How would you design a Night City MMORPG?

[CulannHS]

Being a longtime MMO player (30 MMOs so far) I have so many ideas on how to build a Cyberpunk MMO I could write a entire book on it. Classes, skills, content, map layouts, mechanics, NPCs...the works.

One thing I would DEFINITELY include that CP 2077 failed miserably on, is actual, real Netrunning. With consequences, ICE, and the whole catalog of software and hardware that goes along with it. Cyberdecks, Aardvark, Succubus, Killer, and on and on and on. What CP 2077 did with "Netrunning" was not Netrunning.

Edit: Went back and actually counted the MMOs I've played, and it's closer to 40. Significant other reminded me of some we'd played together I'd forgotten.

 

[Didacgomez]

One thing I would DEFINITELY include that CP 2077 failed miserably on, is actual, real Netrunning. With consequences, ICE, and the whole catalog of software and hardware that goes along with it. Cyberdecks, Aardvark, Succubus, Killer, and on and on and on. What CP 2077 did with "Netrunning" was not Netrunning.

I cannot think of a good way of mixing meat time and Netrunning, even in the tabletop CP2020 was difficult to do a game session that was engaging to both Solo's and Netrunners and in CP RED Netrunning is closer to CP 2077 (there is ICE and such, but relies on physical infiltration and VR googles;kind of combat netrunners). Also lorewise, the NET doesn´t exist anymore.

But fundamentally, I cannot think how you combine millisicond timeframes for netrunners (thought/computing speeds) with human world perceptions of 250ms or so in a real time multiplayer that have both netrun and meat space.

Maybe the old "Hardwired" universe hacker-was a supplement for CP2020-?, it used a fictional EBASIC language-more pseudocode that anything- (we can accept Python today I guess):

It involved a lot of "leg" as a detective to find clues in garbage, talk with friends of the target ,observation...

Best solution, would be "Netrunner: the game" then you don´t need to match timeframes between sleeping beauties and solo's.

PS: Neuromancer style "conceptual hallucination" Netrunning (you know your avatar in cyberspace, data fortress, daemons flying) is just one type of hacking possible not the only one in a cyberpunk universe.

 

[Jetro30087]

Eh, an MMOFPS that has two massive teams fighting over nodes in the city like Planetside 2.

 

[Warthog91]

Pen and paper style. With up to 4 Players starting out with their chosen lifepath, and then getting a call about a gig from a fixer. Where they will meet up with the other players and then the story branches out from there.
The whole map available, heists, assassinations, gang alliances /affiliations. Yeah let it play out like a good old game of D20.

 

[ash23neuro]

Eh, an MMOFPS that has two massive teams fighting over nodes in the city like Planetside 2.

Gangs wars! Team up with one and go fight anothers over influence in NC.

 

[CulannHS]

I cannot think of a good way of mixing meat time and Netrunning, even in the tabletop CP2020 was difficult to do a game session that was engaging to both Solo's and Netrunners and in CP RED Netrunning is closer to CP 2077 (there is ICE and such, but relies on physical infiltration and VR googles;kind of combat netrunners). Also lorewise, the NET doesn´t exist anymore.

But fundamentally, I cannot think how you combine millisicond timeframes for netrunners (thought/computing speeds) with human world perceptions of 250ms or so in a real time multiplayer that have both netrun and meat space.

Maybe the old "Hardwired" universe hacker-was a supplement for CP2020-?, it used a fictional EBASIC language-more pseudocode that anything- (we can accept Python today I guess):
View attachment 11194024
It involved a lot of "leg" as a detective to find clues in garbage, talk with friends of the target ,observation...

Best solution, would be "Netrunner: the game" then you don´t need to match timeframes between sleeping beauties and solo's.

PS: Neuromancer style "conceptual hallucination" Netrunning (you know your avatar in cyberspace, data fortress, daemons flying) is just one type of hacking possible not the only one in a cyberpunk universe.

I am going to strongly, albeit politely, disagree that in CP Netrunning is closer to the actual thing. It is most definitely not.

I'm going to use a very bad example here, as ONLY a example. In Elder Scrolls Online, there is a (and I use this term loosely) raid for a place called Hel Ra Citadel. Typically, a 12 man team splits into two teams of 6, and one goes "up" and the other "down". Each direction has a boss, and other trash mobs on the way to it. Simultaneously, both teams are fighting to not only survive, but kill the trash mobs, and their respective boss. It is important to note that the "up" team has some extra objectives such as destroying catapults which rain fire down on the "down" team, and opening gates for the "down" team as well.

Conventionally speaking, while it was somewhat difficult to keep Solos and Netrunners occupied due to CP 2020 being turned based, this would not be the same situation in a MMO. If you take my aforementioned example...The "up" team is / are Netrunners cutting up the ICE, dealing with the software and other Netrunners in a system, and the "down" team are the Solos, with bodies in realspace using bullets, blades and etc to handle the run from their side.

In RL terms, we recognize that the time frames are vastly disparate. As you pointed out, thought/CPU speeds are vastly shorter than what occurs with Solos. This, I agree. But this is a concept borne of imagery, and to promote the environment of the Netrunner. From a MMO standpoint, it would all depend on the MMO's "heartbeat" and GCD. Again, imagery and environment would be vastly different for a Netrunner as opposed to a Solo, but both are interacting in RL time AT the same time, if that makes sense. In short, it means both are actually doing things at the same speed via MMO mechanics, but the premise is that one is moving much faster (Netrunners) than the other as a consequence of CPU speeds / thoughts / et al.

On another note, if the Net doesn't exist, then how do we have websites for all the various corps? I think you may be mistaken here. There is a "new" Net, which encapsulates all of the corps and data transmissions, and via the Blackwall, isolates out "Rogue AI" so they cannot attack / assault / destroy any locations in the "new" Net. This is sort of reiterated when you have to physically assist Alt in getting in so she can destroy the satellite(s) in one version of the ending. You opened a hole in the "new" Net to let a Rogue AI in through the Blackwall, essentially. Additionally Doctor Paradox says "..that corps tell you the new Net is safe and secure...". Which sort of indicates to me there's a global internet. Finally, how are these people sending all these email messages / files between all these computers if the Net doesn't exist?

Additionally, I am reasonably sure Netwatch, NCPD, Millitech, Arasaka, Petrochem and etc have ICE surrounding their corporate online infrastructures. Otherwise as a example, Millitech could freely access Arasaka, etc. This is obviously not the case so there are safeguards (read: ICE) in place to prevent such from occurring.

As a sidenote, when you say "Hardwired" I think of the book by Walter Jon Williams, which featured Sarah (a razor-girl) and Cowboy, who drover a panzer cross country running contraband.

 

[Didacgomez]

In RL terms, we recognize that the time frames are vastly disparate. As you pointed out, thought/CPU speeds are vastly shorter than what occurs with Solos. This, I agree. But this is a concept borne of imagery, and to promote the environment of the Netrunner. From a MMO standpoint, it would all depend on the MMO's "heartbeat" and GCD. Again, imagery and environment would be vastly different for a Netrunner as opposed to a Solo, but both are interacting in RL time AT the same time, if that makes sense.

Is where I cannot see how it works if both Netrunners and Solo's should coexist,is not related to turn based of tabletop. An scenario can be like this:
-Assault corpo headquarters of Orbital Air (for not using always Arasaka/Militech). Solo team is direct assault,while Netrunning team mission is: break ICE, plant a Trojan so when Solo is assaulting the Netrunner can disable defenses,open doors,give directions.
The ICE assault should be before the actual assault, and since in real life we cannot accelerate our reaction times it might take the same time as the Solo attack-i.e I guess you want a full Netrunner combat,worth of one hour of gameplay-. While Netrunners are connected in a more accurate description will be: "I connect", and the solo will wait a minute and the Netrunner will be either dead or succeed. Then during Solo part,Netrunner will only execute "sysadmin" commands (see T-BUG in Konpeki, you wait,then proceed,then she dies in a fraction of second). Is not like splitting two assault teams IMHO.

On another note, if the Net doesn't exist, then how do we have websites for all the various corps? I think you may be mistaken here. There is a "new" Net, which encapsulates all of the corps and data transmissions, and via the Blackwall, isolates out "Rogue AI" so they cannot attack / assault / destroy any locations in the "new" Net.

The way that I see, is that its more similar to isolated LAN networks. Each LAN is your datafortress, and there is an expansion of "local"-game suggest citywide- intranets with point-to-point connections between LANs/local intranets-at least,is why it seems that Google dissapeared from our webbrowser in 2077-. But is not the old NET that is global interconnection of devices, there is some lore on that (although, I´m completely fine to an old style net for a game an screw up any lore I like parallel universes).

As a sidenote, when you say "Hardwired" I think of the book by Walter Jon Williams, which featured Sarah (a razor-girl) and Cowboy, who drover a panzer cross country running contraband

Indeed, it was adapted as supplement (alternate world) to CP2020 by Walter Jon Williams himself. If you recall the book, running was not overly emphasized (my capture of pseudo-code comes directly from that supplement). Also, if you have the chance check Neuromancer book... Case spends most of the book "unplugged", just code and push the hit button with some minor commands once ICE is broken (his incursion to steal an "engram" was more detective work, than action) .

But still, even if for gameplay I think that a "wizards in cyberspace" can be adapted (we can just set it at 2021-22,4th Corpo War full war on the net) I still see difficult to combine "grunts" on the floor with netrunners at the same time,since in Solo time they cannot wait for ICEbreaking if takes the same time as storming the building and just switching on/off something.

 

[GethroShepard]

I really doesn't understand your problem with the hacking.

Yeah, the fact that V is a wizard able to hack everything everywhere is bad, lore-wise. But let players be actual netrunners on a RPG campaign is really possible.

Just look at ghost in the shell. You have party members that stay in a car or other vehicle close to the action and hack their way through. They give indications, maps, enemy location and strenght. Open doors for the party and, when they can not do much more, deconnect and join the fray, gun on hand.

The simple fact a netrunner must move at the speed of light is absolutely impossible to make in a actual game. Probably in the distant futur when players are plugged at their game console and use their actual brain to play, it will be possible, but not now. The only game I know where speed of light fight where reality was Zone of the Enders 2 and playing hours long without blinking is tiring.

it is absolutely possible to make classes like in the CP2020 sourcebook. And it will make the MMORPG counterpart a lot better than the single player experience. Sadly...

 

[Didacgomez]

Just look at ghost in the shell. You have party members that stay in a car or other vehicle close to the action and hack their way through. They give indications, maps, enemy location and strenght. Open doors for the party and, when they can not do much more, deconnect and join the fray, gun on hand.

Even in Ghost in The Shell, I can think of quite a few examples that hacking goes the way that I described: Ishikawa and Togusa going to sleeping beauty mode to investigate a guy; explaining that they are going 1st to investigate financial accounts of relatives; Kusanagi visiting a hacker that will provide her with a fake ID, security clearance and disable security before she goes to company headquarters to make it easier the infiltration. Any time that you see "I switch off a camera", the infiltration sequence was already done.

But its not really maybe that important, I mean is a game and we can just re-write lore and mechanics.
Maybe the difference comes down about the "class system"; I will try to explain why I think that any game that a class system translate in just "different ways to do the same" (i.e. mass battles in cyberspace for me sounds the same as mass battle in real space) is not interesting to me.

Imagine your typical D&D pen and paper party of a Barbarian, a Rogue and a Wizard (is a party of hardcore players that like permadeath, so screw up the monk healing is for loosers). They go inside a room and find a bunch of goblins, the rogue decides to stay apart because he is weak and coward, the wizard wants to save his magic powers in case something more dangerous appears so your good old barbarian just makes salami slices of the goblins (he is a level 50 barbarian, so he doesn´t even sweat). Looking around after the fight, they realize that the room doesn´t have an exit so your Barbarian will say "just go back and we will find another route", but your wizard detects "a magical camouflage TM in one of the walls " and uses a spell to eliminate it. The adventurers are going to proceed through the new opening but the Rogue says "wait, there is a trap give me a minute" disarms it and then they go the next room.

IMHO, if you implement a class system in a game should be for reasons like that: create synergies, you cannot do everything on your own and should not play exactly the same (i.e killing with lightning bolts its conceptually the same as killing with swords). Different players with different classes should co-operate to solve the things.

So if they do a MMO with Cyberpunk, if the only differences between classes is "you kill that way or this other way" I don´t see it that interesting. Even if by popular vote you end up with this game, I guess we can agree that Netrun maps should be quite different than Solo maps right?, I mean you cannot just reuse NC map and buildings you need to "Gibsonize" them to represent data structures and even physics will probably need to be tweaked (I guess that nobody wants a Netrunner that goes walking around need flying in 3D space and few other things).

I don´t know RED ENGINE limitations, but still sounds to me like two separate games (different map,combat animations,overworld movement and interaction, physics)

it is absolutely possible to make classes like in the CP2020 sourcebook. And it will make the MMORPG counterpart a lot better than the single player experience. Sadly...

This is where I'm doubtful, unless you transform all of them into combat classes (how rockerboy "charismatic leadership" works without role-play, or "credibility" of a Media?)
Actually I think that the single-player experience is quite satisfying beeing a class-less system. Its a 1st person game, real time, to make it work with classes you will need AI companions that you can give instructions... but in real time without pausing I think it would be quite frustrating (or the typical thing that you are trying to infiltrate,your AI companions are completely invisible-funny, but stupid- or they are that bad infiltrating that they set-up always the alarms making infiltrations completely worthless)... There is a lot of freedom to adjust your "role" and most (if not all) missions have built-in redundance so you can stick to your preferred way of playing (I cannot think a single mission where my character development blocked me from progression, just had to look for a diferent approach).

PS: if you notice, there is a sequence that actually in-game you have 4 archetypes on the screen simultaneously: Johnny (Rockerboy),Rogue(Solo),Santiago(Nomad) and Thompson(Media). That sequence would have been exactly the same if the game allowed to switch to any other point of view. In original adventure, the archetype skills are role-played (Thompson spreading news of the concert, Johnny driving the crowd crazy so they clash with Arasaka security line) but Thompson and Johnny or Santiago don´t have any combat specific skill at all (Rogue should have been the one that did most of the kills actually, but just a concession to give the player something to do in that scene).

 

[Milfguard2077]

take the current game, add gta multiplayer

 

[ash23neuro]

take the current game, add gta multiplayer

IMO not everything would work in CP (I dont see running drugs factory etc.) but general idea about apartments, heists and other missions would fit. Take it to another level with anti-moder/cheating black ICE and we are good.

 

[Milfguard2077]

IMO not everything would work in CP (I dont see running drugs factory etc.) but general idea about apartments, heists and other missions would fit. Take it to another level with anti-moder/cheating black ICE and we are good.

yeah its a generalization but i think its the right gist, or design intent - player run clubs with music just sounds awesome, and races (patch driving some)

 

[phaerakhkaryn]

Just about the only thing that isn't a waste of CP universe would be a pretty 4k SWTOR clone built around gang membership, with combat ripped from ESO. And it would be as mediocre as it it sounds.

 

[CulannHS]

I thought a lot about how to answer responses regarding proper Netrunning instead of this bastardization we have now, and while I cannot ascertain peoples' experiences with MMORPGs, I can definitely say creating a CP 2020 style Netrunner class in a MMO is quite possible. I recognize others may not see the way HOW to do so, so feebly, I can only put forth the belief that it IS possible. I can see how it would be done, quite clearly in my own head, but unfortunately converting what I see playing out in my own head to a written explanation is not possible for me. Hence my long delay in a response to others' responses regarding Netrunning. And for my lack of explanation, I can only offer my apologies. I see it, but I simply cannot explain WHAT I see. I am reasonbly sure if I could chat with people to explain it, I could convey the explanation, but as for a written explanation, no unfortunately.

I think the crux of the issue is that I can see how to bypass the whole "speed of light" issue through MMO based mechanics, and perhaps others cannot. I will humbly offer up that I have played close to 40 MMOs, starting with the original EQ1 on day 1 of release. Most of the MMOs I've played (except for a few grinder style games - RF Online as a example) I've maxed out characters, including crafting & the best gear I that was accessible. Consequently, repetition breeds familiarity and out of that I can see how a Netrunner class could be implemented so that it works hand-in-hand with actual Solos, Medias and Rockerboys who are in the field.

On a related note, I have seen the Ghost in the Shell movies, and that is a hybridization, and not exactly what I would call Netrunning. I think, maybe there's some confusion in the interpretations between the generic term hacking and netrunning. For myself, hacking is what we have in CP 2077 now, and likewise what GitS did in their movies. Netrunning, is Gibson's interpretation of cyberspace, with cyberdecks, getting ICE, cutting said ICE, cyberdecks, and software such as Codecracker, Bloodhound, DataRaven, Sledgehammer, DecKRASH, Murphy, Aardvark, Killer ICE, WORM, and on and on. Closer perhaps, visually, to how things looked at the end of Johnny Mnemonic when the dolphin helps Johnny retrieve the data.

With that said, I think my biggest issue, upon reflection, is that CP 2077 offered up the best chance of actually seeing a real Netrunner class, even in single player mode, and Mike Pondsmith's interview regarding his deliberate intention to move away from what I've always considered Netrunning essentially killed my interest in playing the game completely. CDPR has the rights to Cyberpunk and with Pondsmith's explanation, it sounds very much like a death knell for any Gibson fans who are looking to experience what Case did in Neuromancer. in realizing that, I'll keep a eye on DLCs but it's sort of in a written-off state for me now.

My response is both long and ambling and for that I apologize to you, the readers. All I can offer by way of summary is that it is quite possible to make a MMO based Netrunning class, and yet, I cannot write you a explanation of how to overcome or bypass the "speed of light" issue.

 

[Milfguard2077]

With that said, I think my biggest issue, upon reflection, is that CP 2077 offered up the best chance of actually seeing a real Netrunner class, even in single player mode, and Mike Pondsmith's interview regarding his deliberate intention to move away from what I've always considered Netrunning essentially killed my interest in playing the game completely. CDPR has the rights to Cyberpunk and with Pondsmith's explanation, it sounds very much like a death knell for any Gibson fans who are looking to experience what Case did in Neuromancer. in realizing that, I'll keep a eye on DLCs but it's sort of in a written-off state for me now.

Cyberpunk 2077 gave us Cyberpunk 2077's version of a netrunner, a "real" netrunner class a defined by a different offering in a genre of cyberpunk is not what I expected when I got into this game. I expected "cyberpunk" themes in line with Pondsmith's imaginings of a cyberpunk world.

We are playing Pondsmith's netrunner, not Gibson's.

I think the quoted statement exemplifies the issue with cyberpunk and other games/media - which is consumer expectations. Expectations is the key word, because I will admit cyberpunk did not meet expectations on release (by that i mean as a stable game, polished code) - what we get confused with consumer expectations is emotional entitlement. Some one who is emotionally invested in a fantasy environment (over a period of time) and then upset/jaded/disenfranchised when the result doesn't match their individual fantasy. (longer the time, harsher the criticism)

First is the idea that the appreciator knows better than the artist. - This one I cannot fathom. When an artist creates a thing, its their thing. I think the best example of this is Star Wars, where Lucas has sold his creation to the fans because he "ruined it" with his vision. Another example is "this band sold out" - again blows my mind, why can't a person just like the one album and not the other? Whatever the artist produced is what the artist produced, it is their art? Do we have to love everyone of Vincent Van Gogh's paintings equally? Do they all have to match Starry Night? That should answer itself.

To carry off this point, and blend back in cyberpunk (as a genre)- look at the book, do androids dream of electric sheep vs the movie bladerunner - not the same overall but both solid contributions that are respected in their realms of art. So why are we okay with the differences? Why don't we ban the movie because it isn't the same? I'll help answer that - we should anticipate different results from different artist's using different mediums and appreciate them in the scope of the medium used to convey the artist's intent.

A big piece of this is the emotional fantasy of the consumer, people get very stuck in some "ideal" they created. MMO RP communities really highlight this behavior. Instead of being content with the available options and molding to the roles available you hear of people insisting on being "half-elf", "half-dragon", "a vampire" even where there is none in the scope of the game they are playing. they refuse to put down their ideal and interact with the art. Instead they modify the artists creation and available methods of interaction to suit the individual fantasy they want, and in turn make it a key point for other members of their community to acknowledge to fulfill their fantasy.

And fantasy - Fantasy - from benign idle thoughts, to deep sexual desire - Fantasies are complex and unique to the individual. I bring up sexual fantasy because i think its a pinnacle example. At its healthiest sex should be a shared consensual experience for all involved. When one is in a physical relationship with another human (base line example, two humans) these two people are sharing themselves with each other intimately, which is a beautiful thing. Both of the people in the relationship have sexual fantasies, over the course of the relationship these are not guaranteed to be filled. Although basic gratifying sexual activity is happening regularly, a singular fetish or sexual fascination may not be part of the experience. Now lets put our self in the equation, if I am with some one and they don't do one of the things I want should I complain that I have "always wanted to do this one thing for years, not one person will do this one thing with me, and now your not so im upset with you", that should be a red flag. Or imagine the inverse, you are with some one for a period of time, one time you do a certain action and then they expect you will now do that thing everytime, and if you won't they become upset with you. If that example doesnt work imagine sexual frequency or a first time experience for a couple. Frequency, "we used to everyday 3 times a day, now you don't and im upset." - This person is the jerk. Or in a new relationship, "we have been together for a long time, why arent we having sex yet?", - This person is a jerk, mad that the other isn't doing it at their pace.

Sewing it all together, when you are in a physical relationship with some one - you are the appreciator of them, and they share with you themself, they are artist and the art. For them you are the artist and art, and they the appreciator.

This applies to all sorts of media, there is art being made (movies, games, books, music) and consumers are appreciators - we are lucky to live in a world so richly full of media that lets us explore possibilities outside our reality. The abundance of art to enjoy in the modern world is due to the quality of life we have - that we can be so free in our time to enjoy these things is to be appreciated in itself and taken for granted constantly - I understand the state of the game not meeting expectations, (consumers expected a stable product, standard to the industry) but the content of the game should not be expected to follow any one ideal, it should be experienced ideally as it is - in that one should find contentment in the content

 

[casadechrisso]

I'm horrified of the MMO thought, I don't see any chance for the RPG part there. The first image coming to mind is some grinding kids in silly armor jumping all over the place while I'm trying to immerse myself, so due to the problem that MMOs have other players I wouldn't touch it.
That is, back in the day before microtransactions and live services there was a thing called private- or dedicated servers... something no developer makes any money from, so forget about it... but roleplaying in Night City only with people who like to roleplay and keep the immersion up would be awesome.
Not any hopes though.

 

[CulannHS]

@Milfguard2077

I'm not going to go and quote your whole post to aimlessly debate with you. Suffice to say I don't agree with you on your observation. I am content however to let you have the opinion, since everyone is allowed one. You DO realize however, Neuromancer came out in July of 1984, while Cyberpunk 2020 came out in September of 1984? Pondsmith simply developed into 2020, the Netrunner Gibson originally imagined as Case.

The "artist" (Pondsmith) had plenty of time to read the quintessential cyberpunk novel, like so many "appreciators" did and went on to develop something for Cyberpunk 2020 that everyone sort of nodded and agreed upon. Netrunning. They (Pondsmith) later went back on what they established, and turned it into something else(Cyberpunk 2077 - Nethacking), years later. Something else, that did not match their original vision (Cyberpunk 2020). That's not appreciator self-entitlement, that's simply disappointment.

On a final note, Nethacking in it's current state in the game is 100% superfluous at any difficulty level, with any lifepath. CP 2077 is mostly just Call of Duty with some GTA and WatchDogs mixed in and a "cyberpunk" wrapper. To the best of my knowledge there is no Netrunning in either GTA or Call of Duty, which would have at least separated it somewhat. Netrunning would have at least made CP 2077 stand out, had it been done according to the original 2020 vision.

 

[Didacgomez]

I´m going to be a little bit non-linear and off-topic (and long I'm affraid),I apologize in advance

And for my lack of explanation, I can only offer my apologies.

Don´t really think you should apologize at all, I tried to explain why I see two fundamental stoppers for combining in a game both "meat" and "cyberspace" time: different timeframes and classes should be complementary basically. Still think that a completely independent Netrunner game is feasible.

I can definitely say creating a CP 2020 style Netrunner class in a MMO is quite possible. I recognize others may not see the way HOW to do so, so feebly, I can only put forth the belief that it IS possible. I can see how it would be done, quite clearly in my own head, but unfortunately converting what I see playing out in my own head to a written explanation is not possible for me

I would have loved that you shared what you see clearly but at the same time you cannot put in written, because well its why forum are intended I guess.

. I will humbly offer up that I have played close to 40 MMOs, starting with the original EQ1 on day 1 of release. Most of the MMOs I've played (except for a few grinder style games - RF Online as a example) I've maxed out characters, including crafting & the best gear I that was accessible. Consequently, repetition breeds familiarity and out of that I can see how a Netrunner class could be implemented so that it works hand-in-hand with actual Solos, Medias and Rockerboys who are in the field.

Being an avid consumer != as a creator IMHO, I have in my bookstore 100's of books and I don´t pretend to be a writer. So I cannot take that as a sign of authority.

You DO realize however, Neuromancer came out in July of 1984, while Cyberpunk 2020 came out in September of 1984? Pondsmith simply developed into 2020, the Netrunner Gibson originally imagined as Case.

The "artist" (Pondsmith) had plenty of time to read the quintessential cyberpunk novel, like so many "appreciators" did and went on to develop something for Cyberpunk 2020 that everyone sort of nodded and agreed upon. Netrunning. They (Pondsmith) later went back on what they established, and turned it into something else(Cyberpunk 2077 - Nethacking), years later. Something else, that did not match their original vision (Cyberpunk 2020). That's not appreciator self-entitlement, that's simply disappointment.

On a final note, Nethacking in it's current state in the game is 100% superfluous at any difficulty level, with any lifepath. CP 2077 is mostly just Call of Duty with some GTA and WatchDogs mixed in and a "cyberpunk" wrapper. To the best of my knowledge there is no Netrunning in either GTA or Call of Duty, which would have at least separated it somewhat. Netrunning would have at least made CP 2077 stand out, had it been done according to the original 2020 vision.

Just few rambling here: 1st edition of Cyberpunk is actually from 1988 and 2nd edition CP2020 its 1990 (my personal copy is 1996, something like revision 2 translated to my mother tongue). According to himself, he didn´t read Neuromancer till later:
https://www.dicebreaker.com/categor...rpg-almost-killed-us-mike-pondsmith-interview

Some people doubt that, but original "Tron" film is from 1982 so is where maybe got the inspiration for his system in the 1st two editions of Cyberpunk (or maybe comes from Walter Jon Williams help with the 1st edition, because he was likely aware of Gibson work).

But I think, you are quite mistaken glorifying Gibson "Netrunning" since what you liked actually is Pondsmith one. In Gibson Sprawl Trilogy (Neuromancer,Count Zero,Monalisa Overdrive) + Burning Chrome hacking is quite old style:Case spends weeks planning how to break ICE in Sensored he didn´t fire a single daemon and only time he controlled an ICEbreaker was on his final incursion (and I don´t remember, if the ICEbreaker was controller by the Dixie Flatline); similarly in Count Zero you don´t see any Netrun battle just Bobby near flatlined almost in the 1st page and I don´t remember any active incursion to the Net in Monalisa (one by Tick as an observer,one by the Finn). Burning Chrome similarly, Netrunning intrussion is based in standard hacker practices of deception (pretending to be a data packed to get into the ICE,pretending to be a call) and lots of planning. Everytime one of the hackers get close to ICE without preparation, they flatline because your brain cannot be faster than a computer and Gibson catched that in almost every hacker event.
Gibson Cyberspace was mainly a better way of representing information than a plain textfile or our humble webbrowser (also a visual metaphor of information flow, his description of the Sprawl as a pulsating Nova of bytes and reducing scale to appreaciate the data structures).
In CP2013 and CP2020 Pondsmith came out with a combat system intended to be dynamic for the Netrun class, he had experience already since he designed Mekton RPG back in 1985 that was ANIME inspired so he knew how to make stylish combat.

Now, is where I think that is a matter of taste whether you like more CP2020 Netrun style and CPRED/2077 style. Pondsmith explains it in the interview, is what I tried to say before (I didn´t read that in advance, just experience of CP2020 master): the Netrun do his adventure while "meat" is just observing,then "meat" do their stuff while Netrun just observe --> not really funny in a cooperative RPG session.
He wrote his final campaign of CP2020 (Firestorm) leading to the datakrash in mind and used as the basis for Cyberpunk 3.0 (3rd edition) that was a setting in post-apocalyptic,post-cyberpunk,transhumanist world (with Netrun quite similar to RED). It was not well received by fans and went to the hiatus.
So when he had the opportunity for RED (I assume after being approached by CDPR) he had the chance to rewrite his story (Cyberpunk 3.0 is not a cannon for CP2077), but he kept the datakrash,no Net, physical hacker incursion Netrun type. So I can imagine there was not really that much demand for that dynamic in tabletop (as I tried to explain) because he had like 20 years of customer feedback + his own adventures.
I can imagine that CDPR and Pondsmith also had quite a lot discussions about Netrunning because RED was published last year also and he could have very easily put something like "after years of glorious battles and countless lives Netwatch agents finally cleaned up the old NET"-Shadowrun do something like that in their lore-, as an engineer I would have done old style Covid time quarantine: isolate sectors,cut electricity,clean and just start expanding the net by interconnection of cleaned sectors... I can only guess, that if they didn´t do something like that is exactly because its not that easy (+ CDPR would have needed a complete cyberspace on top of the own real space); the use of wirless (eyes) in CP2077 instead of wire was explained in some other thread in this forum also and I think it makes sense: gameplay wise, if you need to physical hack to a target to hack you are probably a stealth build so its faster to just kill the enemy without hacking so Netrun becomes superflous (it works well in RED,since its team based and different classes provide the different skills).

 

[CulannHS]

We could have had real Netrunning like this:

Instead we got this:

 

[Netrunner2go]

HOW WOULD YOU DESIGN A NIGHT CITY MMORPG?​

working.