How to beat poison decks?

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DRK3

Forum veteran
I've been thinking how poison is problematic and one of the main reasons is its interaction with defenders.

Defenders are supposed to protect your valuable cards, and they do that job well enough... except when facing a poison deck, whether its NG double scenario or ST/SY still with enough poisons to cause problems.

The defender is targeted himself and you basically wasted a 9provision card, because its a lose-lose situation: you either purify the defender and he loses his defender status or you dont purify him and he's finished by poison the next turn.

A solution would be to make allied purifies only remove negative status like poison. Its the only way to make poison less effective against defenders without buffing defenders against other threats.

Of course there could also be a new mechanic to remove poison without purifying, an antidote, which has been suggested here before, but i wont put my chips on new mechanics because that would complicate the game and the dev team always avoids those.
 
The defender is targeted himself and you basically wasted a 9provision card, because its a lose-lose situation: you either purify the defender and he loses his defender status or you dont purify him and he's finished by poison the next turn.

A solution would be to make allied purifies only remove negative status like poison. Its the only way to make poison less effective against defenders without buffing defenders against other threats.

Having poison double-tap everything can be annoying. However, having a Defender protect Order cards, like Damien, can be equally demotivating. So, the question becomes: who is the biggest offender? Both need a counter. You could make an argument for nerfing poison, but I don't see one for buffing Defenders. Hmm... We've reached an impasse.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
I've been thinking how poison is problematic and one of the main reasons is its interaction with defenders.

Defenders are supposed to protect your valuable cards, and they do that job well enough... except when facing a poison deck, whether its NG double scenario or ST/SY still with enough poisons to cause problems.

The defender is targeted himself and you basically wasted a 9provision card, because its a lose-lose situation: you either purify the defender and he loses his defender status or you dont purify him and he's finished by poison the next turn.

A solution would be to make allied purifies only remove negative status like poison. Its the only way to make poison less effective against defenders without buffing defenders against other threats.

Of course there could also be a new mechanic to remove poison without purifying, an antidote, which has been suggested here before, but i wont put my chips on new mechanics because that would complicate the game and the dev team always avoids those.
Purifying and Poison are the only two counters to Defenders. Destroying them by damaging and killing them is near impossible (unless we are talking about ST or SY defenders where killing is easy and possible). Why should we remove one of the two counters to a very problematic mechanics (Defenders)? Moreover, using Poison still takes two turns to kill, enabling the defenders' main job of protecting an Order unit.

While I hate poison very much, I wouldn't want a nerf to it becoming a buff to Defender.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Purifying and Poison are the only two counters to Defenders. Destroying them by damaging and killing them is near impossible (unless we are talking about ST or SY defenders where killing is easy and possible). Why should we remove one of the two counters to a very problematic mechanics (Defenders)? Moreover, using Poison still takes two turns to kill, enabling the defenders' main job of protecting an Order unit.

While I hate poison very much, I wouldn't want a nerf to it becoming a buff to Defender.

That's the problem, defenders are just being used by NG to protect order units, so if you havent dealt with it in one turn, you're screwed. And then they're used in SY, because it spawns 2 defenders and the usual purify or poison isnt viable.

I dont want Defenders to be buffed either, they still should lose their status if purified by an opponent. But against poison they're currently useless and since poison is so prevalent that is why NG and SY are the only ones using defenders.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
Purifying and Poison are the only two counters to Defenders. Destroying them by damaging and killing them is near impossible (unless we are talking about ST or SY defenders where killing is easy and possible). Why should we remove one of the two counters to a very problematic mechanics (Defenders)? Moreover, using Poison still takes two turns to kill, enabling the defenders' main job of protecting an Order unit.

While I hate poison very much, I wouldn't want a nerf to it becoming a buff to Defender.
frankly the problem is SY and NG. It's odd that the Devs can't see that constantly buffing these two factions break other mechanics in the game. The SY defenders were problematic before but not impossible to deal with, not until Hidden Cache among other things. I've seen others make suggestions for altering poison. For example instead of destroying the unit straight away it acts similar to bleed but the damage increments each turn...you still apply it twice to take effect but you lose 1pt turn 1, then 2pts then 3 and so on until the unit is destroyed unless you purify it. The damage will still be done but straight up destroying the unit is too easy for NG. Honestly if NG was more balanced it wouldn't even be so much of an issue.
 
Having poison double-tap everything can be annoying. However, having a Defender protect Order cards, like Damien, can be equally demotivating. So, the question becomes: who is the biggest offender? Both need a counter. You could make an argument for nerfing poison, but I don't see one for buffing Defenders. Hmm... We've reached an impasse.

Or you could simply "move" the defender to another row. I know I always do that in my sociatel deck. And that's when opponent gets caught with his pants down. Hehehehe.

The counter to poison- swarm, small/medium sized units. By the time he actually gets enough counters on your units to kill 1 or max 2, you would have had a lead of about 15-20 points ahead and can pass. When you do so, it makes it awkward for the poison deck to continue playing, and if he does, you have massive advantage in rounds 2/3.

Thats my own version to counter poison. I don't know any meta/strats as I don't read into those much. Just enjoy playing the game on my own terms.
 
Having poison double-tap everything can be annoying. However, having a Defender protect Order cards, like Damien, can be equally demotivating. So, the question becomes: who is the biggest offender? Both need a counter. You could make an argument for nerfing poison, but I don't see one for buffing Defenders. Hmm... We've reached an impasse.
Defenders are fine if they get Poisened, after all they are supposed to take hits, not to make your cards immune in that row, but, main problem is NG has so many ways to deal with a defender, and there is so many control tools and poisens, that playing a defender against it doesn't make any difference. But playing it on time against ST for example, is good and valuable, because they have a healthy number of Poisens.
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I've been thinking how poison is problematic and one of the main reasons is its interaction with defenders.

Defenders are supposed to protect your valuable cards, and they do that job well enough... except when facing a poison deck, whether its NG double scenario or ST/SY still with enough poisons to cause problems.

The defender is targeted himself and you basically wasted a 9provision card, because its a lose-lose situation: you either purify the defender and he loses his defender status or you dont purify him and he's finished by poison the next turn.

A solution would be to make allied purifies only remove negative status like poison. Its the only way to make poison less effective against defenders without buffing defenders against other threats.

Of course there could also be a new mechanic to remove poison without purifying, an antidote, which has been suggested here before, but i wont put my chips on new mechanics because that would complicate the game and the dev team always avoids those.
Poisen is not a good mechanic, but, the main problem at the moment is the amount of Poisens NG and SY can have, I don't mind 4-6 Poisens in a control deck, as their tall removal, but 8 Poisen in a deck like hidden cache ? Or 14-15 Poisen in the NG deck? With double scenario? And many other forms of removal such is Yennefers Invocation, it's too much.
 
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Guest 4375874

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Or you could simply "move" the defender to another row. I know I always do that in my sociatel deck. And that's when opponent gets caught with his pants down. Hehehehe.

The counter to poison- swarm, small/medium sized units. By the time he actually gets enough counters on your units to kill 1 or max 2, you would have had a lead of about 15-20 points ahead and can pass. When you do so, it makes it awkward for the poison deck to continue playing, and if he does, you have massive advantage in rounds 2/3.

Thats my own version to counter poison. I don't know any meta/strats as I don't read into those much. Just enjoy playing the game on my own terms.
So you're filling your deck with small units while he's racking up points and removing those small units. Also what other decks would this be effective against? You'd be trying to beat a single deck and you don't choose who you will be playing so you'll likely run into I don't know SY with hidden cache and lose. Surely you see the flaw in that. Also moving the defender is often pointless, what are the odds that you will have, in the 2nd or 3rd round, a unit that moves a card and another card that will destroy a 5p Damien. I use Monsters and there's only one card that moves a unit and it's power is 2p. So i'd just lose on points alone even if I managed to stop their play. It has thrive but with maybe 3 cards alone in my hand, one of which to destroy Damien I'll likely lose because NG cards have high power with low cost.
 
So you're filling your deck with small units while he's racking up points and removing those small units. Also what other decks would this be effective against? You'd be trying to beat a single deck and you don't choose who you will be playing so you'll likely run into I don't know SY with hidden cache and lose. Surely you see the flaw in that. Also moving the defender is often pointless, what are the odds that you will have, in the 2nd or 3rd round, a unit that moves a card and another card that will destroy a 5p Damien. I use Monsters and there's only one card that moves a unit and it's power is 2p. So i'd just lose on points alone even if I managed to stop their play. It has thrive but with maybe 3 cards alone in my hand, one of which to destroy Damien I'll likely lose because NG cards have high power with low cost.

What kind of monsters build do you run? I can try to advise based on that.

I run an overwhelming hunger build. Whilst it doesn't fully counter poison, consume is an option/tactic to delay the poison intervals ticking (as he needs two instances to kill a creature).

My strat is basically quickly build up my board's score and killing his boosts whenever they appear specifically those thirsty dames, and passing when I have had a significant point advantage vs him.

Trust me, out of 10 matches, I win at least 7 to 8 of them. Even when they double-ball. Im rank 4 atm. It's annoying af though, I'll give you that. It does require some careful planned out thoughts and some estimation of your score vs what you think he will play next.
 
I've been playing poison decks since the mechanic appeared. I don't find them overpowered, but they are extremely double sided - you have easy games against some deck (mostly point slam, consume and those who rely to much on a single or a few card), and you have a very hard journey against other decks, like NR engines.

All the rest have been said already

-Bleed them R2 poison is useless on short rounds. I you have few cards in hand in R2 you may try to go for a 2/0, that's doable even with minus one card
-Don't give them easy targets, don't use consume until last round with MO
-Don't wast you artifact removal R1 against NG if you only have one. It will play it again R3 with Assire.
-Kill the Thirsty Dames, they are the main point source, all poison cards are 3-5 point range.
-Barely all their card need a target, deny it by starting playing weakest and special cards
-Against NG keep in mind the Cow Carcass, never put two good value card nearby.
 
So you're filling your deck with small units while he's racking up points and removing those small units. Also what other decks would this be effective against? You'd be trying to beat a single deck and you don't choose who you will be playing so you'll likely run into I don't know SY with hidden cache and lose. Surely you see the flaw in that. Also moving the defender is often pointless, what are the odds that you will have, in the 2nd or 3rd round, a unit that moves a card and another card that will destroy a 5p Damien. I use Monsters and there's only one card that moves a unit and it's power is 2p. So i'd just lose on points alone even if I managed to stop their play. It has thrive but with maybe 3 cards alone in my hand, one of which to destroy Damien I'll likely lose because NG cards have high power with low cost.
Wild boar deck is good Vs NG Poisen, because you don't run anything with 5 power or more, and they play lot's of units on board with no boost for them so it's easy to make them damaged and do a turn swing with wild boar, Thrive decks are, Strange as it seems, good, but thrive decks that optimize thrive, not just big units, playing on curve units(1s with thrive then 2 then 3 and so on), which is in some ways considered wide, and you should just push em hard in all rounds, having last say in a short R3 is important.
Rat Swarm is a good if you can manage it but I don't recommend creating it's cards, just create and try this deck if you already have the cards, it will basically make em burn their cards cus their are mostly units.
 
Not too bad I think.... homebrewed decks vs those NG poison [decks], well 90% of them were exactly the same ol-predictable type :)
 

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Defenders are fine if they get Poisened, after all they are supposed to take hits, not to make your cards immune in that row, but, main problem is NG has so many ways to deal with a defender, and there is so many control tools and poisens, that playing a defender against it doesn't make any difference. But playing it on time against ST for example, is good and valuable, because they have a healthy number of Poisens.
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Poisen is not a good mechanic, but, the main problem at the moment is the amount of Poisens NG and SY can have, I don't mind 4-6 Poisens in a control deck, as their tall removal, but 8 Poisen in a deck like hidden cache ? Or 14-15 Poisen in the NG deck? With double scenario? And many other forms of removal such is Yennefers Invocation, it's too much.

I agree.

It's the AMOUNT of poison NG has verses the available purify options on other decks.
And it's the just the amount of poison NG has, it's also how there are many cards that work with poison.
And then.. it's just not the poison, it's also how NG has many Lock card/combos..
And then.. it's just not the poison.. it's how low provison cost the 4-4 poison cards are.

Poison is imo a good mechanic they've introduced to the game. IT has high reward (ability to destroy a unit) and yet it can be countered by purify. Now the problem is when there is so much poison, .... it's no longer a high reward high risk. It's a high reward, low risk.

Simple logical thinking can help balance this game.
 
As ive seen a couple of people mention, im running a MO deck with a lot of bleed and removal, I seem to be ok against poison and cache, only deck I struggle with really is NR but flip a coin and it goes either way, think my last 25ish games ive lost maybe 5 matches 3 being to NR and 1 to NG and 1 to SC, I think maybe just have another look at your deck and instead of focusing on one or two cards to counter maybe look at countering the anility then it doesn't matter who you are against? IMO
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
As ive seen a couple of people mention, im running a MO deck with a lot of bleed and removal, I seem to be ok against poison and cache, only deck I struggle with really is NR but flip a coin and it goes either way, think my last 25ish games ive lost maybe 5 matches 3 being to NR and 1 to NG and 1 to SC, I think maybe just have another look at your deck and instead of focusing on one or two cards to counter maybe look at countering the anility then it doesn't matter who you are against? IMO
I don't see bleeding offering a solution to poison so I'm curious how does that help you exactly? I don't know who your playing against but a combination of locks and poison would easily disable a bleed deck. How are you countering poison with Assire Var Anahid and the double play Masquerade Scenario?
 
Against double Ball I usually try to run more control. If you start first, start with any garbage unit you have in hand, then play nothing but removal to make your opponent waste poisons. Obviously this is not applicable for every deck, but just another idea to try out.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
How to beat Poison decks...?

Play poison...

:censored:
lol can't beat em, join em
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Against double Ball I usually try to run more control. If you start first, start with any garbage unit you have in hand, then play nothing but removal to make your opponent waste poisons. Obviously this is not applicable for every deck, but just another idea to try out.
that's the problem, not every deck has adequate removal units. IF I start first and IF I draw the right cards I can win but only IF I win in the 2nd round. Lot of IFS and if you instead run into someone who has instead mixed Locks with Poison lol then your plans are thrown out the window. NG has soo many ways to tie different strategies together
 
Double Ball poison is really hard to play against. I found it difficult with my Mystic Echo Harmony deck or any monster deck. Typically, I would try to purify as much as I can, or consume with Monster units. The key is to bait out the poison units with low provision units.
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lol can't beat em, join em
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that's the problem, not every deck has adequate removal units. IF I start first and IF I draw the right cards I can win but only IF I win in the 2nd round. Lot of IFS and if you instead run into someone who has instead mixed Locks with Poison lol then your plans are thrown out the window. NG has soo many ways to tie different strategies together
I get what you are saying, I play mostly Skellige with ships, and removal, poison and locks are cancer for me. The whole double Ball is just game garbage, and I have no idea who thought of that, but.. there are a few ways to play around it, people mentioned consume, swarm and control heavy decks, bomb heaver might help, and big point swing plays do well also. Not every of those tips is applicable to you, and NG just might be the perfect counter to your deck, but in that case tweak your deck a bit to incorporate some of those techniques.
Persinonally I run double Alzur and i one stunning blow plus decoction, I start with bears and not boats, and use the mentioned renovals for his engines asap. No Bomb heaver for me, and that seems to do the trick for me. Again, every deck is different, and you should tweak it accordingly. Good luck.
 
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