How to fix combat by overhauling "Ping" and "Mark"

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So the issue I had, were that especially "ping" and "mark" make some of these abilities or weapons to strong. These things could probably still function with minor adjustments in the game, if these two abilities worked differently, because they do act a lot like wall hacking.
In AC, if I'm right, marking enemies with your flying buddy work exactly like Ping/mark. You can see them through walls and from way more far than ping (and you have to imagine it's "magic" because there is no "explanation" for this ability) or simply also alive/dead dectection enchantment in Oblivion/Skyrim.
And hacking enemies through walls, it's end now in 1.3. It's impossible to hack enemies directly through walls... You have to hack a camera through walls, and hope the enemies are in the line of sight of it (behind a wall, it's also impossible) ;)
 
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That is the same argument that people use when talking about the weapons or some abilities. "You think smart weapons are to good?.. well just don't use them", "Tech weapons to strong?.. don't use them"..

It shouldn't be up to the players to have to pick and choose between weapons and abilities due to them being to OPed. They should make these choices based on what type of character or playstyle they prefer. And the game should be able to handle it, so these choices are valid and give the player challenges that makes their choices feel meaningful and important.

When I started my playthrough I wanted to do a "diplomatic" playstyle, meaning I wanted to try to solve stuff in non violent ways, obviously looking through the skills, I fairly quickly figured out that it was not only going to be hard, but in fact impossible, as none of the skills support such playthrough, no where to put points into "Persuasion", "Charm" or anything like that, which you see in a lot of other RPG games. I honestly, thought that was possible, given that they had said that you could solve missions in so many different ways and whatever choice you made would have affects throughout the game and make it very unique. So I did loose interest in the skill system rather fast, most of the skills like "+X % damage" weren't especially exciting to me. And I did end up throwing most of my skills points into crafting, despite I hardly crafted anything, again, because it was to expensive and you constantly get new stuff anyway. And I still wanted to try to play the game in such way to avoid combat. But ultimately, I had to realize that the game simply doesn't support it, the choices I made, didn't seem to have any huge impact on the game, in fact when I had to reload once in a while and chose other options, the game ended the same place anyway, regardless of what I chose.

And I did in fact enjoy the combat in the beginning, when the game is balanced, I think its very good and entertaining. But at some point, you simply reach a level where its not a challenge anymore and at that point, I lost interest in the game and just hurried up completing it. Because there was no new stuff I needed, despite it being much better than what I had, when you can already instant kill everything, it doesn't matter if you have an extra legendary or not.

In regards to grinding, I completely agree, it is in general not very fun. But I don't think that this have anything to do with that either. Because I honestly don't think there is a lot of grinding going on in CP, sure you have these monster camps, police missions etc. but besides those, I would say that the cyber psychosis missions probably is the only other ones, that are like that. From my personal experience, CP doesn't really require you to grind a lot, I never completed the cyber psychosis quest and I also fairly quickly dropped the monster camps. I did a lot of side missions, because they were cool, not all of them, but had no problem getting to a level where I was a god.

So the issue I had, were that especially "ping" and "mark" make some of these abilities or weapons to strong. These things could probably still function with minor adjustments in the game, if these two abilities worked differently, because they do act a lot like wall hacking.

And again from a lore perspective, the enemies ought to behave as if these things are there, its a world filled with hacking, yet they behave as if its a normal shooter game, where getting into cover make sense etc. It doesn't and they should know that, because they will get shot through the wall or hacked through it, anyway.
I will agree that there is a balancing issue, but I don't really believe it is in the combat system itself as you describe it. I believe the imbalance comes instead from the levels that V attains. There really is no area for a level 50 solo character. None of the NPCs running around NC are anywhere near level 50 and are not solo based. If you look, you see pretty much everywhere that what exists are groups. Solo skills differ from group skills and I would argue that normally they don't run into someone pinging them and then shooting them with a sniper rifle from outside the combat area. It's not how groups operate. Nor do they normally run into someone with the System Reset quickhack. While V can buy it, that doesn't mean it is either common or something they are used to. Normally they deal with other gangs/corpos and have a shootout like you see all over NC. There are a couple of missions that are minorly difficult for a strictly straight up head to head - the end fighting missions (depending on if you went with fighting perks or not) and the final challenge when you face Adam Smasher. But those are the only higher level areas that exist in any sense and only due to boss mechanics more than anything else. And even Adam Smasher you can just run circles and attack when it is clear to kill him pretty easily and it doesn't require being death-machine-god-mode.
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And hacking enemies through walls, it's end now in 1.3. It's impossible to hack enemies directly through walls... You have to hack a camera through walls, and hope the enemies are in the line of sight of it (behind a wall, it's also impossible) ;)
There you go, problem solved. Now you will have to ping, mark, and then use a rifle instead of a hack...
 
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There you go, problem solved. Now you will have to ping, mark, and then use a rifle instead of a hack...
Yep, no more Ping > Contagion destruction without entering in a building.
You have to ping something, find a camera if available, find an enemy who aren't behind a wall if available (line of sight of the camera) and maybe launch a Contagion QH (and also have a great chance (greatly increased in 1.3) to been located because Contagion is an offensive QH and enter in combat directly).
 
Yep, no more Ping > Contagion destruction without entering in a building.
You have to ping something, find a camera if available, find an enemy who aren't behind a wall if available (line of sight of the camera) and maybe launch a Contagion QH (and also have a great chance (greatly increased in 1.3) to been located because Contagion is an offensive QH and enter in combat directly).
Actually, did they remove hacking hardware through walls? I thought that was still in the description.
 
Actually, did they remove hacking hardware through walls? I thought that was still in the description.
Hardwares you can hack it throught walls, no problem. So if you are outside a building, you can hack a camera through walls (after Ping on hardware) for example, but if the enemies are not in the line of sight of the camera (like in the next room), it doesn't help at all :)
You can eventually lure them with "Distract Enemies" to be able to see them, but it's not near easy than before.
 
I would say that is fairly accurate description, a portable wireless network. Pretty much a cell phone with more/different features. It is an easier way for people to communicate when not face to face. In other words, someone is out patrolling, the network allows them to instantly communicate to everyone that they saw something that everyone should know about. It is why everyone is instantly alerted when you attack someone. This is also pretty much exactly how things work in Konpeki Plaza - everyone connects to a wireless network for the run. From a group standpoint, having a portable network they can use makes sense so everyone knows what is going on rather than "Huh, what happened to Mikey? Where is he?" Which, btw, makes the whole concept of the ping exactly like what it is in game. A way to locate where Mikey is, a way to communicate with each other. Which also means the epic and legendary Sonic Shock quickhacks would essentially alter their connection to that network temporarily and make them unable to alert anyone.

Pinging the hardware network shows where the access points are in that network, always has. You do have to look for them (until you get the Extended Network Interface perk), but you do see them light up when you ping a piece of hardware. I don't believe there ever was any more to it than what exists - a way to mine data/eurodollars from the network. Maybe that will change, but I doubt it will become a requirement for accessing a network in most cases, and there are quite a number of places where no such interface exists around enemies.

Yes, that explains how cyberpunk's net is different from the real world, but it really doesn't explain much other than that the interfaces are due to the origins. It doesn't invalidate anything I said. At best, it is just another reason why there are more nets out there besides from a security standpoint. However there are clearly interconnected nets since we see a connection to the European Space Agency. Any way you slice it, there is some sort of multi-continent network, be it phone, company networks, or regional nets connected temporarily.
Starting at 10:10. This together with the ability they previously showed to connect to an enemy access point (without the monowire, put a guy to sleep and connect for the areas without access points). I'm not rekindling a discussion on cut content I'm just saying I believe their original ideas for netrunning were a lot more complex and I wish they made it more complex specially in this interaction of physically connecting to hardware to free more possibilities on quickhacing. It just makes the stealth element much more challenging. They could also add something like the more access points you connect to on a network the harder it will be for enemies to "track your position", etc...
 
Starting at 10:10. This together with the ability they previously showed to connect to an enemy access point (without the monowire, put a guy to sleep and connect for the areas without access points). I'm not rekindling a discussion on cut content I'm just saying I believe their original ideas for netrunning were a lot more complex and I wish they made it more complex specially in this interaction of physically connecting to hardware to free more possibilities on quickhacing. It just makes the stealth element much more challenging. They could also add something like the more access points you connect to on a network the harder it will be for enemies to "track your position", etc...
OK, I can see where you are coming from with that, and I do agree that it would make playing a netrunner more interesting.
 
In AC, if I'm right, marking enemies with your flying buddy work exactly like Ping/mark. You can see them through walls and from way more far than ping (and you have to imagine it's "magic" because there is no "explanation" for this ability) or simply also alive/dead dectection enchantment in Oblivion/Skyrim.
And hacking enemies through walls, it's end now in 1.3. It's impossible to hack enemies directly through walls... You have to hack a camera through walls, and hope the enemies are in the line of sight of it (behind a wall, it's also impossible) ;)
In AC, I would say it is different and even though there are no logic explanation for why you can do it. It still works more as an awareness ability and you have to mark each person, and at least in my experience you pretty much always miss some. Which means that your information is almost always a bit lacking. Also you don't have abilities to shoot or kill someone from one end of the castle to the other, simply because of the weapon types.

I think its good if they make it so you can hack through walls. I don't really remember doing that to begin with but simply the fact that you had line of sight was enough to break the combat.

I will agree that there is a balancing issue, but I don't really believe it is in the combat system itself as you describe it. I believe the imbalance comes instead from the levels that V attains. There really is no area for a level 50 solo character. None of the NPCs running around NC are anywhere near level 50 and are not solo based. If you look, you see pretty much everywhere that what exists are groups. Solo skills differ from group skills and I would argue that normally they don't run into someone pinging them and then shooting them with a sniper rifle from outside the combat area. It's not how groups operate. Nor do they normally run into someone with the System Reset quickhack. While V can buy it, that doesn't mean it is either common or something they are used to. Normally they deal with other gangs/corpos and have a shootout like you see all over NC. There are a couple of missions that are minorly difficult for a strictly straight up head to head - the end fighting missions (depending on if you went with fighting perks or not) and the final challenge when you face Adam Smasher. But those are the only higher level areas that exist in any sense and only due to boss mechanics more than anything else. And even Adam Smasher you can just run circles and attack when it is clear to kill him pretty easily and it doesn't require being death-machine-god-mode.
I don't know, its difficult to specifically say that its this only thing, whether its the enemies that needs minor changes, the weapons or V etc. The combat can be fixed in many ways I think. But to me "ping" and "mark" I would consider the easiest way to fix it (If it works :)) because its simply to change some already existing abilities with little effort. Meaning they don't have to remake a lot of things etc.

As you also mention in regards to the bosses, which to me clearly show that some of these abilities are not balanced is the fact that they completely disappear during them. Its not even that you can't cast them, they are not even in your Cyberdeck, but are just replaced with some predefined ones.
 
I don't know, its difficult to specifically say that its this only thing, whether its the enemies that needs minor changes, the weapons or V etc. The combat can be fixed in many ways I think. But to me "ping" and "mark" I would consider the easiest way to fix it (If it works :)) because its simply to change some already existing abilities with little effort. Meaning they don't have to remake a lot of things etc.

As you also mention in regards to the bosses, which to me clearly show that some of these abilities are not balanced is the fact that they completely disappear during them. Its not even that you can't cast them, they are not even in your Cyberdeck, but are just replaced with some predefined ones.
While I agree that this would fix the "mark them permanently" issue, it just wouldn't fix the ping issue. Any way you slice it, it just means you have moved the problem by adding in the complexity of circling the area from the outside, pinging, and then just sniping out the people one by one. You don't even need mark to do it, plus having to move allows you time to reinitialize your ping. Adding in an increasing resistance to ping may seem reasonable, from a game balancing perspective, but it is kind of game breaking from a netrunning perspective, especially if none of the enemies are netrunners. Does the resistance wear off?

If so, how long does the resistance last? Is it gone all of a sudden or gradual?

If not, do I have to not ping before committing to completing the mission? No scouting to see what I am up against? What if I feel I am not ready to do that mission at that point after seeing what I am up against, having now wasted one of my limited number of pings?

Suddenly not be able to locate any targets would seem to be a reason not continue at that point. It breaks gameflow. Do you end that mission for now and come back later or push on through? Also, not being able to ping someone right next to you could completely kill a stealth mission since you didn't notice them and then get caught out because you didn't know they were there. So do I need to save-scum every 10 seconds so I can reload when I get caught out just to complete a simple stealth mission?

There is already a limitation on ping with range of how far out you can detect enemies, btw. They fade out as you get farther from them. I am surprised you didn't just ask for this to be made shorter as it would solve a majority of your issue from the start.
 
While I agree that this would fix the "mark them permanently" issue, it just wouldn't fix the ping issue. Any way you slice it, it just means you have moved the problem by adding in the complexity of circling the area from the outside, pinging, and then just sniping out the people one by one. You don't even need mark to do it, plus having to move allows you time to reinitialize your ping. Adding in an increasing resistance to ping may seem reasonable, from a game balancing perspective, but it is kind of game breaking from a netrunning perspective, especially if none of the enemies are netrunners. Does the resistance wear off?

If so, how long does the resistance last? Is it gone all of a sudden or gradual?

If not, do I have to not ping before committing to completing the mission? No scouting to see what I am up against? What if I feel I am not ready to do that mission at that point after seeing what I am up against, having now wasted one of my limited number of pings?

Suddenly not be able to locate any targets would seem to be a reason not continue at that point. It breaks gameflow. Do you end that mission for now and come back later or push on through? Also, not being able to ping someone right next to you could completely kill a stealth mission since you didn't notice them and then get caught out because you didn't know they were there. So do I need to save-scum every 10 seconds so I can reload when I get caught out just to complete a simple stealth mission?

There is already a limitation on ping with range of how far out you can detect enemies, btw. They fade out as you get farther from them. I am surprised you didn't just ask for this to be made shorter as it would solve a majority of your issue from the start.
It could be done in many ways I guess.

1. Enemies already reset after sometime so it could reset at that point.
2. It could be something the enemies activated like a jamming/cloaking device that made them immune to pings for 1 minute or they could leave a decoy so it appeared as if they were one place rather than another.
3. Ping could simply act more like a sonar.

If you spec as a netrunner, you could have skills that made it easier or made ping work better or longer, maybe a chance of not increasing resistance etc.

I don't think its a huge problem to be honest, but if im not mistaken they did make some changes to ping in the last patch, which I haven't checked out, so maybe its not an issue anymore.
 
If you spec as a netrunner, you could have skills that made it easier or made ping work better or longer, maybe a chance of not increasing resistance etc.
Seem like to be the actual difference between the uncommon, rare, epic and legendary version (Ping stays active longer) and quick to upload with INT skill.
I don't think its a huge problem to be honest, but if im not mistaken they did make some changes to ping in the last patch, which I haven't checked out, so maybe its not an issue anymore.
One change and it's not a minor change. With the legendary Ping, you are no longer able to hack enemies (only enemies) through walls :)
 
Seem like to be the actual difference between the uncommon, rare, epic and legendary version (Ping stays active longer) and quick to upload with INT skill.

One change and it's not a minor change. With the legendary Ping, you are no longer able to hack enemies (only enemies) through walls :)
Did you mistype? or did you actually mean that it can "only" hack through walls, but not if they are standing right in front of you?
 
Did you mistype? or did you actually mean that it can "only" hack through walls, but not if they are standing right in front of you?
You can hack hardware through walls like before, but for enemies, they must be in your line of sight. Now, you can't Ping enemies and launch contagion or any QHs on enemies without entering in a building.
 
You can hack hardware through walls like before, but for enemies, they must be in your line of sight. Now, you can't Ping enemies and launch contagion or any QHs on enemies without entering in a building.
Hopefully that will help, haven't played CP for a long time now :)
 
Hopefully that will help, haven't played CP for a long time now :)
It isn't really all that much of a change, if you can ping an enemy, you can still see and snipe them through walls I believe. I haven't gotten a legendary ping yet, so I am only going by what LeKill3rFou said. In fact, in my new run I haven't even gotten Jackie killed yet. :LOL: I have been trying to figure out exactly what resets vehicles you don't own. At this point, it looks like the vehicle resets when the individual you take it from resets. At least, a couple of bikes I had nabbed off of a single group of enemies despawned in the parking garage at the same time, one of which had been there almost the entire time they were unconscious, when they respawned while V was sleeping. And apparently it has nothing to do with how far you get from the vehicle as people have suggested since I had been all the way out in Northside and the Arasaka Waterfront for quite a while.

Anyhow, back on topic, I think that the only way to reasonably make a change that would deal with the ping issue would be cutting the range you can see pinged enemies at. Otherwise you are introducing new game mechanics that would also need to be balanced into the game while there is no obvious existing game mechanics for them. I would also note that you can't see pinged enemies though certain things anyway, usually things you can hack.
 
It isn't really all that much of a change, if you can ping an enemy, you can still see and snipe them through walls I believe. I haven't gotten a legendary ping yet, so I am only going by what LeKill3rFou said. In fact, in my new run I haven't even gotten Jackie killed yet. :LOL: I have been trying to figure out exactly what resets vehicles you don't own. At this point, it looks like the vehicle resets when the individual you take it from resets. At least, a couple of bikes I had nabbed off of a single group of enemies despawned in the parking garage at the same time, one of which had been there almost the entire time they were unconscious, when they respawned while V was sleeping. And apparently it has nothing to do with how far you get from the vehicle as people have suggested since I had been all the way out in Northside and the Arasaka Waterfront for quite a while.

Anyhow, back on topic, I think that the only way to reasonably make a change that would deal with the ping issue would be cutting the range you can see pinged enemies at. Otherwise you are introducing new game mechanics that would also need to be balanced into the game while there is no obvious existing game mechanics for them. I would also note that you can't see pinged enemies though certain things anyway, usually things you can hack.
I had the impression that after 1.3 all vehicles despawn after a reload. Even owned ones but we can call them. That's how it's been happening for me as far as I can tell
 
I had the impression that after 1.3 all vehicles despawn after a reload. Even owned ones but we can call them. That's how it's been happening for me as far as I can tell
I can categorically deny that, at least on pc and with the bikes. I have had them across multiple game sessions, even after quitting out of the game. They consistently stayed put in the garage at V's megabuilding (and one on the sidewalk by the motel parking lot entrance where you rescue "the cheetah") and when they did disappear, it was when the group I had taken them from after dropping all the enemies respawned (or woke up since I didn't outright kill them - whatever the game thinks happened which is approximately 24 hours in-game time). At least, once they did disappear, the enemies were back where I took the bikes from again (along with 3 more bikes). I honestly don't know when they despawn if you just highjack a car, I was referring specifically to the gangs and the bikes I took from them - my preferred mode of transportation since they are more controllable in my opinion plus it is easier to avoid other vehicles. https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/pibtv7/do_vehicles_despawnreset_on_game_load/
 
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