I'd like to believe it so too. That is why I'm trying to contribute to feedback as much as I can.
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The problem with CP 2077 is that the engine not capable to do more or do what they are hyped. The first time i think that they have a shiny new engine but no. They have a program GameINN it has 4 part City Creation,Seamless Multiplayer, Cinematic Feel and Animation Excellence but i'm doubt they are working or working as intended in the game. So what i'm want to say is that this game is that what we are seeing right now it not will be better they are smashing the bugs and that's all. And that's why i'm really angry
To fix many of the problems, it won't be needed to make radical changes to the engine. Police for example, can be scripted differently. Its just a bit of code work, I guess. The loot system and game balance can also be worked on the same way, even the driving physics model is lines of code. Only regarding destructible environment I have my doubts, because we might be talking about static 3D models. Also, I don't expect the main campaign or storyline to change very much. But if the game gets refined, and plays better and better, at a certain threshold the remaining issues won't even matter.
CS degree, several years as a programmer in the games industry (though not recently).
I wouldn't presume to criticize CDPR's approach to the more complex problems in CP2077, however my biggest issue with the game is utterly trivial; the FoV slider in the Stadia build being (previously missing, but now) constrained to 70-80 degrees.
That's a problem my 8 year old nephew could fix with nothing more than Notepad, and a file search.
Practically zero technical knowledge needed (though admittedly he'd struggle working out how to rebuild the game).
It's embarrassing for CDPR to allow such a trivial issue to inconvenience even a single customer.
I wouldn't presume to criticize CDPR's approach to the more complex problems in CP2077, however my biggest issue with the game is utterly trivial; the FoV slider in the Stadia build being (previously missing, but now) constrained to 70-80 degrees.
That's a problem my 8 year old nephew could fix with nothing more than Notepad, and a file search.
Practically zero technical knowledge needed (though admittedly he'd struggle working out how to rebuild the game).
It's embarrassing for CDPR to allow such a trivial issue to inconvenience even a single customer.
Project lead here too. I agree with your post ! But I assume the issue is more a matter of scope vs time than manpower. Not sure adding people would have helped except if onboarded on the early stages of the development : you can't make a baby in 1 month with 9 woman, as someone said.
You can only remove tasks from your scope (ex : old gen console release) or delay until the game is ready (february, as you said).
I'm really curious to have more details on what happened here. They were certainly aware of the game issues since April 20. Game got the "Gold" status in october, but still managed to have the "disastrous" launch we all know now (still bought it day one and love it)
I think everybody have something to learn here :
- Players shouldn't put their trust blindly on a "chosen one" and manage their expectations
- CDPR should work their communication and reconsider their strategy.
I'm concerned by some comments here : releasing a game in such a state (saying "they'll fix it later") is a very low standard. This shouldn't become common and accepted in this industry I assume we all love (except if the game is clearly branded as Early Access like BG3). I really hope talking or debating about it will help in any way.
@cerberusdest > Issue here is mostly in the discrepancy between what was advertised since 2012 and the final product. There's plenty of post detailing what's considered "cut" or "missing". Let's not even start with the bugs. So I don't get the point of your post : I'd rather read unrealistic feedbacks (as long as they're constructive, or include few good ideas) than reading people blindly blaming or defending the company. Do you assume people can't critize anything except if they're experts ?
Senior Java Developer with 25 years of experience, took Unreal Engine Courses for 2 years as a hobby, and I have been interested in Game programming in general for 20 years
I know exactly what goes into making a game given that I have worked with people who have worked for major gaming companies. It's not an easy job, especially for the Producer who has to take the hard decisions and has to live with the consequences !
Wishing the best to the CD Project Red team!
You don't need to be a cook to feel if a pizza taste sour and rancing.
if you can't pass something stupid like fizzbuzz there is no way you can even read the AI code lol
Its a very low standard usually, friend - but consider that it depends entirely on the game. RPGs as a genre can become very complex in fact. There are so many objects, interactions with NPCs, events, etc. With such a high number of areas where there is potential for trouble, anything can go wrong, anytime. This is not what most people want to hear... but its definitely easier to finish a relatively bug free linear shooter, than a game with a very wide scope, like this one. Yes, it would be great to have only bug free products to enjoy in our computers as the standard, but let's be realistic... even simple unix commands from decades old have bugs in their code, despite being open source for all these years. Imagine a modern RPG.
That said, we all acknowledge that the release of this game was very rushed, of course. It shows that the devs were still working on game features while very close of the launch date, and not much time was given to only fix bugs pre-release.
A long time ago... when I was a young, enthusiastic developer, I told my boss we weren't ready for release because of X,Y,Z reason, he replied to me: "In a perfect world, we would fix all of that, but we don't live in a perfect world"
The reality is, that sometimes(uhm, always) you have to deliver and deal with the results afterwards.
I can't name a single piece of software that was released without bugs, can you?
When players are enjoying a game a lot of minor issues are either completely missed, or at least categorized as not very important by those players because their overall impression is still highly positive. Flip that around however and give them an overall negative experience and they're more likely to pay attention to small issues, because they were feeling disappointed before they encountered it, and because there is also a natural tendency to go back and look at what went wrong if the game ends on a bad note.
That definitely isn't unique to Cyberpunk. When Mass Effect 3 released for example you had a mountain of criticism directed at issues that were also present (or worse) in Mass Effect 2, but those some players would cite ME2 as the best game in the series. The ending controversy caused a lot of players to go back over the game with a fine toothed comb and nitpick every perceived flaw.
In any case It's still the studio's fault. If there is a lot of criticism being directed at a game that is overly harsh or nitpicky, it's only because the studio failed to deliver a product that left a positive impression on the majority of players that purchased it. Make a good game and the overly nitpicky critics will be drowned out by the sea of praise the studio is getting from those who enjoyed it.
With this logic, only movie directors are allowed to talk about movies. Only classically trained musicians are allowed to talk about music.
Ask Todd, it just works.
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A long time ago... when I was a young, enthusiastic developer, I told my boss we weren't ready for release because of X,Y,Z reason, he replied to me: "In a perfect world, we would fix all of that, but we don't live in a perfect world"
The reality is, that sometimes(uhm, always) you have to deliver and deal with the results afterwards.
I can't name a single piece of software that was released without bugs, can you?
Ask Todd, it just works.
It's not my job to sympathize for companies who don't deliver on their promises.
We spent $$$ and expect the goods and services promised in return.
You don't go to Zara, Gucci or Louis Vuitton and get Payless shoes/clothes.
We spent $$$ and expect the goods and services promised in return.
You don't go to Zara, Gucci or Louis Vuitton and get Payless shoes/clothes.
Again, many studios fixed games before and re released titles. Even Witcher 2 and 1 got huge upgrades after less than a year with their enhanced editions which are a night and day difference from the original base versions of both games.
Re releases are trully well received by the community and show that the developers are listening.
If Cyberpunk 2077 is never fixed it will be a huge permanent stain in the CDPR history.
Hell, I've seen modders again and again implement and/or fix things in days just for developers to finally implement the same feature or fix many months later. Some examples of many come to mind: the Dragon Age Inquisition terrible camera (fixed by modders very well in the very first few days, less than a week, of the game's release just for the developers to implement the very same fix months later), and the AVX fix for Cyberpunk2077 that was posted by modders a day after the game release and two weeks later was implemented by the developers...
Re releases are trully well received by the community and show that the developers are listening.
If Cyberpunk 2077 is never fixed it will be a huge permanent stain in the CDPR history.
Hell, I've seen modders again and again implement and/or fix things in days just for developers to finally implement the same feature or fix many months later. Some examples of many come to mind: the Dragon Age Inquisition terrible camera (fixed by modders very well in the very first few days, less than a week, of the game's release just for the developers to implement the very same fix months later), and the AVX fix for Cyberpunk2077 that was posted by modders a day after the game release and two weeks later was implemented by the developers...
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I'm dev since 2005.
They are not going to make ground changes to this game(like IA).
They are focusing on fixing bugs, it's wssted time if you plan to make big changes. No way.
I have low expectations for the DLC that is coming.
This game is not 2 month away to be finished like some people said.
So i expect them fixing bugs and make it playable on consoles.
It's crazy for me to think about 500 devs for that long time and releasing the game with cut content everywhere. Unfinished everywhere if you stop going from A to B without looking around.
I can't imagine how CDP devs feels about this . I put passion in this profesion and the result of this release is so hard to assimilate.
They are not going to make ground changes to this game(like IA).
They are focusing on fixing bugs, it's wssted time if you plan to make big changes. No way.
I have low expectations for the DLC that is coming.
This game is not 2 month away to be finished like some people said.
So i expect them fixing bugs and make it playable on consoles.
It's crazy for me to think about 500 devs for that long time and releasing the game with cut content everywhere. Unfinished everywhere if you stop going from A to B without looking around.
I can't imagine how CDP devs feels about this . I put passion in this profesion and the result of this release is so hard to assimilate.
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Anyone else think it's 'absurd' to ask for other people's credentials, then belittle them and/or their opinions (even passive aggressively) for not having a degree or work experience, yet provide no credentials of their own while doing so?
For the record, since apparently we cannot have an opinion without first providing some sort of citation to prove our bona fides...
- First computer programming classes taken in 1980. (Freshman year in High School.)
- Took CS classes in college.
- Helped design and build some of Amazon's first affiliate websites in the early 90's, including my own.
- Provided the concept for, designed, built and ran the RPG forums for Delphi in the 90's and early 2K's, and was a paid SysOp/Forum Manager for the duration.
- Was part of a team (One of many such teams) that helped implement and test connectivity between individual online services, which led to what you now take for granted as the 'internet' today.
- Consulted on and tested several private BBS platforms in the mid to late 90's.
- Paid tester for several commercial titles, not all of them games.
- Alpha and Beta tester for most of the major AAA MMORPG's released over the last 18 years, with a scattering of other genres thrown in for variety.
- (That's not everything, but should be enough.)
Now that we've gotten that out of the way....
There are a lot of legitimate complaints about CP2077's failings and how it's release was handled. There are probably an equal amount of ridiculously entitled rants that are fueled more by rage than they are reason at this point. There's also a fair amount of white knighting going on that only serves to muddy the waters even more.
This isn't the first time a game launch has been botched. It's not even the first time one has been botched badly. It's also not going to be the last, it's simply the one everyone is bandwagoning at present. It's low hanging fruit, and there's little else to distract people from it, so it's getting a lot of attention. If there's one thing the media and gamers both can't resist, it's kicking someone when they're down.
And there's been a fair amount of kicking going on.
I'm not especially worried about CDPR taking the rants seriously and making things worse by compounding mistakes. Most of the time, the developers (Not just CDPR) know what's possible, and they know the difference between reasonable criticism and fanatical butthurt. I have no doubt that CDPR's dev team is VERY aware of what's broken and needs fixing. The fact that they've gone so far as to call out management on the state of the game's launch tells me that much.
I'm just as disappointed as most of the rest of you. I know what the trailers and the PR and the hype train sold us on, and I know what we got. The two are not one and the same. I also know that the dev team wasn't responsible for the bait and switch, that falls squarely on the suits, starting with the Board of Directors and continuing down the hill to the PR team who fed the hype, knowing it was smoke and mirrors.
Is the dev team 100% blameless in all of this? Not at all. But neither are they 100% responsible for the train wreck.
I've made my share of snarky remarks about bugs and other mistakes, but I've also put in close to 80 hours exploring everything I can find to do in the game. I'm definitely not one of those folks that refunded the game almost immediately but still spends his time on the forums mining salt. On the whole, despite the bugs and other issues, I've found it to be an interesting experience. I'm definitely looking forward to completing the game. I'm also looking forward to various bug fixes, content updates and other improvements.
I'm not giving the devs or CDPR a pass on this, they've certainly made a mess of things. At the same time, I'm not going to be completely unreasonable and hold their feet to the flames either. I've spent enough time in the industry to know mistakes were made, and to even identify a number of them. I've also spent enough time in the industry to know that I don't know everything.
TLDR: By all means, hold them accountable. But perhaps we can hold off on building the gallows just yet, hmm?
For the record, since apparently we cannot have an opinion without first providing some sort of citation to prove our bona fides...
- First computer programming classes taken in 1980. (Freshman year in High School.)
- Took CS classes in college.
- Helped design and build some of Amazon's first affiliate websites in the early 90's, including my own.
- Provided the concept for, designed, built and ran the RPG forums for Delphi in the 90's and early 2K's, and was a paid SysOp/Forum Manager for the duration.
- Was part of a team (One of many such teams) that helped implement and test connectivity between individual online services, which led to what you now take for granted as the 'internet' today.
- Consulted on and tested several private BBS platforms in the mid to late 90's.
- Paid tester for several commercial titles, not all of them games.
- Alpha and Beta tester for most of the major AAA MMORPG's released over the last 18 years, with a scattering of other genres thrown in for variety.
- (That's not everything, but should be enough.)
Now that we've gotten that out of the way....
There are a lot of legitimate complaints about CP2077's failings and how it's release was handled. There are probably an equal amount of ridiculously entitled rants that are fueled more by rage than they are reason at this point. There's also a fair amount of white knighting going on that only serves to muddy the waters even more.
This isn't the first time a game launch has been botched. It's not even the first time one has been botched badly. It's also not going to be the last, it's simply the one everyone is bandwagoning at present. It's low hanging fruit, and there's little else to distract people from it, so it's getting a lot of attention. If there's one thing the media and gamers both can't resist, it's kicking someone when they're down.
And there's been a fair amount of kicking going on.
I'm not especially worried about CDPR taking the rants seriously and making things worse by compounding mistakes. Most of the time, the developers (Not just CDPR) know what's possible, and they know the difference between reasonable criticism and fanatical butthurt. I have no doubt that CDPR's dev team is VERY aware of what's broken and needs fixing. The fact that they've gone so far as to call out management on the state of the game's launch tells me that much.
I'm just as disappointed as most of the rest of you. I know what the trailers and the PR and the hype train sold us on, and I know what we got. The two are not one and the same. I also know that the dev team wasn't responsible for the bait and switch, that falls squarely on the suits, starting with the Board of Directors and continuing down the hill to the PR team who fed the hype, knowing it was smoke and mirrors.
Is the dev team 100% blameless in all of this? Not at all. But neither are they 100% responsible for the train wreck.
I've made my share of snarky remarks about bugs and other mistakes, but I've also put in close to 80 hours exploring everything I can find to do in the game. I'm definitely not one of those folks that refunded the game almost immediately but still spends his time on the forums mining salt. On the whole, despite the bugs and other issues, I've found it to be an interesting experience. I'm definitely looking forward to completing the game. I'm also looking forward to various bug fixes, content updates and other improvements.
I'm not giving the devs or CDPR a pass on this, they've certainly made a mess of things. At the same time, I'm not going to be completely unreasonable and hold their feet to the flames either. I've spent enough time in the industry to know mistakes were made, and to even identify a number of them. I've also spent enough time in the industry to know that I don't know everything.
TLDR: By all means, hold them accountable. But perhaps we can hold off on building the gallows just yet, hmm?
Weird thread. I wonder how much people realize it isn't really the task, it's the time to completion, allocated resources, and how they are all managed. Look up "Price's Law".
Producer and then designer for many years. Back then all you had to say was "I can do that", and you got the task. Keeping the job was a whole other beast. Lots of on the fly and after hours learning. But I would like to say I did a great job keeping teams motivated and on track. I once told a team we did such a great job, "God would have hired us to get it all done in 3 days". I had a bit of an ego back then. It's worse now...
Worked mainly as a contractor after that for various companies. I focus on IT and data centers now. I have some gripes about hacking, but that's just me being an IT perfectionist. So many missed opportunities...
I think the game is gonna take a couple years to have all the features "promised". Bugs don't bother me at all. Never really did. Unless there is a dev build with a lot of the "missing" features "working" in the shop it could take a while. There is also no guarantee that Leadership has been given the go for that anyways. Also noticed they are shifting towards "multiplayer" so who knows.
Producer and then designer for many years. Back then all you had to say was "I can do that", and you got the task. Keeping the job was a whole other beast. Lots of on the fly and after hours learning. But I would like to say I did a great job keeping teams motivated and on track. I once told a team we did such a great job, "God would have hired us to get it all done in 3 days". I had a bit of an ego back then. It's worse now...
Worked mainly as a contractor after that for various companies. I focus on IT and data centers now. I have some gripes about hacking, but that's just me being an IT perfectionist. So many missed opportunities...
I think the game is gonna take a couple years to have all the features "promised". Bugs don't bother me at all. Never really did. Unless there is a dev build with a lot of the "missing" features "working" in the shop it could take a while. There is also no guarantee that Leadership has been given the go for that anyways. Also noticed they are shifting towards "multiplayer" so who knows.
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