I thought Caranthir was an Elf not a troll

[InkognitoXI]

Ok, perhaps cooldown 3. I don't know, but it seems more in line with the ability of Caranthir from the lore. I also didn't mention what the provisions for such a Caranthir would be, because I don't know.. But you get the general idea..
Besides, who said Wild Hunt Hounds have to be as they are today? Perhaps they could do 1 damage per turn somehow, alike to NG Crossbowmen and Dwarf Berserker, somehow, with some kind of condition (full health??)
[...]

For someone calling all of those binary, high impact Order units like Steffan, Damien etc troll cards and overpowered you are very quick to suggest a just as binary design, because the reality is that that is how units that can be answered and are high risk high reward will always work.

[...]
i think Imleriths current role is very bad (drone booster??). I think he should dual an enemy. 7p body like today, maybe still 12p. Not sure.
[...]

Imlerith role is that of a Commander (as he is a Commander in the Wild Hunt) and a Commander can direct his underlings and direct them to have them show their full potential (in terms of use on the battlefield), but there is always a limit to what one single (person ?) can do on the battlefield, so it is not a boost, but rather setting the power of a soldier to a certain benchmark.
Furthermore if you are already winning (dominance) he can also take himself and an enemy out of the battle (set the opponent to the same strenght, so both do not contribute to the momentary difference between both players), as he does with Vesemir during the Siege of Kaer Morhen.

The ability is lore-friendly, the issue is that Wild Hunt being in the Monster faction will necessarily lead to such interactions.
If you hate how the Wild Hunt can work together with insects etc the issue is not the design of individual cards, but rather the fact that those are all in the same faction.
(Also I did not consider him to be that strong in the game (although he was an actual opponent, unlike the disappointment that is Eredin), so focusing on his ability to command over dueling makes sense (though he would definitely also work with duel)).
An option would be to add another version (like other main characters) that does something else (e.g. have him grow stronger by playing a Wild Hunt deck, either with them on the board, in the hand or starting deck and have a deploy duel ability).

[...]
Anyhow, I think Wild Hunt could do with an overall rework and try to make them lore friendly and a powerful part of MO, together and on their own (as individual cards together with other MO cards)
[...]

Most agree that Wild Hunt should be a thing of their own, however (as I mentioned above) with so few members you cannot rework them into an archtype, the next expansion will propably include them as a faction.

[...]
Today Caranthir is a troll deck enabler and I think it's long overdue to turn him into a Wild Hunt Power card instead.

Define to me precisely what you mean by "troll".

 

[mazeebra]

Caranthir and Kiki are the ones that took me past 2500 on monsters, this Season. If played correctly and getting a long round 3, unless you face decks with igni (even yrden is beatable), this deck is unstopable on points smashing on the Board. Considering kiki monsters is a tier 3 deck, it is still one of my favorite decks to play with against the current meta.

Well, there you go. The deck is viable on pro-rank.

But I already knew that, I've seen pro-rank players using and winning on pro rank with various Caranthir troll decks.

Post automatically merged: Apr 15, 2020

For someone calling all of those binary, high impact Order units like Steffan, Damien etc troll cards and overpowered you are very quick to suggest a just as binary design, because the reality is that that is how units that can be answered and are high risk high reward will always work.

I consistently defended Damien especially, but also Skellen in those discussions where people kept complaining about these kind of decks and claimed those cards were the actual reason for the troll decks. I've constantly said on their own, those cards are all right, and the abilities are nothing to wine about. The problem was always gold replay/copy and the defect bribery (which they said they fixed to factor in bronze copies).

I never had issues with Damien and Stefan, but ALOT of people were legitimately complaining about those troll decks. Troll DECKS, yes, that's why I was arguing against alot of people, because they were not troll cards, but troll decks.

Imlerith role is that of a Commander (as he is a Commander in the Wild Hunt) and a Commander can direct his underlings and direct them to have them show their full potential (in terms of use on the battlefield), but there is always a limit to what one single (person ?) can do on the battlefield, so it is not a boost, but rather setting the power of a soldier to a certain benchmark.

So Imlerith is the commander of insects and a drone director and booster? Are you seriously defending the current version of Imlerith?

I've seen a few (money making) pro-players opinions about Imlerith and they found his new ability laughable (and weak), as do I.. I preferred the old ability of Imlerith actually which is now another card (cant remember name).

The ability is lore-friendly, the issue is that Wild Hunt being in the Monster faction will necessarily lead to such interactions.
If you hate how the Wild Hunt can work together with insects etc the issue is not the design of individual cards, but rather the fact that those are all in the same faction.

I don't think that's the actual issue. Say if he was a duel on deploy with 7 (or 6 or 5) body, that could also work with other decks than just Wild Hunt based ones. It would be an incredibly powerful damage card in practical terms.

Alot of people complain, so to say, about the lack of damage in MO. Perhaps if Wild Hunt was a bit more of an aggressive type of MO it could balance the faction out?

(Also I did not consider him to be that strong in the game (although he was an actual opponent, unlike the disappointment that is Eredin), so focusing on his ability to command over dueling makes sense (though he would definitely also work with duel)).
An option would be to add another version (like other main characters) that does something else (e.g. have him grow stronger by playing a Wild Hunt deck, either with them on the board, in the hand or starting deck and have a deploy duel ability).

Well, true enough. He did duel Geralt and lost.. But he was arrogant, and big and willing to fight big enemies. I think the duel on the ice was Caranthir actually? Not Imlerith.. But again, things don't have to be that lore friendly, but at least relavant. At least there is a basis for a Wild Hunt Dual based unit, and Imlerith could be that (instead of a drone booster)

 

[InkognitoXI]

[...]
I consistently defended Damien especially, but also Skellen in those discussions where people kept complaining about these kind of decks and claimed those cards were the actual reason for the troll decks. I've constantly said on their own, those cards are all right, and the abilities are nothing to wine about. The problem was always gold replay/copy and the defect bribery (which they said they fixed to factor in bronze copies).
[...]

Would you mind properly defining "troll decks" if you mind that sort of deck that much ?
I still have no idea what you are even intending to discredit those decks for.
Also I agree that Bribery needs reconsideration, its variance is far too wide.

[...]
Are you seriously defending the current version of Imlerith?
[...]

Of course I defending the current version, at the very least it is lore friendly.
It is not very interesting, however there is nothing wrong with it existing.

[...]
So Imlerith is the commander of insects and a drone director and booster?
[...]
I've seen a few (money making) pro-players opinions about Imlerith and they found his new ability laughable (and weak), as do I.. I preferred the old ability of Imlerith actually which is now another card (cant remember name).
[...]

The old ability is on Nithral.
Imlerith is a Commander, have an ability reflecting that is sensible.
Drones are units, so one should be able to interact with them as such.
Is it sensible to have the Wild Hunt in Monsters ?
Yes, if you want to keep the amount of factions low and adding another faction is always an incredible hassle.
Do they make sense to be in Monsters ... not really, the above is just the rsult of that, unless you specifically state that the Wild Hunt can not interact with them.
The interaction is laughable, but that is not the issue with Imlerith ability, it is a flaw with his faction.

[...]
I don't think that's the actual issue. Say if he was a duel on deploy with 7 (or 6 or 5) body, that could also work with other decks than just Wild Hunt based ones. It would be an incredibly powerful damage card in practical terms.

Alot of people complain, so to say, about the lack of damage in MO. Perhaps if Wild Hunt was a bit more of an aggressive type of MO it could balance the faction out?
[....]

Maybe them having a control theme would make up for that and fix the flaws with Monsters ... something the summer expansion could introduce.

[...]
Well, true enough. He did duel Geralt and lost.. But he was arrogant, and big and willing to fight big enemies.
[...]

I never said he could not have that ability, what I said was that another design being sensible is no reason to delete a perfectly legit card in the cardpool, when you could just add another card.

[...]
I think the duel on the ice was Caranthir actually? Not Imlerith.. But again, things don't have to be that lore friendly, but at least relavant. At least there is a basis for a Wild Hunt Dual based unit, and Imlerith could be that (instead of a drone booster)

It is Caranthir who fights Ciri and Geralt on the ice.
Things are preferably lore-friendly, however there is no reason a duel effect could only be on an unit that actually dueled (which Caranthir and Imlerith both did, so there is no reason to argue about that here anyways).
Again Imlerith is a drone booster because those are the best targets, if you do not plan on using those it is not worth it.
Imlerith is a drone booster because of his faction, not his ability.
If one would want the current Imlerith to do somethign besides being a drone booster his dominance ability should be changed to be worth using on a consistent basis.
Currently the dominance ability is worth being used once in every 20 full moons.
Maybe his dominance ability should be to duel an enemy (which would honestly not even be unbalanced, given his insane provisions).

 

[mazeebra]

Would you mind properly defining "troll decks" if you mind that sort of deck that much ?

Same as shenanigan decks or decks with alot of shenanigans.

shenanigans

1. secret or dishonest activities, usually of a complicated type: 2. silly…

dictionary.cambridge.org

"A deceitful confidence trick, or mischief causing discomfort or annoyance",
"questionable practice"
"dishonest activities"

I guess what I mean, is that it feels wrong, feeling like someone is exploiting meta flaws, glitching or cheating. Generally causing frustration and annoyance instead of admiration.

NG "elder bears" was the same kind of stuff, but probably more widely hated.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Same as shenanigan decks or decks with alot of shenanigans.

shenanigans

1. secret or dishonest activities, usually of a complicated type: 2. silly…

dictionary.cambridge.org

"A deceitful confidence trick, or mischief causing discomfort or annoyance",
"questionable practice"
"dishonest activities"

[...]

A definition is not the same as a bunch of examples.
Also I just take it shenaningans and troll are synonyms for you.

[...]
I guess what I mean, is that it feels wrong, feeling like someone is exploiting meta flaws, glitching or cheating.
[...]

Caranthir is not a meta flaw though, neither is he a glitch, nor is he a cheat.

[...]
Generally causing frustration and annoyance instead of admiration.
[...]

But by that standard I could argue that if I lose a game and my opponent finishes the game, which they would win with any card in the game, with a Wolf Pack,that Wolf Pack should be changed, as it would annoy and frustrate me that I would lose against a card that serves no purpose in the game and rightfully has no place in any deck.
In that case Wolf Pack would be a troll card and by the same logic it would have to get changed.

What I assume you might mean is that there is nothing else in the game that would play for that specific line and that interrupting it under the current conditions, which have been created by the opponent, is quite difficult and only a handful of decks could do it.

The thing is that that is also called having a strategy and something different from "pointslam" other people complain about.

If you however also refer to the fact that playing around that becomes increasingly difficult and in certain matchups you cannot win without major luck you have to realize that the rock-paper-scissor nature of these games is necessitated by the fact that people want everything to have a chance in the large picture, but do not want a symmetric game.
IF you want a symmetric game you cannot play a game that gives both players different resources.

I agree that the above becomes problematic when these decks:
a.) have all or almost all of their games decided by the matchup
b.) have all or almost all of their games decided by the coinflip

That being said I do not see Caranthir as a problem card in that regard.
Caranthir enables certain strategies (e.g. Kikimore), of which none prevents you from outplaying them.
If you go into a long round against an unfavourable matchup (e.g. NR against non-engine, non-control decks) you lose, that is normal.
If you struggle against Kikimore, just bleed them, even if you go down a card, at some point they have to blow Caranthir into Kiki or they do it to late and lose even with it.
Furthermore if you really struggle against these types of decks run Yrden, Yrden is an instant win button against something like Kikimore.

I also understand that this is not necessarily about winning, however I do not agree that Caranthir and the strategies involving him are problematic in that regard.
Caranthir is not Lockdown, Caranthir is not by construction unfun to play against, even if you smash them each time.

 

[mazeebra]

Caranthir is not a meta flaw though, neither is he a glitch, nor is he a cheat.

I didn't say it is a glitch or a cheat, but it feels like it is.

It most definetely is a meta flaw. 3 gold card copies (or possibly 4??), how it that not a meta flaw?

 

[InkognitoXI]

I didn't say it is a glitch or a cheat, but it feels like it is.

It most definetely is a meta flaw. 3 gold card copies (or possibly 4??), how it that not a meta flaw?

It was always designed to be that way.
Kikimore Queen, just to name an example, would be unplayable without Caranthir and you should know that.
Kikimore Queen was also designed with Caranthir in mind.
Also the Gold copy you create neither gets its deploy ability, nor its base strength, so the number of worthwhile targets already goes down to engines or graveyard cards.

 

[mazeebra]

90% of decks with Caranthir don't feel right, it feels like pure shenanigans, alike to what those worst NG "elder bear" decks did. Those cards were also designed like that. Doesn't mean the devs did not "fail to calculate" how gold copies influence the game and the opponents.

Same with the no-unit decks they put an end to about a year ago. It was not meta or tier 1 or 2 or whatever, it was just wrong. Caranthir is also just wrong, elder bears might or might not still be just wrong, but at least they removed/nerfed the worst shenanigans decks based on those cards.

I recon there will be some further adjustments to that situation in the future, especially considering how annoying it feels for alot of people to play against enslave 6 and all those special cards. It's just not right, it makes people feel bad, even when they win, and that's not good.

Those are basically the "gold replay/copy" decks, Nilfgaard and Caranthir. I see absolutely no reason why Caranthir should stay ridiculous as he is. There might be fewer complaints about it, but as more and more MO troll decks use these dreadfully annoying tactics, I'm pretty sure the choir will grow.

But, knowing MO is played by alot of people, and they also might use those tactics themselves, it might not grow as loud as the anti-NG crowd.

 

[vyper1]

90% of decks with Caranthir don't feel right, it feels like pure shenanigans...

That's your opinion.

It's not OP, it's balancing from the other decks that can draw, play and replay cards multiple times.

It doesn't stop anyone from playing their deck unlike NG which can stop you and play from your own deck.

That's the difference.

It seems you won't stop.

So to sum up my opinion. I don't think you're right. It is not op and helps keep MO competitive to the others spamming cards.

You don't like it well tough. The entire Gwent game would need to be redesigned if you don't like this card because (again) the other factions spam cards.

The only thing that needs to happen is NG need to have limits on the control plus give them other options to engage in battle with the opponent.

End of.

 

[mazeebra]

You don't like it well tough. The entire Gwent game would need to be redesigned if you don't like this card because (again) the other factions spam cards.

Well, if MO rely on a gold copy card as their only play, there is something wrong with the faction. If there is, then the devs should consider what can be done about it.

Personally I think a redesign of Wild Hunt cards could be that. A more aggressive version which have synergies with themselves, but also works well within other MO decks. Some people say MO lack damage, ok, so perhaps a Wild Hunt redesign can solve that and help MO not depend on a single 8p gold card which copies 14p or 11p or 10p gold cards.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Well, if MO rely on a gold copy card as their only play, there is something wrong with the faction. If there is, then the devs should consider what can be done about it.

[...] and help MO not depend on a single 8p gold card which copies 14p or 11p or 10p gold cards.

That is not exactly a fair way to put things.
The targets are actually
1.) Phoenix (14P): Noone cares about that interaction
2.) Living Armor (12P): An overpriced beatstick, which is not even used as a target anymore
3.) Runewright (7P) + Dulla Kh'amanni (7P): As tolerable backup targets ... maybe
4.) Plaguemaiden(12P): Which loses 6 power, so Caranthir plays as an 8P version with 3 less value of her ... hardly an issue
5.) Ruehin (11P): Ruehin is hardly used at all, so I hardly see the issue
6.) Detlaff: Higher Vampire (10P): Plays an 8P version of him with 1 less Power overall ...
7.) Miruna (9P): Plays an 8P version of her

Those are the noteworthy targets and in case of Plaguemaiden and Detlaff you end up at a 1 point/provision more efficient play then them themselves.
Ruehin is terrible, even with Caranthir etc.

Ultimately you get 1 point/provision more effectivety for playing a card that is completely reliant on getting the full package.
So copying an 14p or 11p card is quite missleading, when Caranthir still only plays for a 9P card and with the opportunity cost 8P is only fair.

By the logic of re-using a card being problematic you have to also hate Mystic Echo, Sigdrifa, Lippy, Ozzrel, Assire, Pavetta, Ghoul, Renew, Freya and Necromancy.

 

[mazeebra]

By the logic of re-using a card being problematic you have to also hate Mystic Echo, Sigdrifa, Lippy, Ozzrel, Assire, Pavetta, Ghoul, Renew, Freya and Necromancy.

Well, there is a case to say there is alot of Lippy abuse currently ongoing. With Cerys coming in addition to that, I'm not a big fan of the situation. Gold replay that way can also be calculated and abused. I don't know everything about it.

Ozzrel is problematic at the moment, or rather Yghern/Ozzrel is an auto-include combo, which is pretty bad. It's pretty bad that Yghern made all the other tall units irrelevant.

Furthermore it is bad that Xavier Lemmens was nerfed and now cannot really do something about the graveyard situation against MO and SK decks. If he banish 5, it would be less of an issue.

Pavetta is bronze interaction, the issue is Blue Stripe Scouts.

Assire with Scenario is an issue for sure. Don't know the solution, but I want Assire to stay as is, but I don't want double scenario.

Necromancy, Freya, Ghoul etc is bronze cards interaction. SK OP bronze cards like Greatswords and Priest is an issue yes, Freya makes this worse of an issue.

Never had an issue with renew, and I'm quite puzzled why they changed it. Any renewable card has less provisions than renew itself. But sure, maybe, it could be an issue, but not that I know about.

Sigdrifa is an issue yes. Now they changed renew, SK is the only faction that can reuse powerful gold cards. And at such a low provision. It's mostly used with Urisine abuse decks I guess to renew champion of svalblod which should really have a doom tag on it after transformation.

Mystic Echo was nerfed, beause it was typically a double rag-nar-rok deck, which was shenanigans. I don't know if double waters of brokilon is really defect. I don't know enough about those types of decks to say if it is or not. But I do look forward to non-dryad units loosing their harmony, which is an actual issue.

Multiple gold copies/replays is an issue yes. But I don't think it was an issue with renew. It was more of an issue with NG "elder bears" and caranthir. Multiple copies/plays of gold cards is an exponential calculation unlike anything else in the game.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Well, there is a case to say there is alot of Lippy abuse currently ongoing. With Cerys coming in addition to that, I'm not a big fan of the situation. Gold replay that way can also be calculated and abused. I don't know everything about it.

Ozzrel is problematic at the moment, or rather Yghern/Ozzrel is an auto-include combo, which is pretty bad. It's pretty bad that Yghern made all the other tall units irrelevant.

Furthermore it is bad that Xavier Lemmens was nerfed and now cannot really do something about the graveyard situation against MO and SK decks. If he banish 5, it would be less of an issue.

Pavetta is bronze interaction, the issue is Blue Stripe Scouts.

Assire with Scenario is an issue for sure. Don't know the solution, but I want Assire to stay as is, but I don't want double scenario.

Necromancy, Freya, Ghoul etc is bronze cards interaction. SK OP bronze cards like Greatswords and Priest is an issue yes, Freya makes this worse of an issue.

Never had an issue with renew, and I'm quite puzzled why they changed it. Any renewable card has less provisions than renew itself. But sure, maybe, it could be an issue, but not that I know about.

Sigdrifa is an issue yes. Now they changed renew, SK is the only faction that can reuse powerful gold cards. And at such a low provision. It's mostly used with Urisine abuse decks I guess to renew champion of svalblod which should really have a doom tag on it after transformation.

Mystic Echo was nerfed, beause it was typically a double rag-nar-rok deck, which was shenanigans. I don't know if double waters of brokilon is really defect. I don't know enough about those types of decks to say if it is or not. But I do look forward to non-dryad units loosing their harmony, which is an actual issue.

Multiple gold copies/replays is an issue yes. But I don't think it was an issue with renew. It was more of an issue with NG "elder bears" and caranthir. Multiple copies/plays of gold cards is an exponential calculation unlike anything else in the game.

... I was actually being sarcastic ... I am genuinely amazed that you consider almost all of them and/or their uses problematic.
I guess we can only agree on disagreeing.

 

[mazeebra]

... I was actually being sarcastic ... I am genuinely amazed that you consider almost all of them and/or their uses problematic.
I guess we can only agree on disagreeing.

So, you think it's perfectly fine for the game that you can play scenario twice with Nilfgaard?

 

[InkognitoXI]

So, you think it's perfectly fine for the game that you can play scenario twice with Nilfgaard?

I do not see an issue with Ozzrel, Yghern, Lippy, Paveta, Necromancy, Freya, Ghoul, Renew, Sigdrifa and so on.
In the case of Assire I do agree that it should not be able to return a Scenario, especially considering that they reworked Caretaker for doing such things, so keeping Masquerade Ball as a target for Assire is inconsistent with the previous decision.
However if Assire would be restricted to Special cards (e.g. Shupe) and units (e.g. Roach) it would be perfectly fine.

 

[mazeebra]

I do not see an issue with Ozzrel, Yghern, Lippy, Paveta, Necromancy, Freya, Ghoul, Renew, Sigdrifa and so on.
In the case of Assire I do agree that it should not be able to return a Scenario, especially considering that they reworked Caretaker for doing such things, so keeping Masquerade Ball as a target for Assire is inconsistent with the previous decision.
However if Assire would be restricted to Special cards (e.g. Shupe) and units (e.g. Roach) it would be perfectly fine.

Well, I also don't have an issue with Pavetta, Necromancy, Freya, Ghoul, Renew.