Idea for Princess Adda Leader Card

[Jimmani]

In case Princess Adda ever changes to not be a simple Cursed Create card, I had an idea/suggestion and would be interested to see what other players think about it.

A 4 Strength card.

Effect: Whenever another Cursed unit appears, boost it by half this card's strength. (Similar to the effect a Drakkar has)

This I believe could revitalise somewhat the NR Cursed archetype. The card itself could be a 4 point flop like Henselt and even with 2-3 cursed units on the board it's still underwhelming but it also can be devastating if played strategically and in long rounds. It has synergy with units like Luberkin/Botchling, Kaedweni Revenant and can also disrupt some strategies with Iris or Harald Houndsnout.

Plus it makes the opponent be careful with their removal on your cards because if left alive and strengthened it becomes a beast. Anyway, it might be a useless suggestion since homecoming will change a lot of things but if anyone would like to share their opinion I'd be happy to read it.

 

[devivre]

Moved your thread to our suggestions section

 

[Jimmani]

Moved your thread to our suggestions section

Thanks. My bad

 

[EmilyWoW]

Seems way too powerful for me. Especially with that skeleton that spawn copy of himself (forgot the name). Being boosted by half strength is going up very fast (+2/+3/+5/+7/+11/+16.....)

 

[Jimmani]

Seems way too powerful for me. Especially with that skeleton that spawn copy of himself (forgot the name). Being boosted by half strength is going up very fast (+2/+3/+5/+7/+11/+16.....)

Hmm, maybe you're right. In case someone doesn't have removal in their deck the boost can get insanely powerful.
I guess a more stable solution would be to give her own body more strength (like a 8 strength) while keeping the boost at a +2.

Or, a reverse system could also be interesting. She's 6-8 strength and get's a +2 for every Cursed unit on the board.

The skeletons are the Kaedweni Revenants who see very little competitive play at the moment because they're easily removed. With said leader there would be synergy and it might be worth including them in a cursed deck.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

If the enemy has any form of removal she won't live long. 4 points of strength isn't anything, even most decks with damge engines should be able to destroy that (spies, movement, machines, axeman,...). And the only way to instantly buff her are Wolfsbane, which should be really hard to play because her strength is so low, or Siege Supports. And even with the latter she only gets up to 7 points, which is countered by any form of hard removal.

At the other hand, if she stays alife and you can play a Tormented Mage into Swallow Potion, without the enemy being able to scorch her, you have basically won the game.

Such a concept falls pretty much in the same category as Imlerith Sabbath concerning the risk reward value, with a lot more risk and a bit less reward.


I'm honestly against the concept of boosting cursed units at all, because it would force her to use Kaedweni Revenants. And a leader that is more or less only working with a single bronze card is pretty bad.

Also the problem is that at the moment there doesn't exist a Cursed archetype at all. While there are a few synergies between the cursed cards there isn't a common theme at all. And I think that should be the first step to think about, what should the cursed archetype do and what role should Adda play in it.

 

[G4merY]

Feedback

1. 4 Power for an engine, specially a Leader engine, is very low. She won't stay for long, unless...
2. "Boost it by half this card's strength." Such open-endedness, that is limitless boost, can result in very undesirable results and matches. Of course, anyone can simply Pass the round never to see her again (she being a NR Leader card), but what's her point, then? More importantly, this phrase will only encourage a very specific kind of Boost-Curse deck. Whereas Leaders are expected to promote variation.
3. A +2 Boost is a better alternative. Now, a Gold card's base-power is supposed to be 15 (no ability Geralt). The average number of cards on-board per-round is 3-5. That makes up for 6-10 Power. So, Princess Adda should be a 9 Power Gold Leader card. Being a Leader, she cannot be boosted by the Gold tutor, and can easily be removed the turn she is played by Alzur's Thunder.
4. Princess Adda is a cursed striga in the novel and video-game. Now personally speaking, I prefer the cards' abilities to follow the lore in some way. And I don't understand how Princess Adda (whether striga or not) could be boosting cursed units around her.
5. A reverse system (where she's 6-8 strength and get's a +2 for every Cursed unit on the board) is an even worse idea, because such units are easily countered by a Reset card (Mandrake). She'll have to be Immune, or Strengthened...but neither of that will follow the lore.

If CDPR is reading this: Make 'every' Leader card unique, and I strongly recommend that you get rid of the undependable Create mechanic for Leaders, or even of the Create mechanic itself altogether.

 

[Khreygond]

In case Princess Adda ever changes to not be a simple Cursed Create card, I had an idea/suggestion and would be interested to see what other players think about it.

A 4 Strength card.
Effect: Whenever another Cursed unit appears, boost it by half this card's strength. (Similar to the effect a Drakkar has)

This I believe could revitalise somewhat the NR Cursed archetype. The card itself could be a 4 point flop like Henselt and even with 2-3 cursed units on the board it's still underwhelming but it also can be devastating if played strategically and in long rounds. It has synergy with units like Luberkin/Botchling, Kaedweni Revenant and can also disrupt some strategies with Iris or Harald Houndsnout.

Plus it makes the opponent be careful with their removal on your cards because if left alive and strengthened it becomes a beast. Anyway, it might be a useless suggestion since homecoming will change a lot of things but if anyone would like to share their opinion I'd be happy to read it.

4 strength is insanely low. If you somehow strengthen her/boost her, your greatest threat is actually Letho: Kingslayer. This single card is why we don't have Leader engines anymore (See: Old Harald)

What she could do instead is "transform into a Striga and play, then return the Striga to your hand". Assuming your opponent is not Monsters, you deal 8 damage plus gain a card. Though I think that would be too strong.

 

[G4merY]

What she could do instead is "transform into a Striga and play, then return the Striga to your hand".

I like the idea of her transforming into a striga, obviously. But Striga is already a 14 Power Silver, and Leaders are supposed to be 16. So, the ability to play Striga twice (which is a very powerful card in itself, as all dueling cards are) and the card advantage seems overly rewarding, like you yourself acknowledged. Add to that the Leader's impotency against the Monster faction and lack of any interaction with her own cards at all, and that makes this a bad idea.

I'm thinking she could be a 12 Power Princess Adda, which could transform into a Silver Striga whenever she is attacked. 12 Power would save her from most removals, except Scorch (even Scorch if the CA Spy is played) and the most Power-hungry Viper Witchers. Moreover, it could also keep the opponent's damage-engine cards at bay. And it being the NR faction and not SK, damaging Adda oneself should be relatively difficult. I'm not sure what are the reasonable options in NR to deal damage to your own card. This still seems a bit flawed though, because it's too self-centred, which isn't how a Leader card should be. Having said that, I wanna see a Leader (or some other card) transform into a card from another faction, and Princess Adda is perfect for this. Maybe reduce her to a Gold, to implement this somewhat.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

But Striga is already a 14 Power Silver, and Leaders are supposed to be 16.

I wonder, where that value comes from. I would have placed leaders between 20 and 25:

Spoiler

Henselt is 3+ 2 bronze cards is approx. 25
Foltest is 5+20 cards that are played is 25 as well
Emhyr is at least a silver + 4 and has additional utility
Brouver is also a silver +4 and has additonal utility
Crach is 7 +a bronze or silver
Calveit is a stronger Last Wish +5
Eithne is 5+ a silver and allows the player to use a card twice
some of the other leaders might be more difficult to assign values to, because they have a lot more utility or are higher risk rewards, but I'd say the interval of 20 to 25 captures all leaders pretty well

What she could do instead is "transform into a Striga and play, then return the Striga to your hand". Assuming your opponent is not Monsters, you deal 8 damage plus gain a card. Though I think that would be too strong.

If silvers are worth 14, a silver spy gives you -13 but a card in hand for around 13 points as well. So cardadvantage with a 0 point play card, should be worth at least 14 points. Adding the strength of the Striga, we get at least a 20 point leader against MO and 36 against all other factions.
So far that has been only a theoretical value derived from the strength of CA spies. There are a few things that have to been included as well. Against MO, the player can just mulligan her between rounds, making her at least a 25 point play against MO.
Furthermore, with this Adda the player would be guaranteed to have the last play. Just include Ciri:Nova in your deck, and you win the game.

By the way, Burza confirmed that Adda will be changed.

 

[G4merY]

I wonder, where that value comes from. I would have placed leaders between 20 and 25

Mainly from Radovid (16) and SK's Tuirseach Leader (17) who can Spawn a Bearmaster. And Foltest even, as you can only play at-most 10 cards in a normal (no drawing of additional cards) round. You're somewhat right, I didn't take the Power of Radovid's Locks' ability into consideration, just the damage. Although, I was considering the base value of Leaders, but then that for Radovid would be 8, if there were no units on opponent's side of the board. Same is true for Dagon. And a lot of new NR players start their matches with Foltest like amateurs for a mere 5 Power play. Similarly, a bad Henselt would be just 3. I guess it's really hard to judge/guess the base Power of Leader cards, which is part of the problem of Gwent's imbalance.

And Silvers are 12, based on SK' Jutta an Dimun (is 13, but deals 1 damage to self upon play), and some other cards I observed but don't remember. Base Power is what you should get, as opposed to maximum Power which you get under favourable conditions, when you play the card right. Similarly, the base Power of Bronze is supposed to be 9, which can escalate to about 12, even more. For example, NR's Battering Ram which is usually a 9 Power card, can be 12 if played right, even 16 if played expertly, or just 6 under bad circumstances. Similarly, NG' Alchemist, MO' Wild Hunt Warrior, ST' Dwarf Skirmisher, etc. Of course, then came Midwinter Update, and you could have 12 Power, no sweat, Half Elf Hunters, conveniently broken into two separate units. Viper Witchers which can deal even 13 damage from the get go and can be revived to be played AT LEAST 6 times; who needs Golds, right? Midwinter raised the base for Bronze from 9 to 12, and managing Power among the various cards has been a chore for CDPR ever since. Hopefully, they'll finally take care of it with Homecoming. It's irreparable, otherwise; the good thing is, they too know it.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

I don't think we should look at the base case, but the average case. How much the leader does in a deck composed around him and how much value does he get there on average (how likely is a play and how much worth is it). Also, we should focus on decks used in competetive play and not at those of inexperienced players or players still missing cards.

I'd like to elaborate my reasoning for how much worth a couple of leaders are in detail:

Spoiler

Foltest (25)
As nearly all games are two rounds long, Foltest should be at least 5 +13, because if you can't get higher value out of him by playing him later, there is no reason not to play him as the first card, which was long the standard way before he boosted units on the board too. Also, there are hardly any games without tutors, of which NR has quite a lot. You should expect at least 2 in total of Stennis, DJ, Reaver Scout.
Foltest is normally played with extra deck thinning cards like BSC, Temerian Infantry or Dun Banner, there is also the possibility to play him with Tokens like Germain, Revenant, or PFI. The Standard version is BSC+Temerian Infantry which should add a +5 value on Foltest (6 if Roche is used). If you exchange one of those for PFI, which is also likely, you get about the same value with certainty.
Different variants of Foltest is the 40 card version, which gets even more value out of him, a Revenant version which is high risk reward, or a version with siege units whiich gets at least +2 from his crew, such that I'd say the +5 should be the average deck specific value.
This leads me to a total value of 5+13+2+5, which is 25 on an average case. This makes sense, because Foltest ist quite a low tempo play, and therefore should have higher value than other leaders.

Henselt(>18)
Henselt depends on the number of cards he is able to pull. And pulling 0 is a case that only should happen, when the enemy uses Sweers, and even then it is only a 6 point play less than that silver (let me prove later that silvers are 14 points), so 8 points on the worst case. Even if Sweers is used the Henselt player should in 50% of all cases still get one card with Henselt, such that it becomes 3+11 (there are a lot of low or unconditional bronzes, and a machine +Henselts Crew should be those 11 at least), which is 4 more than the silver counter, and therefore of 18 point value giving Henselt an average value of 13 if Sweers is used by the opponent.
In a normal game without that direct counter, lets assume Henselt should 50% be able to play one card and the other 50% be able to play two cards. (The two card variant should nonetheless be a lot higher in reality) which gives him a value of 19,5. If even a fifth of all enemies uses Sweers, that would make him a 18 point leader at least.

Dagon(18)
With Wild Hunt being 4 power, it is safe to assume Weather Cards being only worth 8 power. That makes Dagon at least 16 power. Lets ignore the Foglet because you might have other Fogs that can draw those too. Nonetheless, Dagon offers three additional features that should be included in his power. He is able to circumwent the 3 bronze card limit, and by thus gives the player the possibility to have more weather than the opponent, he guarantees that you have weather available from the start and he offers a choice. All three of them should be worth 2 points of value at least.

Eist Tuirsearch(19)
Besides being 5 points and spawning a bronze card, Eist has the advantage that he can choose that card from a medium sized card pool, which is something that is pretty valuable. Also by spawning he also circumwents the limitation of 3 bronzes and gives access to certain cards, even if you didn't draw them. With his bigger card pool, I'd say that should be worth at least 3 points. So I'd say he is 5+11+3 power.

Jan Calveit(20)
As said before, he is basically the Last Wish, but with one more choice and a 5 point body, which should at least make him a 20 point leader.

Therefore the value of most leaders should be a lot higher than what you assumed.



Silvers:
Jutta is only 12 strength, but she is a leftover from an older version of Gwent, when selfwounding was still a thing.

Spoiler

Ves(14)
Ves is 12 power and can swap up to 2 cards, with swapping being worth about 1, such that it makes her a 14 power card.

The Guardian(14)
He gives the opponent a 5 value bronze without any synergie thus being at least a 17 point play, if the Lesser Guardian isn't mulliganed. In the other case he basically removes 1 mulligan from the enemy, which is worth at least 1, I'd say even more, because how bad it can be for some decks. Also there even exist combos with other cards like Albrich. So in average he should definetly be 14 points worth.

Germain(15)
He is an unconditional 14 points, and with 5 bodies he has a lot of synergies in Swarm Decks, so he worth 15 or even more.

Trollolo(15)
He has an 11 point body and 9 armour. I would calculate the armour with at least 50% to his strength, because being used with Kaedweni Cavalry or Vincent it is a sure 50% value at least.

Ronvid(14)
Ronvid usually reappears at least once and offers a Crew, which makes him at least 14 points.

Dethmold/Ida/Weathermaker(15)
Even if you only use Alzurs Thunder, Dethmold&Co are at least 13 power. With Alzur being able to shut down any engine and Dethmold&Co offering a choice, they should be about 16.

Barclay Els(>15)
2 body+3 strengthen +a random bronze or silver dwarf (I'd say that one should be only 10 points, because there are situations where it can be useless) that makes him 15 points. If you play a deck is only one different dwarf card, it makes himm even stronger.

Maerolorn(>15)
4 body + a deathwish of your choice

Cynthia(>14)
There are 66 cards in the game with 10 or more power, one of them being the CA spy, which is included in nearly every game, so without the reveal she should be at least 14 points.

Joachim(>16)
Playing a random bronze card should only be worth 9 points, because it can be quite bad. Nonetheless he offers +5 power in total and has a spying tag which should be worth at least 2 points in spy decks.

While there are silvers that are left behind there are actually a lot silvers that have easily 14 power.

Feel free to discuss my argumentation further.

 

[Khreygond]

I don't think we should look at the base case, but the average case. How much the leader does in a deck composed around him and how much value does he get there on average (how likely is a play and how much worth is it). Also, we should focus on decks used in competetive play and not at those of inexperienced players or players still missing cards.


Feel free to discuss my argumentation further.

I think saying silvers are, on average, 14 points, is not exactly the case. With a baseline consume, I don't have a silver that's worth less than 16 in the second round. Maerolorn with the overboosted Nekker, Ozzrel, Toad which can eat spies or boosted nekkers, Monster's Nest, Mandrake, and the spy.

A good silver Value imo, unless it's part of the disruption, is 15 and upwards. A good gold value is 19 and upwards. Similarly, A good Leader value, either overtime or on play, should be on average 20 - 23. Francesca and Eithne as such, are never worth that. Calveit usually doesn't either but his value lies in showing you what's at the top of your deck, giving a lot of potential to Vilgefortz, Cantarella, etc. Emhyr and the Arachas Queen rarely get that value on play, but they usually get more than that over time ( the Queen is 7 + 3 to each of your nekkers. Already 16 even in baseline consume, aside from summoning harpies, eating eggs, or Nekker spam decks).

So Adda needs to be balanced around that value. But the Cursed deck needs something new. I think it should have some graveyard interaction like "resurrect 3 cursed units from your graveyard as STR 6 wraiths" or afflicting the opponent's units with a curse. Could be like, anything that gets damaged or destroyed by a cursed unit or special card ( bloody flail, damned sorceress) becomes cursed when it goes to the graveyard and then, through certain cards, you can resurrect these units as low power wraiths from either graveyard if you are the cursed player. I don't think that should be a leader ability because then in the case of a mirror match, it becomes all about who goes first in R3 and manages to use the leader first to just resurrect the entirety of his and his opponent's units as STR 3 or so wraiths. But I think it definitely could solve the problem of Adda's power and ability to fit in the cursed archetype

 

[G4merY]

@FG15-ISH7EG While I already agreed that Leaders' Power are above 16, and I did say that I was considering the base Power of Leaders, I actually was considering their average Power. Otherwise, I would've assigned Radovid just 8 and not 16 Power. What I meant is the Power it can generate the turn it is played on its own. While this would be unfair to Leaders like Francesca and Arachas Queen like @ser2440 pointed out, even if you consider a Silver 12, Eithné is easily 17.

And my whole logic for Silvers being a 12 is derived from Geralt. I think he's probably the only card which reads 'No ability.' This means that irrespective of the situation, he'll always slam 15 Power on the board. Of course, there're Golds which'll acquire more or less Power based on the given situation, but Geralt makes it pretty obvious that a Gold's Power is set to 15.

Playing a random bronze card should only be worth 9 points, because it can be quite bad.

And you in your previous comment yourself acknowledged that a Bronze is 9, so logically, a Silver between the two should be 12. Of course, the Silver weather tutor which is common to all decks is of (4+9) 13 Power. So, is the CA Spy (-13). Germain is the highest Silver Power slam at 14. Alzur's Thunder is 9, but being a Special card is supposed to be played with a tutor, so should be (9+2) 11. So, I guess the Powers could be 15, 13 and 11 for Golds, Silvers and Bronzes respectively. But there're also 12 Power Bronze Half-Elf Hunters.

So, all in all, Gwent's Power balance is in a terrible condition currently, and this discussion isn't really worth having on a second thought. Let's just wait for Homecoming; it can't be too long now. And then we'll hopefully have something more solid to analyse and discuss.

 

[Khreygond]

@FG15-ISH7EG

And my whole logic for Silvers being a 12 is derived from Geralt. I think he's probably the only card which reads 'No ability.' This means that irrespective of the situation, he'll always slam 15 Power on the board. Of course, there're Golds which'll acquire more or less Power based on the given situation, but Geralt makes it pretty obvious that a Gold's Power is set to 15.

First of all the Imperial Manticore, a 13 point silver of Monsters, also reads 'no Ability'. S owe can safely deduce that "basic silver value" is about 13 points.
Secondly a card is pretty much defined by 6 values:

1) Cost. What else do you need to invest on to make its effect activate at max impact. For example, with Whispess: Tribute, it's mandatory that you take 2 at least 2 Organic cards. With Rainfarn, you need at least 2 Spies. With Ciri: Nova and Shupe, you need to take 2 copies and 1 copy of each bronze respectively.
2) Max direct Value. How much points they can give you when played optimally. Scorch has pretty much unlimited Max Value for example, with it being dependent on the opponent's units.
3) Consistency. How often said card gets its max value, how likely it is.
4) Indirect Value. What the effect of the card is outside points received on that turn. Mandraking a Calveit is only 6 points, but it's a further 6 on R3 if you resurrect him with Cahir. Emhyr -> Vesemir -> Mandrake into a Nilfgaardian Knight is only 1 point swing but it has a huge indirect value. Same thing about Card advantage spies. Their point swing is negative but they allow you to hold onto the card they draw for you, essentially giving you an edge in later rounds.
5) Thinning. Allowing you access at not only key cards (Vesemir -> Mandrake is crucial to the handbuff strategy), but thinning down your deck, increasing the odds you'll draw your best cards afterwards. Spies also do that.
6) Flexibility. How many ways this card has to gain its value

Geralt of Rivia is a very basic Gold because it's got a low Max Direct Value, nonexistent indirect value, flexibility and thinning, but 100% consistency and no cost at all. Ciri: Nova also has 100% consistency but a high max direct value, no indirect value, no thinning, no flexibility and something that, at least in some cases, was envisioned like a heavy cost.

As you can understand, Cards like Rainfarn and Whispess: Tribute become essential this way, due to Thinning, Consistency, good max direct value, good flexibility depending on the card they end up tutoring, and sometimes, indirect value as well.

That way, you gotta balance the cards around these 6 values. That's why Geralt of Rivia, even if pretty weak, is "balanced". And Hym, is not.
It's the same thing about leaders. In order to consider whether the card is balanced, you gotta think about these 6 aspects of it first. As such, a gold's power is NOT 15. A gold that has 0 cost, 100% consistency, 0 flexibility, 0 indirect value has a value of 15.

 

[G4merY]

@ser2440 Okay, very educational. Although I did know some of this subconsciously, thanks for putting it so comprehensively. Well done.

 

[Pruny]

First of all the Imperial Manticore, a 13 point silver of Monsters, also reads 'no Ability'. S owe can safely deduce that "basic silver value" is about 13 points.
Secondly a card is pretty much defined by 6 values:

1) Cost. What else do you need to invest on to make its effect activate at max impact. For example, with Whispess: Tribute, it's mandatory that you take 2 at least 2 Organic cards. With Rainfarn, you need at least 2 Spies. With Ciri: Nova and Shupe, you need to take 2 copies and 1 copy of each bronze respectively.
2) Max direct Value. How much points they can give you when played optimally. Scorch has pretty much unlimited Max Value for example, with it being dependent on the opponent's units.
3) Consistency. How often said card gets its max value, how likely it is.
4) Indirect Value. What the effect of the card is outside points received on that turn. Mandraking a Calveit is only 6 points, but it's a further 6 on R3 if you resurrect him with Cahir. Emhyr -> Vesemir -> Mandrake into a Nilfgaardian Knight is only 1 point swing but it has a huge indirect value. Same thing about Card advantage spies. Their point swing is negative but they allow you to hold onto the card they draw for you, essentially giving you an edge in later rounds.
5) Thinning. Allowing you access at not only key cards (Vesemir -> Mandrake is crucial to the handbuff strategy), but thinning down your deck, increasing the odds you'll draw your best cards afterwards. Spies also do that.
6) Flexibility. How many ways this card has to gain its value

Geralt of Rivia is a very basic Gold because it's got a low Max Direct Value, nonexistent indirect value, flexibility and thinning, but 100% consistency and no cost at all. Ciri: Nova also has 100% consistency but a high max direct value, no indirect value, no thinning, no flexibility and something that, at least in some cases, was envisioned like a heavy cost.

As you can understand, Cards like Rainfarn and Whispess: Tribute become essential this way, due to Thinning, Consistency, good max direct value, good flexibility depending on the card they end up tutoring, and sometimes, indirect value as well.

That way, you gotta balance the cards around these 6 values. That's why Geralt of Rivia, even if pretty weak, is "balanced". And Hym, is not.
It's the same thing about leaders. In order to consider whether the card is balanced, you gotta think about these 6 aspects of it first. As such, a gold's power is NOT 15. A gold that has 0 cost, 100% consistency, 0 flexibility, 0 indirect value has a value of 15.

braindead halfelf is 12point so Geralt its not balanced, same for manticore. 18point geralt and 15point manticore would make sense, because germain its allready 14 and he has plenty of extra sinergies.

 

[G4merY]

braindead halfelf is 12point so Geralt its not balanced, same for manticore. 18point geralt and 15point manticore would make sense, because germain its allready 14 and he has plenty of extra sinergies.

Right, I agree. They must be reassigning the values for each, individual card from ground zero, hence Homecoming. I remember how before the Midwinter update the average value (at least my 'broken' version of it) was set to 7, 10 and 13 for Bronzes, Silvers and Golds respectively. They updated it to 9, 12, 15 and simply increased the Power of some old cards over months, but that's just not good enough. For example, if average Power is increased by 2, weather damage could also have been increased by 1. Now, the weather damage isn't as effective anymore, and anybody hardly carries any Clear Skies, or even weather cards.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

The value of Geralt and Manticore doesn't have to be their point value, even if they have no ability. For example Manticore is used via Glorious Hunt in NG handbuff to have an alternative to the Knight.
But as we are never seeing them just as a point play in higher ranks, that should be a clear sign that the average value of used silvers/golds is higher than those two cards.

 

[Pruny]

bronze knight its 12, silver manticore 13 is that balance?? silvers are at least 3-4points over bronzes, same for golds.