I thought Caranthir was an Elf not a troll

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Seeing how Caranthir is the enabler of all or most monster troll decks, shenanigangs and "unfair" ways of playing this game, alike to the NG "elder bears", it begs the question why the devs decided Caranthir is a troll and not a sage/elf. I fail to understand how the developers can allow such a card in the game, and I don't think they have taken into account all the possible consequences of having such a card in the game. "failed to calculate".

The list is not even short of those decks where seeing it begs the question "should that even be possible?". When you see 3 powerful copies of the same gold card on the board at the same time. It allows for some very overpowered plays and decks that just feels frustrating to play against and not possible to counter. A few examples:
- Triple Ruehin deck and/or Regis: Higher Vampire
- Triple Kikimore Queen
- Plague Maiden Yen
etc etc etc, there are many more!

I happen to think that gold replay/copies is one of the biggest issues in this game, and it was made fairly clear with the NG "elder bear" troll decks, shenanigans and "unfair" ways of playing the games. People hate those decks. And it's very clear with Caranthir as well. He is a troll, it's that simple.

I think dropping this copy gold ability would be good for the game, and perhaps make Caranthir into something more Wild Hunt related instead. The wild hunt is pretty bad in Gwent, and they could do with a proper synergy type in monsters. He is not suppose to be a troll!
 
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It allows for some very overpowered plays and decks that just feels frustrating to play against and not possible to counter. [...]
How are they overpowered and uncounterable if you can always bleed them and none of them exceed Tier 3 ?

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- Triple Ruehin deck and/or Regis: Higher Vampire
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Not even Tier 3 on the first one and an ok target on the second.

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- Triple Kikimore Queen
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One of the only ways Monsters can play for a long round and given how unusable Death's Shadow is outside of that combo very easily predictable.
Again, this is Tier 3 at best.

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- Plague Maiden Yen
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It is an ok combination, but again everything but overpowered and without immediate consumption far from uncounterable.


To be honest I do not see the point in this thread.
You just rag on one of the better cards in one of the weaker factions in the game and in case Caranthir would truly be overpowered we would see according results, but I am rarely facing MO and even if I do some just cut Caranthir.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Caranthir is my absolute favourite monster card, and has been for most of HC Gwent, so i feel the need to be his advocate, but i'll try to keep my personal taste away, to keep it unbiased.

Yes, Caranthir is one of the best MO cards, and there are and were several decks around him. This means he's an incredibly versatile card and one of the most interesting there are.

Some may say he's underprovisioned. Possibly, but that's why he's used with cards that cost more than the points they give, to balance things out (2 examples are Phoenix and Living Armor, 2 cards the OP didnt mention)

Of the examples provided, some arent very accurate. For example a triple Ruehin is not good unless you expect one of them to be seized, banished or locked, otherwise 2 is better because you wont have enough consumes to capitalize on 3 Ruehins.

Also, a triple Plague Maiden is completely unviable, but yes, 2 of them can be amazing, and that is possible with Caranthir. But that quick swarm strategy + Yen is not new, i've seen it with Arachas decks way before MoO and Plague Maiden.

Finally, i have to add Caranthir works well with Succubus and Manticore, so he's also great support for Deathwish decks. And he can create several Beasts, which are also very scary engines without removal to deal with them.

Finally, its true that he doesnt fit very well with Wild Hunt, but it wouldnt make sense to convert another interesting card into a boring, reliable one, like they did to so many in the past year. Honestly i havent seen anyone complain regularly about Caranthir except the OP.
 
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Finally, its true that he doesnt fit very well with Wild Hunt, but it wouldnt make sense to convert another interesting card into a boring, reliable one, like they did to so many in the past year.
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Caranthir makes sense though.
Based on the appearance of the Wild Hunt in The Witcher 3 he actually fits very well into the Wild Hunt, given that the entire Wild Hunt is a bunch off weak bullies overrelying on Caranthir and his ability to open Portals to use the Wild Frost, so him grabbing something from a parallel world (or something like that) with a Portal (which can be stressful and thus weaken the summoned target to 1 strenght) makes a lot of sense.
He should also have such a strong potential ability (and maximum potential on the grabbing) to reflect that according to Avallach he is a "golden child" that turned into a criminal (and him working on any MO unit perfectly reflects the broadness of his giftedness).
Given the above it also makes sense for the Wild Hunt to support him doing his thing, rather than the other way around.
Of course they could add an additional form (like Zoltan: Warrior fits with the Zoltan series) that is a twist on him and specifically supports the Wild Hunt archtype (which I would highly advocate for), however all in all his ability is completely flavorful (and given that he uses Portals to summon Golems during his fight against Geralt him using Portals to grab units makes a lot of sense).
 
I think you have to realize that the state of the game at present the sad state of affairs is Caranthir is required for Monsters to even be competitive. Outside of the combos mentioned for Caranthir here what do Monsters have as a faction that remotely can keep pace with the engine heavy combos most of the other factions bring? You can make the argument Monsters has Thrive but what is that in the face of most NR engine decks or even the new Syndicate Hoard leader that basically gives Syndicate decks the engine potential to compete with NR? I mean even Harmony is to the point where unless we plan on making Monsters all big power cards like Yghern, Griffins etc they just have no way of competing. You have to look at the landscape and see that the combos you mentioned are the only way Monsters are staying remotely competitive. The only faction that is quasi like them is Skellige and how many decks of theirs are you seeing now other than Cerys decks? And even then how unfair is that really, it's only 15 points in one play, that's just two less than Yghern. I think Caranthir is fine in the face of everything else that's out right now.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Caranthir makes sense though.
Based on the appearance of the Wild Hunt in The Witcher 3 he actually fits very well into the Wild Hunt, given that the entire Wild Hunt is a bunch off weak bullies overrelying on Caranthir and his ability to open Portals to use the Wild Frost, so him grabbing something from a parallel world (or something like that) with a Portal (which can be stressful and thus weaken the summoned target to 1 strenght) makes a lot of sense.
He should also have such a strong potential ability (and maximum potential on the grabbing) to reflect that according to Avallach he is a "golden child" that turned into a criminal (and him working on any MO unit perfectly reflects the broadness of his giftedness).
Given the above it also makes sense for the Wild Hunt to support him doing his thing, rather than the other way around.
Of course they could add an additional form (like Zoltan: Warrior fits with the Zoltan series) that is a twist on him and specifically supports the Wild Hunt archtype (which I would highly advocate for), however all in all his ability is completely flavorful (and given that he uses Portals to summon Golems during his fight against Geralt him using Portals to grab units makes a lot of sense).

That makes some sense, just wanted to point that he works with ANY unit, not just Monsters (hence why i mentioned Living Armor and Phoenix which are Neutral).

Some may say he should get the treatment lots of other faction cards get and only be able to target units of his own faction, however, it seems he's way more problematic when played with Kikkimore Queen or Plague Maiden than with Neutral ones, so that wouldnt be much of a nerf, more like an unnecessary change...
 
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Some may say he should get the treatment lots of other faction cards get and only be able to target units of his own faction, however, it seems he's way more problematic when played with Kikkimore Queen or Plague Maiden than with Neutral ones, so that wouldnt be much of a nerf, more like an unnecessary change...
My bad, I forgot that interaction and tend to sometimes lose track of cards that got faction restrictions, when half of those only removed the worst targets.
That being said I agree that the neutral targets are the least "problematic" ones (cough cough like Mystic Echo cough) and such a change to limit him to his faction would leave all of the strongest targets.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Caranthir is my absolute favourite monster card, and has been for most of HC Gwent, so i feel the need to be his advocate, but i'll try to keep my personal taste away, to keep it unbiased.

Yes, Caranthir is one of the best MO cards, and there are and were several decks around him. This means he's an incredibly versatile card and one of the most interesting there are.

Some may say he's underprovisioned. Possibly, but that's why he's used with cards that cost more than the points they give, to balance things out (2 examples are Phoenix and Living Armor, 2 cards the OP didnt mention)

Of the examples provided, some arent very accurate. For example a triple Ruehin is not good unless you expect one of them to be seized, banished or locked, otherwise 2 is better because you wont have enough consumes to capitalize on 3 Ruehins.

Also, a triple Plague Maiden is completely unviable, but yes, 2 of them can be amazing, and that is possible with Caranthir. But that quick swarm strategy + Yen is not new, i've seen it with Arachas decks way before MoO and Plague Maiden.

Finally, i have to add Caranthir works well with Succubus and Manticore, so he's also great support for Deathwish decks. And he can create several Beasts, which are also very scary engines without removal to deal with them.

Finally, its true that he doesnt fit very well with Wild Hunt, but it wouldnt make sense to convert another interesting card into a boring, reliable one, like they did to so many in the past year. Honestly i havent seen anyone complain regularly about Caranthir except the OP.
The only problem I see with Caranthir is, because of him neutral cards need to be over provisioned who then become utterly useless and unaffordable to any other faction/deck. Devs should always consider him when pricing. One example is Phoenix. It is 13P for 4 Strength making him utterly useless for any other deck than Caranthir. Phoenix doesn't even give card advantage (like you can dry pass in R2.. since it needs to be clicked and play a turn). Will anyone add Phoenix in a deck other than Caranthir? NO. There may be other neutral cards in the future which will again need to be priced more making it useless for other faction just because of the presence of Caranthir.

I have no problem in his ability, but he should be limited to only MO cards.
 
Another day, another complain thread. And this time it's MO, well i can't just pass this without complaining a bit :p
Yghern! Larva! Adrenaline! Why aren't they nerfed yet??? All 3 of them are just overstated pointslam nonsense!!! No skill, no strategy, just pointslam!
And Caranthir is fine, i gues :)
 
How are they overpowered and uncounterable if you can always bleed them and none of them exceed Tier 3 ?


Not even Tier 3 on the first one and an ok target on the second.


One of the only ways Monsters can play for a long round and given how unusable Death's Shadow is outside of that combo very easily predictable.
Again, this is Tier 3 at best.


It is an ok combination, but again everything but overpowered and without immediate consumption far from uncounterable.


To be honest I do not see the point in this thread.
You just rag on one of the better cards in one of the weaker factions in the game and in case Caranthir would truly be overpowered we would see according results, but I am rarely facing MO and even if I do some just cut Caranthir.

Perhaps overpowered is the wrong expression, short of saying idiotic decks that just feels wrong.

Tier 3 perhaps, but that just because tier 1 and 2 is due to other defect cards, comboes and leaders. So congrats.
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Finally, its true that he doesnt fit very well with Wild Hunt, but it wouldnt make sense to convert another interesting card into a boring, reliable one, like they did to so many in the past year. Honestly i havent seen anyone complain regularly about Caranthir except the OP.

Imlerith is an idiotic card, really. My thought is that they need to look into the whole Wild Hunt and remake it into something cool and interesting, including Caranthir (which is a way better/more diverse card than 12p Imlerith).
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That makes some sense, just wanted to point that he works with ANY unit, not just Monsters (hence why i mentioned Living Armor and Phoenix which are Neutral).

Some may say he should get the treatment lots of other faction cards get and only be able to target units of his own faction, however, it seems he's way more problematic when played with Kikkimore Queen or Plague Maiden than with Neutral ones, so that wouldnt be much of a nerf, more like an unnecessary change...

Well, it's not so much what he copies as what he does. He enables multiple gold cards just like the NG "elder bear" decks, which have been considered very problematic and are/were much hated.

It's the troll factor of the deck, more than any OP plays they enable. Gold replay/copy is something I don't think the developers really calculated well, and should be an exception under strict surveillance rather than the "norm". If monsters are weak without Caranthir, then perhaps it is time to do something about them. Establishing a proper wild hunt "type" could be that something..

PS. Phoenix deck is a troll deck as well.
 
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Lol I think mazeebra is the troll.

It's not overpowered.

The wild Hunt meta isnt great in MO, it's hardly because of caranthir. Neither is the vampire meta. It's just one of those cards it's great to get to make your deck stronger for MO.

He adds something to MO to be competitive to the top.

You can do the same thing without him. But he adds a one extra layer on top of it.

Death shadow benefits the most out of it to make the top layer work

The new leader ability would replace it without him.

Tbh he's needed for the ultra lock control NG decks. You need multiple copies to counter the multiple locks. He's the balance for MO against the others
 
[...] One example is Phoenix. It is 13P for 4 Strength making him utterly useless for any other deck than Caranthir. Phoenix doesn't even give card advantage (like you can dry pass in R2.. since it needs to be clicked and play a turn). Will anyone add Phoenix in a deck other than Caranthir? NO. There may be other neutral cards in the future which will again need to be priced more making it useless for other faction just because of the presence of Caranthir.
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But Phoenix has its price because it was vastly overplayed in the first stages of homecoming and I think it later got 1 provision back, which is not nearly enough to make up for the general powercreep.
Phoenix to me is the equivalent to some cards rotting on a banlist in other cardgames, which are are just there to avoid potential issues that could arise would it be playable again.
Also it is that overpriced because it is Neutral carryover, something that has proven to be potentially problematic.
Phoenix state has nothing to do with Caranthir (in fact in the early homecoming people would also copy it with Whispering Hillock, which was later reworked (into a meh card) and Phoenix got nothing, despite losing a card that could enable another copy).

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Yghern! Larva! Adrenaline! Why aren't they nerfed yet??? All 3 of them are just overstated pointslam nonsense!!! No skill, no strategy, just pointslam!
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All factions have overtuned cards (Larva) and some can use some neutrals better than others.
Also with the rise of better and better engines Yghern has less and less priority to be played early, unless you want to lose out on multiple points and a 13 for 10 that dies to 5 points of removal or something like that is comparable to Skjall and noone complains about Skjall.
Everyone can use adrenaline, MO have synergy with it, just like NG has synergy with cards like Royal Decree.
Also those are not nerfed because there is no need to nerf Tier 2 (or in this case Tier 3) decks.
You want to balance the overwhelming decks, not the bottom of the Tier list.


Perhaps overpowered is the wrong expression, short of saying idiotic decks that just feels wrong.

Tier 3 perhaps, but that just because tier 1 and 2 is due to other defect cards, comboes and leaders. So congrats.
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At this point you just say that anything even remotely playable should be nerfed to be on par with cards like Wolf Pack.
I am sorry, however saying that anything that is Tier 3 or above should be hit is just not something I can take seriously.
What you are basically saying is that the entire cardpool should be reworked.
I honestly have enough of that and they even stated they would rather buff weak, underplayed cards than nerf, if possible.

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My thought is that they need to look into the whole Wild Hunt and remake it into something cool and interesting, including Caranthir (which is a way better/more diverse card than 12p Imlerith).
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Again, if you want to add something new add more cards and rework unusable garbage, not cards that have their fair place in their faction and are very lore friendly (something a good portion of cards lack, which is a thing that other people also complain about).
Beyond that Slama or Burza, I really cannot remember who, stated that a Wild Hunt archtype is on their mind, however with as few members as they have they just do not have enough cards to turn them into a proper archtype, one would need more cards in an expansion (hint, hint).
 
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Lol I think mazeebra is the troll.

It's not overpowered.

The wild Hunt meta isnt great in MO, it's hardly because of caranthir. Neither is the vampire meta. It's just one of those cards it's great to get to make your deck stronger for MO.

He adds something to MO to be competitive to the top.

You can do the same thing without him. But he adds a one extra layer on top of it.

Death shadow benefits the most out of it to make the top layer work

The new leader ability would replace it without him.

Tbh he's needed for the ultra lock control NG decks. You need multiple copies to counter the multiple locks. He's the balance for MO against the others

Nah, Caratnthir just enables troll decks, he doesn't make monsters strong. Other people said it, it's not tier 1 or 2, so in actuality if that is true, he just enables trolling decks and annoyances, alike to NG "elder bears".

Leader ability is fair enough, it's a leader ability, not an 8p provision card used to copy way more valuable gold cards. Because everyone loved seeing 3 copies of Damien on the board, right??

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comparable to Skjall and noone complains about Skjall.

Actually, alot of people complained about Skjall after he changed. Less so now for sure..
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I don't only speak from my own experience, but watching streamers who play these ridiculous decks.

From my own experience, I know whenever I see Caranthir "next comes one of the most ridiculous moves of the whole game".

NG "elder bears" got nerfed, bribery was fixed and the worst troll decks got shut down. I think it's time to do the same for Caranthir, shut down the troll.
 
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From my own experience, I know whenever I see Caranthir "next comes one of the most ridiculous moves of the whole game".
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You cannot be serious about that, I find it very hard to believe you could be serious about that.
In the case of decks like Kikimore they were very much aware of that interaction when they designed Kikimore Queen and Caranthir is the reason that the whole kind of deck can even function and any decent player can already see Kikimore Queen coming when seeing Death's Shadow as a leader ability.
Furthermore I really do not see what you mean by "most ridiculous moves of the whole game", you do realize that you can get something like a 19 point Cerys after having used Lippy, 30+ point swing with Gedyneith+Second Wind, Draug, Roche: Merciless into 6 Blue Stripes Commandos and so on.
There are a lot of (somewhat) fragile decks with overglorified finishers.
Also how is Echo into double Waters of Brokilon less of an insane engine preparation (I am by no means saying that should be nerfed, just that it is a strenght of that deck).
 
You cannot be serious about that, I find it very hard to believe you could be serious about that.
In the case of decks like Kikimore they were very much aware of that interaction when they designed Kikimore Queen and Caranthir is the reason that the whole kind of deck can even function and any decent player can already see Kikimore Queen coming when seeing Death's Shadow as a leader ability.
Furthermore I really do not see what you mean by "most ridiculous moves of the whole game", you do realize that you can get something like a 19 point Cerys after having used Lippy, 30+ point swing with Gedyneith+Second Wind, Draug, Roche: Merciless into 6 Blue Stripes Commandos and so on.
There are a lot of fragile decks with overglorified finishers.

Well, I've already made a thread about Blue Stripes long ago, long before it was popular, because it's also ridiculous.

Cerys Lippy is also ridiculous yes.. Give her doom tag!

And revert Xavier Lemmens as I also made a thread about. 3 graveyard banish is not enough these days. 5 would be.
 
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Cerys Lippy is also ridiculous yes.. Give her doom tag!
Why though ?
Lippy is not dominating the meta by any means and Cerys at the very least adds another incentive to use Lippy.
Why do you seem to think that every even remotely decent play has to get nerfed ?
 
Why though ?
Lippy is not dominating the meta by any means and Cerys at the very least adds another incentive to use Lippy.
Why do you seem to think that every even remotely decent play has to get nerfed ?

Because it is ridiculous, not because it dominates the meta. There are actual players in this game that doesn't just play copies of "meta decks".

Meta decks are per defintion defect and outside of the balance of the game, so naturally they should see the nerf hammer way more often than other cards/decks/leaders.

But someone else said it, it is actually more important to change "annoying/unfair" things in the game (troll decks, troll cards etc) than to change meta decks. I agree with that. Most players don't want to play an annoying game.

In the case of the defender/damien/skellen/bribery troll decks, they actually did just that, listened to all the players who can't stand the game because of such annoying moves. Not because it was "tier1", but because so many people found it annoying, it was overwhelmingly evident.

Ps. I was not one of the people who complained about it, I even defended those cards (not defect bribery though), but I did find that some of those decktypes were annoying troll decks.
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I can actually see a situation where Caranthir can keep his ability in a way, but be relevant to a Wild Hunt theme.

Caranthir Wild Hunt type:
Shield, 6body, cooldown 3 (edited), spawn a copy of a Wild Hunt Bronze card from your hand or the board to a random row. Reduce cooldown by 1 whenever you play a Wild Hunt card. 12p???
 
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I can actually see a situation where Caranthir can keep his ability in a way, but be relevant to a Wild Hunt theme.

Caranthir Wild Hunt type:
Shield, 6body, cooldown 2, spawn a copy of a Wild Hunt Bronze card from your hand or the board to a random row. Reduce cooldown by 1 whenever you play a Wild Hunt card.
To be honest, I think your ability is incredibly overpowered.
Being able to spawn a Wild Hunt Hound every turn and having to remove a 6 point body with a Shield immediately is too much.
Also again, there is no reason to overwrite his ability.

I actually like the basic concept of your idea for an alternative form (like Zoltan: Warrior or Zoltan: Scoundrel), what about the idea below ?

Caranthir: Navigator
9(?) Provisions
Wild Hunt, Mage
1 Strenght Shield
Deploy: Create and play 2 different bronze Wild Hunt units from your starting deck.
 
To be honest, I think your ability is incredibly overpowered.
Being able to spawn a Wild Hunt Hound every turn and having to remove a 6 point body with a Shield immediately is too much.
Also again, there is no reason to overwrite his ability.

I actually like the basic concept of your idea for an alternative form (like Zoltan: Warrior or Zoltan: Scoundrel), what about the idea below ?

Caranthir: Navigator
9(?) Provisions
Wild Hunt, Mage
1 Strenght Shield
Deploy: Create and play 2 different bronze Wild Hunt units from your starting deck.

Ok, perhaps cooldown 3. I don't know, but it seems more in line with the ability of Caranthir from the lore. I also didn't mention what the provisions for such a Caranthir would be, because I don't know.. But you get the general idea..
Besides, who said Wild Hunt Hounds have to be as they are today? Perhaps they could do 1 damage per turn somehow, alike to NG Crossbowmen and Dwarf Berserker, somehow, with some kind of condition (full health??)

The whole point of the shield and the 6p body was so that he could not be removed in 1 turn. But say perhaps, in such a case, perhaps he would be a 12p card like Imlerith. You said he created portals, and it fits with a kind of swarm (if not stopped) of wild hunt hounds that does damage somehow. But could be any bronze wild hunt units.

i think Imleriths current role is very bad (drone booster??). I think he should dual an enemy. 7p body like today, maybe still 12p. Not sure.

Anyhow, I think Wild Hunt could do with an overall rework and try to make them lore friendly and a powerful part of MO, together and on their own (as individual cards together with other MO cards)

Today Caranthir is a troll deck enabler and I think it's long overdue to turn him into a Wild Hunt Power card instead.
 
Caranthir and Kiki are the ones that took me past 2500 on monsters, this Season. If played correctly and getting a long round 3, unless you face decks with igni (even yrden is beatable), this deck is unstopable on points smashing on the Board. Considering kiki monsters is a tier 3 deck, it is still one of my favorite decks to play with against the current meta.
 
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