How to handle non-combat characters?

[blank_redge]

How to handle non-combat characters?

In classic MMO / RPG games, the Holy Trinity is the Tank, the Rogue, and the Healer.

But, 2077 ain't yer land of elves and dragons.


Corporate / Fixer / Media / Rockerboy.

While these characters might not optimized for combat, I wouldn't expect the entire game to just be cut-scenes and dialogue trees between "boss fights."

So, if these Roles should be introduced to 2077, how should they be implemented?

 

[ComradeNexus]

Thankfully RPGs existed before the Tank / Damage / Heal nonsense that's used in MMORPGs these days. Cyberpunk 2020 starts you off with points for both your Career Skills and your Pickup Skills. Even if your Career Skills don't include a weapon (Corporate/Media/Techie/Rockerboy/Med Tech/Netrunner), you could still use your Pickup Skills points (INT + REF) to train in Handguns, Brawling, Melee, Martial Arts, etc.

Your character is only useless in combat if you deliberately handicap yourself. Hell, even if you made a mistake at creation you could get a Chipware socket and know any skill you want for a reasonable price.

 

[kilravok]

Additionally to that, if implemented well, those "non-combat" classes will have skills that "combat" classes don't have. A netrunner is inherently non-combative while in the net, on grounds of his body being a stiff or limb sack of meat, unable to even notice that it is being shot to shreds. This is true even if the Netrunner has cyber-muscles, subdermal armor, reflex boosters, Titanium bone lacing and grade 3 smartgun systems and all the elite skills to go with it. Can't be used while the netrunner does what netrunners do....besides, if the netrunner wasted so much skill points and money on that stuff, he won't be any good as a netrunner....
Similar goes for riggers (drivers) Rocksters, Techies, Med-Techs, Fixers, Medias, Corporates.......except, they don't become defenseless when doing their job.
They can learn to fight if they please, but every skillpoint and credit spent on combat is a reduction in their professional potential. And in a well ballanced runner gang, non of the jobs is worthless.

 

[wisdom000]

Please check out this post:
http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/65-Let-s-talk-Cyberpunk-2077-classes-roles?p=5571&viewfull=1#post5571

Honestly, med tech, tech, and rockerboy... I simply cannot think of any meaningful way to implement them as a primary character role... at least not in any way that wouldn't turn the game into a boggled mess or just an alltogether dissatisfying experience for everyone involved.

 

[blank_redge]

Really? I could TOTALLY see me playing any of those characters.

Med-tech: wading in to the thick of an op with the rest of the extraction team, providing cover fire while the Solos do the "heavy lifting" and patching up whomever needs to get patched up, and stabilizing the "client" to make sure they don't bleed out on the AV ride back.

Techie: no (dumb) lock that can't be defeated! No car that can't be hotwired! No APEX defense system that can't be upgraded! No microwave that... wait, no; it's fracked. Well, three out of four ain't bad. =p

Rockerboy: "We need to get close enough to the "client" to make contact, but we can't get in this exclusive club." "No worries; allow me..."

...

"So, you need a bit of "social unrest" at (x) location at time? Sure; at my next gig, let me flyer / talk to the crowd about this demonstration, get some bodies out for the cause."

...

"...HOW much is it to rent that aerodyne???" "If we don't get an aerodyne, ANY aerodyne, we're not gonna be able to complete the job..." "No worries; lemme talk to the person at the counter, see if I can work that famous charm..."

 

[wisdom000]

Um... even in the context of your description pal, they sound like backup support characters....

And the rocker... what exactly is gonna do when trouble goes down... play his guitar at them? Make them question his gender through the fashion choices he makes of makeup, spandex, and long permed hair?

How are the mechanics that would allow those characters to shine going to implemented in a game where the other classes are set to shine as well? you can't really, unless the choices of roles in the game itself becomes so watered down as to become almost meaningless...

How is every single mission going to create a medical emergency? Is he the clean up crew after the fun stuff has already gone down?

With a techie, sure he can do all of those things... but whats he going to do once he has?

And there is just no game situation, tabletop or video, where a rocker is an integral part of any group that isn;t a band... as I said, for rockers to be viable, the game kind of has to revolve around them... which would make a pretty dissapointing game for anyone who didn't want to play a rocker...

 

[blank_redge]

Um... even in the context of your description pal, they sound like backup support characters....

And the rocker... what exactly is gonna do when trouble goes down... play his guitar at them?

I picture it as not being terribly different from the Fallout model; where you can choose to be strong in one area, but weak in another. So, while the Rockerboy *can* bust out the gat and return fire, he is, of course, not as skilled as the Solo, or the Cop that dumped a lot of points in to a firearm skill at character creation.

Which brings me to the point: what prevents a player from dumping a lot of points into combat-related pick-up skills? I would no sooner expect a Cop or a Solo to be good at Netrunning than I would expect a Rocker / Med-Tech / Techie / Corporate to be good in direct combat, but I'd like to believe that the game will be designed in such a way that a lot of the story-line can be advanced without direct combat, if I so choose. (Again, referrring to the Fallout model.)

 

[Sardukhar]

Wisdom, Wisdom, Wisdom. Your hairy prejudices are showing through again.

There are plenty of Cyberpunk situations that don't involve combat and a good RPG should allow non combat ways to handle most if not any situation. That was the memorable bit of games like Planescape Torment and Deus Ex. Stealthwise, at least for DX.

Rockers are viable because Charismatic Leadership gives them followers. That gives them access to all those followers skills. And they can pop it at need. That plus their rep and subsidiary skills makes them an ideal social control class. Remember, Rockers aren't merely musicians. Not at all. The are any character that uses their fame, creative ability and persuasiveness to influence people. Hitler, of course, was the extreme evil example of this.

So you could be a comedian Rockerboy, a writer, a movie star. And you can solve quests without getting your hands dirty at all, ever. Where they don't let you in because of your innate cool and style, your followers get you in. You are a puppetmaster if cynical, a prophet if not.

Of course, that bores hell out of you and I and loads of other people compared to vaulting ten feet and sticking a heel-spike throug a cerebellum, but hey. It's an RPG. I appreciate the option to leave my filthy, doomed, already-dead enemies alive.

 

[227]

There are plenty of Cyberpunk situations that don't involve combat and a good RPG should allow non combat ways to handle most if not any situation. That was the memorable bit of games like Planescape Torment and Deus Ex. Stealthwise, at least for DX.

Exactly this. One of the best things about Torment was the fact that you can outsmart even the final boss verbally and avoid the fight completely. Same for Fallout. There are many older games with creative ways of completing quests without having to resort to combat, and I hope they draw inspiration from some of those.

 

[Aditya]

Exactly this. One of the best things about Torment was the fact that you can outsmart even the final boss verbally and avoid the fight completely. Same for Fallout. There are many older games with creative ways of completing quests without having to resort to combat, and I hope they draw inspiration from some of those.

And you are also forgetting Dishonored. I love that game, didn't have to kill a single person in the entire game. Well except for those already dead plagued fellas and rats lol

 

[kilravok]

I could well see a Rockerboy being a con artist and hustler, paired up with a fixer to sell his goods. Besides, whom are you calling backup? What gives the idea that Medics and Techies are not already primary charcter types? The Medic, Tech and Netrunner are doing the heavy lifting, the important parts of the job. The Solo only makes sure nobody disturbs them while they're working. THAT is your sidekick backup supporting role.

 

[Sardukhar]

Besides, whom are you calling backup? The Medic, Tech and Netrunner are doing the heavy lifting, the important parts of the job. The Solo only makes sure nobody disturbs them while they're working. THAT is your sidekick backup supporting role.

Sure, sure. NOW HEAL ME.

W2B Healer 4 Arasaka run. Have Tank.

 

[Yngh]

I hope for plenty of non-combat gameplay:

1. A good hacking system is a must - without it, playing as a Netrunner will be boring.
2. Many dialogue-based ways of talking your way out of combat would be great.
3. It should be possible to hire other people to do the dirty job for you - in this case both money and influence could be handy.
4. Obviously, infiltration/stealth is very important. I loved the fact that DHR allowed me to get past enemies without killing them.
5. A nice haggle system, with a chance of failure, so if you piss someone off, their will actually charge you more.

 

[kilravok]

I hope for plenty of non-combat gameplay:

5. A nice haggle system, with a chance of failure, so if you piss someone off, their will actually charge you more.

If it is a bad failure, let them refuse to do business with you.....fail many times with the same dealer, they refuse your custom permanently or even try to kill you for parts.

 

[Yngh]

Yeah, well, the point is that many games that include a haggle system of sorts don't punish you for failure.

IMO the game shouldn't be only about success or status quo, sometimes the player should FAIL and feel the consequences and I'm not talking about death here, because that simply means a reload unless you are playing on a special difficulty mode or sth.

 

[rad_cow]

I think a lot of people overlook parts of games like Mass Effect on the Presidium and Elder Scrolls games within cities. It's been done before where entire questlines are done with little to no combat. I think there should be a great deal of missions and alternate paths that utilize investigations, conversations (probing for information) and heated confrontations. Looking at a job like being a CIA agent you have to notice, they rarely fire a weapon or are fired at, yet it's one of the most intense and dangerous jobs. They'll work their way into certain positions for intel, falsify documents, pose as somebody else, etc. There's plenty of non-combat conflict to be had.

The key to great non-combat gameplay is a myriad of possibilities and a lack of information. You should have to discover, on your own, 90% of the details of the mission. Simply chasing down leads starting with little information and having to use the resources you have and people you know to reach your goal. Sometimes these different paths should lead to confrontation (a small firefight in a back alley or in public places where the choice of weapon is usually a handgun). Or confrontations involving a single shot even. Just because you kill a person, usually defenseless, doesn't make you a combat class. Killing a top dealer in a drug cartel is sure to draw attention to you from the one in charge and such situations as that. It doesn't always have to lead to full on combat. Perhaps killing off that dealer opened up a new position and impressed the boss.

Anyway.. Yeah.

Edit: Saw an typo.

 

[d1am0ndback]

They can use non-lethal weapons along with stealth, amirite? As well as a high level of charisma/speech.

 

[blank_redge]

If I recall, the upside about less-than-lethal weapons were that they ignored soft armor. So, unless you're performing a corporate extraction, it's unlikely that you'd encounter hard armor (which had double the armor bonus against LTL weapons.)

I'd be quite happy to beanbag-gun all of the security guarding a warehouse to drop 'em quicker.

Of course, I'd coup de grâce all of 'em afterwards. =p

 

[username_3641406]

tazers and stun guns can do wonders no matter what armor they be wearing if you want to leave them alive...... assuming they didn't see your face to start with ,

If you have the right skills you should be able to talk your way ...out of or into, as the case may be , the situation at hand

 

[Sardukhar]

Although given the teaser trailer deals with a murderous Cyber Psycho, good luck talking your way out of that. Or non-lethal - serious cyber ignores most of that.

Seems to me the non-combat Role choice at that point is Minions! Send them in!