected from the "your mouse and keyboard input is completely ignored" bug, so I'm not just cool about it because things worked for me. It didn't.).

The worst thing business-wise was Sony de-listing the game; but I'm still not clear about the precise reason why.


All in all, I get why it happened - business-side, they didn't want to postpone the already-postponed release after the holiday season, when people got more time to play (and more money to spend). Adding two more months of testing and fixing, and the game would've been universally lauded - in late February.
It was a gamble, they placed their bet, and they lost.

I trust CDPR though, they'll fix things, they'll provide more content, and in the end, most players will be happy.
Remember Witcher 3 launch? There were a lot of (less severe) bugs at start, too; and it became GOTY in the end.

What would've helped IMHO: More devs? Some, but not many, I think. More testers, and a more diverse range of hardware for testing; and/or external, specialised professional testing labs.

Just my 0.02€

 

[Neurojack]

I hope this post will inform the mods/devs on how seriously to take the rampant criticism on this forum

The mood in this forum is very negative, I have noticed that on Steam forums, people seem to be enjoying the game for the most part. I agree that the most vocal critics can't grasp the scale of a project like this. One person alone, might take hundreds, even thousand of years of solo work in the game in order to complete it.

On the whole, and despite some questionable mechanics and design choices, the game is fantastic. But the trend of criticism is making players to notice all of a sudden, all sort of problems in Cyberpunk that are easily forgiven in other games. Best thing would be, for players, to accept the game as it is. And then, to look forward to additional content and game fixes, both paid and free, that minimize the problems and, at the same time, build upon the game strengths.

 

[cerberusdest]

Lots of good points in the posts above,

I think the key question is do you try to add the cut stuff back into the Cyberpunk 2077 campaign or do you try to incorporate them into a future storyline (DLC/expansion) or MP.

I'm of the opinion that it'll be best to just fix the CP2077 singleplayer in stone - That is, the features the are added back, unless they're minor things that don't impact the gameplay or story, like barbers, should be accessible only after you beat the CP2077 campaign, as part of a continuation, either by DLC or Expansion, or MP. I think that'll drastically reduced the potential headache from trying to reincorporate things into the base game.