I was hoping the DLC story wasn't with Silverhand

[koalahugs]

You made points that don't actually contend with anything I said. Again, the player, get to choose Johnny's ultimate fate. The fact that V is dying is relevant only as a tool to generate a sense of urgency. It's actually one of my primary gripes with the game, in so much as that urgency is only felt after certain missions with certain triggers, but that is a product of the open world game design more than a problem with the story itself. See, Johnny is already dead and even if he's not, even if that is the real Johnny in V's head, he's also dying just as soon as you get him out of you and 'Alt' absorbs him.

Now don't get me wrong, V is a primary protagonist in this story, and I can accept that the story is about BOTH V and Silverhand, but in the context of the experience I've had with Cyberpunk, which includes all the tabletop games from the 90s as well, I'm seeing it as Silverhand's final coup de grace. Remember, V is forced to take on Silverhand as much as Silverhand is forced into V, and whilst we, the player, don't really see the full narrative potential of that interaction play out while we're busy shooting up Scavs in Pacifica while chasing down errant VDB cyberpsycho netrunners and grinding out our 50 kills with Skippy, it is not an irrelevant interaction. The choices you have as a player do not represent a narrative arc for V, because that would require V to change as a person. They don't. Any changes that V has a minor shifts in opinion, at most, but there is no real arc for V. V's story is a simple "save yourself" one, the very core of any good cyberpunk story, but the actual character arc goes to Silverhand.

The story can absolutely be about both of them. But if it has to be about one or the other, it's Silverhand. V is just a passenger in that, the same way that Geralt of Rivia was always just a passenger of Ciri's story in The Witcher. Once again, many people make the mistake of thinking The Witcher is about Geralt, and whilst it does tell stories about Geralt, the primary narrative arc is about Ciri. Cyberpunk tells a story about V, sure, but the primary narrative arc is about Johnny Silverhand.

I agree with a lot of the points you're making but the suggestion that there's only ONE character arc (I really don't get this; there's several) and that the whole story is about Silverhand literally doesn't match up with the way the game is structured. That link shows you what all the main jobs are, which form the main story, and clearly V is the protagonist with their primary objective driving virtually all of them.

Where I agree is that Silverhand has a very well defined character arc compared to V (so does Panam, Judy, River and Kerry, for that matter). V's character arc doesn't really shift far from the landfill. You spend every main job from Act 2 onwards trying to find a cure and unless you went the Temperance path or ended things above Misty's.... you're still trying to find a cure :/ So, I totally agree it feels like a very unfinished arc compared to the other characters. It's very dissatisfying, but, nonetheless, that doesn't change the fact that her arc, regardless of the state it's in, literally forms the the main plot.

The only ending in which Silverhand's story feels like it takes precedence over V's is specifically in the Temperence ending, but that's it. Otherwise, V's story is primary all the way.

 

[Guest 3847602]

What V achieves instead is shaping Johnny's character arc.

What V achieves is shaping their relationship with Johnny.
Johnny's character arc doesn't really exist if V decides to ignore Johnny's plea (and his questchain).
Only one out of four main endings (Temperance) is tied to his character arc.
V and Johhny's relationship is a big focus of CP2077 (and his optional redemption arc is one of game's highlights), but it's not something that drives the story.

 

[Mobster100]

A few thoughts:

1. I actually am inclined to think Phantom Liberty was meant to be the only expansion as we've found out from the data-miners that there was data inside the main game about it but there's no sign about any other game plans for it.

2. The game was flat out unfinished two years ago and a year of fixing bugs and revamping systems has gone a long way to making it stable on previous platforms as well as dealing with the other bugs. I feel like anyone who complains about the game now has to grade it on the curve or they're just wrong.

3. I'm not sure what Night City's "dead"-ness is, though, at least on next generation PCs.

4. The apartments have coffee buffs, sleep buffs, shower buffs, computers, dressing rooms, and armories. I'm not sure what exactly else you could possibly want from them.

5. Also, no offense, fixing performance issues means shit when you, you know, have no more game to play.

I can't say for sure what plans for expansion(s) they had, but given that the CEO and the employees had no issues promising left right and centre, what the game would include and all the awesome things in it and then when the game was released, it didn't even have half of it and for some, it was barely working. So I would expect the comment "You can expect more, actually.” to mean something, even though I shouldn't.

Given how much money they made selling the game under false promises, and CEO had to apologize and them talking about their commitment to quality and whatnot. it seems like very little of that money and promises have gone back into the game.
As I said it's cool that they add some new stuff here and there, but what about all the other stuff they promised? What about fixing all the bugs? You can still not play the game for more than 10 minutes or so, before running into some sort of issue.

Others might forget about all these things, but I don't intend to, if CDPR wants to regain my trust, they have to show it, all they have done so far is to tell me and that doesn't fly.

In regards to a dead NC, I play with all settings on the highest when it comes to traffic and people etc. That is not what I refer to, it is the city itself that is as non-interactive as almost humanely possible. Them adding the horse game is a good start, but it should have been there from the release.

Why are there no casinos? BDs? Strip clubs? Bar games? maybe a boat tour in the city or a blimp to get a tour? Maybe open your own shop, weapon, or car dealer? Invest in stocks? They have a lot of awesome music in the game, why not let you go to a concert or something? there are lots of things they could add.

Simply make people react better to the city.

In regards to the apartments, again it could be a place to do BDs. maybe you could only craft here, each apartment could give you a bonus to street cred XP, and maybe you could have meetings with potential clients looking for a merc here. The ability to upgrade the apartment. maybe play on online casinos. Again, there are lots of things they could do to integrate it into the game.

Performance issues and general stability is always important, otherwise, they might as well just have left the game in the state it was released in, and said that it wouldn't be an issue once people have completed the game

 

[Audi82]

What V achieves is shaping their relationship with Johnny.

Sure, and it work well, specially when the game show us a relationship between V and Silverhand completely illogical and schizophrenic: in some moments they talk and act like choom for life, in others in an aggressive and piquant way to each other without ANY logic. That's because the intersection of primary quests and sides quests is made with the @55 and developers did not provide a sequential of gigs and sides quests builded in a COHERENT and HARMONIZED way with the main path. Obviously it was too much to ask

 

[Mobster100]

Sure, and it work well, specially when the game show us a relationship between V and Silverhand completely illogical and schizophrenic: in some moments they talk and act like choom for life, in others in an aggressive and piquant way to each other without ANY logic. That's because the intersection of primary quests and sides quests is made with the @55 and developers did not provide a sequential of gigs and sides quests builded in a COHERENT and HARMONIZED way with the main path. Obviously it was too much to ask

Also, its kind of funny how Silverhand is sometimes able to interact with objects and move them around, not really sure how that works

 

[AvarageEnjoyer]

Also, its kind of funny how Silverhand is sometimes able to interact with objects and move them around, not really sure how that works

Wait, what? How did I miss that? Can you please show examples?

 

[remiel_pollard]

Summed it up perfectly in both your post. This is why I don't like Cyberpunk's story. It is unequivocally Johnny Silverhand's story. The only thing the player gets to know about V is he's merc, and is about to die. And these things only play as an impetus for the real story of the game.

That's not entirely what I said. What I said is that V's role is as Johnny's anti-paragon. Just like Holden is the paragon of The Expanse, and the character and story arcs all revolve around him, V is an anti-paragon. Absolutely vital to the story because without V, there is no story. just because it's not about V doesn't mean that V isn't an important character. Whether or not you like that is between you and your personal taste, but V's role is not 'just' anything. V's story is as integral to Johnny's as Johnny's is to Cyberpunk's overarching narrative in general.

Also, the player can learn a whole hell of a lot more about V then you give the game credit for. Are you sure you played it?

I want to make something clear. I'm not calling the game out for not making V the main central plot character. This is a normal thing that cyberpunk stories does all the time. A lot of other types of stories do it to, but it doesn't make the story better or worse in the sense of narrative quality. Maybe you personally feel like you're less important because the story's not about V, but that's a personal problem. I have a few personal problems with the game as well but personal problems do not mean something is wrong with the game/story. Again, I'll use the example of the Witcher - the first two games focus much more on Geralt, but as soon as the third game re-introduced Ciri, the story became about her again, and Geralt being the passenger, as it was in the books and as it is to be in the television show. This doesn't make Geralt's character less important. In fact, he is integral to the story as, once again, the conduit through which the reader/player/viewer experiences the story.

Post automatically merged: Sep 18, 2022

Also, its kind of funny how Silverhand is sometimes able to interact with objects and move them around, not really sure how that works

That doesn't happen. There are a few moments when you think it does, but it doesn't. One such moment is when he 'slaps' the pills out of V's hands, but we had already just seen how he was capable of manipulating her fine motor skills so that would explain it. The only other example I can think of is when he picks up and sits on a chair after the mission to Clouds. After he disappears, so does the chair.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Also, its kind of funny how Silverhand is sometimes able to interact with objects and move them around, not really sure how that works

Maybe I'm wrong, but Johnny never interact with anything... It's all in V's mind.
The only one who come in my mind (I'm sure there are others), it's when Johnny move the stool to sit in front of V during Tapeworm (the first time).
But if you look, the "original" one did not move. It's an imaginary one which Johnny move...

 

[CS554]

Wait, what? How did I miss that? Can you please show examples?

There are (or at least were in 1.5) one where Silverhand moves a chair and sits on that and another where curtain at doorway moves when he goes through that. Couldn't find videos from youtube but I think curtain one happened at Judy's.

I never saw those as a big deal, but how V's head is getting effed up and V's brain rationalizing what's happening to process it kind of information that makes sense. Chair one is difficult to see as bug instead of something intentional as there are sound effects there, chair legs are made of metal.

Post automatically merged: Sep 18, 2022

Maybe I'm wrong, but he never interact with anything... It's all in V's mind.
The only one who come in my mind (I'm sure there are other), it's when he move the stool to sit in front of V during Tapeworm.
But if you look, the "original" one never did not move. So it's an imaginary one which Johnny move...

Yeah, that one! I was thinking that chair didn't actually move, but wasn't sure if I remembered it correctly.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

One such moment is when he 'slaps' the pills out of V's hands, but we had already just seen how he was capable of manipulating her fine motor skills so that would explain it.

My explanation is : Exactly like in Fitgh Club, V slap her own face...

Spoiler: Because we are the same person !

 

[remiel_pollard]

I agree with a lot of the points you're making but the suggestion that there's only ONE character arc (I really don't get this; there's several) and that the whole story is about Silverhand literally doesn't match up with the way the game is structured. That link shows you what all the main jobs are, which form the main story, and clearly V is the protagonist with their primary objective driving virtually all of them.

Where I agree is that Silverhand has a very well defined character arc compared to V (so does Panam, Judy, River and Kerry, for that matter). V's character arc doesn't really shift far from the landfill. You spend every main job from Act 2 onwards trying to find a cure and unless you went the Temperance path or ended things above Misty's.... you're still trying to find a cure :/ So, I totally agree it feels like a very unfinished arc compared to the other characters. It's very dissatisfying, but, nonetheless, that doesn't change the fact that her arc, regardless of the state it's in, literally forms the the main plot.

The only ending in which Silverhand's story feels like it takes precedence over V's is specifically in the Temperence ending, but that's it. Otherwise, V's story is primary all the way.

V being a protagonist doesn't mean the story is about them. Geralt is the protagonist of the Witcher, but the Witcher is about Ciri, not Geralt.

V's quest to find a 'cure' (it's not a cure, you're trying to find a way to remove the biochip, a cure is something else and implies a disease and every time someone calls this a 'cure' they do the English language a disservice) is the structure around which the real narrative takes place, the one where V and Johnny are forced into each other's lives and minds and neither get much of a say in the matter. More and more V is faced with the reality of the futility of their quest for salvation, which is the core structure of any good cyberpunk story - a futile quest to save yourself.

There are no endings in which Silverhand's story or V's story take precedence over the other. If that's what you think, then go back and play it again and this time, pay attention. Whatever ending you choose, you are choosing for both V and Silverhand at the same time. That's part of the point - the fates of V and Silverhand are interdependent.

One last thing, the idea that V's arc forms the main plot. No. False. The main plot was formed in the tabletop game. This is a continuation of it, and precisely what makes the story is about Johnny, not V.

Post automatically merged: Sep 18, 2022

What V achieves is shaping their relationship with Johnny.
Johnny's character arc doesn't really exist if V decides to ignore Johnny's plea (and his questchain).
Only one out of four main endings (Temperance) is tied to his character arc.
V and Johhny's relationship is a big focus of CP2077 (and his optional redemption arc is one of game's highlights), but it's not something that drives the story.

The relationship with Johnny is inherent. It goes without saying. And if you see it as something that doesn't drive the story, then you don't understand the story. There is no story without it.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

There are (or at least were in 1.5) one where Silverhand moves a chair and sits on that and another where curtain at doorway moves when he goes through that. Couldn't find videos from youtube but I think curtain one happened at Judy's.

I never saw those as a big deal, but how V's head is getting effed up and V's brain rationalizing what's happening to process it kind of information that makes sense. Chair one is difficult to see as bug instead of something intentional as there are sound effects there, chair legs are made of metal.

Post automatically merged: Sep 18, 2022

Yeah, that one! I was thinking that chair didn't actually move, but wasn't sure if I remembered it correctly.

If I remember I take screenshots (I didn't keep them, and probably difficult to find on the forum^^), during the dialogue, we can see both
(And like Johnny, the imaginary one disappear as soon as you look anywhere else after the dialogue).

 

[remiel_pollard]

What I think I'm seeing here is a confusion between plot and story.

The plot is about the how, when, and why. The biochip slowly killing V is a motivating and driving force behind the story: the plot. The story is the who, what, and where. The story is Johnny's last hurrah in Night City. The plot is he gets it by getting shoved in V's head and slowly killing her as a result. I get that this seems like a convoluted concept and even a difference without a distinction, but thematically it makes sense. The story of Cyberpunk didn't begin with this game. It began a long time ago, and already establishes a narrative that this game continues and, in Johnny's case, concludes. It is the conclusion to Silverhand's story.

 

[Guest 3847602]

Sure, and it work well, specially when the game show us a relationship between V and Silverhand completely illogical and schizophrenic: in some moments they talk and act like choom for life, in others in an aggressive and piquant way to each other without ANY logic. That's because the intersection of primary quests and sides quests is made with the @55 and developers did not provide a sequential of gigs and sides quests builded in a COHERENT and HARMONIZED way with the main path. Obviously it was too much to ask

Yeah, sure, few examples of oddly placed gigs and sidequests (I assume you're referring to Human Nature and Love Rollercoaster, or maybe the conversation at Tom's Diner) completely negates the fact that you do have agency in shaping V's relationship with Johnny.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yeah, sure, few examples of oddly placed gigs and sidequests (I assume you're referring to Human Nature and Love Rollercoaster) completely negates the fact that you do have agency in shaping V's relationship with Johnny.

And it's just a guess, but I assume it's exactly the kind of dialogue lines which were added afterward because "keanu really loved Johnny character".
Dialogue lines which change completely the story indeed

Beside, during the endings, if V choose to return in her body, Johnny have a different behavior depending on your relationship with him.
Hight : V can have some dialogue lines and he's (really) friendly.
Low : He don't say anything and sit "coldly" near the well. He also avoid looking at V (if you try to look at him, he always turn his head in the opposite side).

 

[Mobster100]

Maybe I'm wrong, but Johnny never interact with anything... It's all in V's mind.
The only one who come in my mind (I'm sure there are others), it's when Johnny move the stool to sit in front of V during Tapeworm (the first time).
But if you look, the "original" one did not move. It's an imaginary one which Johnny move...

Ahh ok, might have missed that.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Ahh ok, might have missed that.

I was also intrigued the first time he could move stuff around
A (very) long time ago I remember that we talked about this on the forum. But I don't remember where, when, or with whom
Edit : found it

I think you mean the scene after one of the relic attacks? Johnny looks like he grabs a stool but after the conversation when you stand up you can see the real stool never moved and is still sitting in its original spot. This was something the devs were actually pretty deliberate with and explained that Johnny does things like this to give a sense of presence for himself and also for the player's sake. He can't actually interact with the world unless he takes control of V's body to do it, like the elevator button during Nocturne.

 

[CS554]

What I think I'm seeing here is a confusion between plot and story.

The plot is about the how, when, and why. The biochip slowly killing V is a motivating and driving force behind the story: the plot. The story is the who, what, and where. The story is Johnny's last hurrah in Night City. The plot is he gets it by getting shoved in V's head and slowly killing her as a result. I get that this seems like a convoluted concept and even a difference without a distinction, but thematically it makes sense. The story of Cyberpunk didn't begin with this game.

More than that.

Silverhand makes quite a few things possible.

There was a booklet that came with a game, I suppose that's digital with download version (mine is a box) that tells some background about setting, don't know how many reads those things though. But it's Silverhand that gives us real perspective, beyond some datashards we can find. Think sequence where V meets old guy selling old Samurai stuff and conversation that ensues. It's actually pretty good in more ways than one.

Happens more than once that we get history and perspective to city and some of characters via Silverhand, in a city that really have history from point of view of citizens or culture other than outrageous braindances, brutalistic architecture and giant ads everywhere.

Thematically....

It began a long time ago, and already establishes a narrative that this game continues and, in Johnny's case, concludes. It is the conclusion to Silverhand's story.

Begins even before tabletop game existed. Work that influenced William Gibson, John Shirley's City Come a-Walkin' (1980).

And in game we can ponder story of Silverhand, what kind of person he is, he became a Rockerboy in Night City, lost one thing that mattered, or he thought mattered anyway, in Night City, became a legend there how much he is a product of city and what exactly it's that is taking V over.

 

[koalahugs]

V being a protagonist doesn't mean the story is about them. Geralt is the protagonist of the Witcher, but the Witcher is about Ciri, not Geralt.

V's quest to find a 'cure' (it's not a cure, you're trying to find a way to remove the biochip, a cure is something else and implies a disease and every time someone calls this a 'cure' they do the English language a disservice) is the structure around which the real narrative takes place, the one where V and Johnny are forced into each other's lives and minds and neither get much of a say in the matter. More and more V is faced with the reality of the futility of their quest for salvation, which is the core structure of any good cyberpunk story - a futile quest to save yourself.

There are no endings in which Silverhand's story or V's story take precedence over the other. If that's what you think, then go back and play it again and this time, pay attention. Whatever ending you choose, you are choosing for both V and Silverhand at the same time. That's part of the point - the fates of V and Silverhand are interdependent.

One last thing, the idea that V's arc forms the main plot. No. False. The main plot was formed in the tabletop game. This is a continuation of it, and precisely what makes the story is about Johnny, not V.

Post automatically merged: Sep 18, 2022

The relationship with Johnny is inherent. It goes without saying. And if you see it as something that doesn't drive the story, then you don't understand the story. There is no story without it.

Ehhh, yeah... I've paid pretty close attention to the game several times now, thank you very much. And nope, the story is still definitely about V trying to survive in Night City. Johnny's story is nested within that, so in that sense it's also about them, but it's still blatantly V's story. But whatever, you're not gonna change your mind.

FYI the reason people keep using the term "cure" on this forum is because it's shorthand. They don't actually mean cure in the literal sense. We've been talking about this for years now and whenever someone says, "I want V to find a cure!", they're doing that because it's easier than saying, "I want V to get the remaining decades of her life back after removing the relic chip." It's just become part of the vernacular.

Also, we're not talking about the tabletop, we're talking about CP77 as a standalone story.

 

[remiel_pollard]

Also, we're not talking about the tabletop, we're talking about CP77 as a standalone story.

Well that's your mistake there, because it's not a standalone story. When taken in context with everything that it's based on, it is a story about Silverhand. If it was just a story about V 'trying to survive NC' then 1. Silverhand wouldn't be required, and 2. it would be a pretty crappy story. Cyberpunk, the genre, has never been about 'just surviving'. It's very much about the futility of resisting the inevitable, or otherwise being powerless to stop it. Cyberpunk isn't about surviving anything. It's about being defeated, and the relentless crush of a dark future. Always has been, and this game is no different. There are no heroes, no happy endings. V doesn't beat the dragon, get the girl, and live happily ever after. V still dies. Because what V is primarily is a medium for Johnny to finish his story.

And yes, there are elements of the story that are about V, but again, you are confusing plot for story. The biochip slowly killing V is a plot element, not story. It is a motivating factor and a driving force for the story, but not the story itself. It is, quite literally, the Infinity Gems for Cyberpunk, except unlike in the MCU, it serves a narrative purpose as well, but isn't in and of itself the story. It is the plot. The catalyst upon which the narrative reaction occurs to produce the final chapter about Johnny Silverhand.

Everyone wants to believe that they are the hero of the story that they are in. That's why people want it to be about V, because that makes it about you. But this isn't that kind of RPG, and never has been, not even the tabletop game. V is a protagonist, it's true, but more than they, V is a conduit through which the story is told to the player, and through which the player determines what direction the story goes in.

You cannot simply dismiss the relevance of the story told in the tabletop game especially considering that Pondsmith himself, the creator of the entire franchise, has in no uncertain terms made it very clear that it is 100% relevant. So, I'm sorry, but if we're talking about CP77, then we're talking about the tabletop game as well. They are like time and space - one depends on the other, and vice versa.