Yeah I agree. It isn't like they didn't have the animations there already and simple dialogue could work with it. Hell just being able to kiss your romance goodbye before a long day of Edgerunning would be the cherry on top of the cake!
I am extremely disappointed. I never put a lot of emphasis on romances in games, but I haven't seen anything as bad as this in a long time.
I just have to get rid of my frustration.
I play female V and I'm straight in real life too. So my only option is River. His quests are really great, but the relationship with him isn't really a relationship at all. You can just romance both options and it doesn't matter at all. V doesn't care, your romances don't care, it doesn't affect anything.
After giving River a positive answer and wanting to be with him, you can just romance Judy as if that were perfectly okay. And it's perfectly okay to give her the same answer, too. That you can imagine more with her.
River doesn't care, Judy doesn't care, V doesn't care. River is a character anyway who doesn't even answer the phone after the "romance" ...
I just have to get rid of my frustration.
I play female V and I'm straight in real life too. So my only option is River. His quests are really great, but the relationship with him isn't really a relationship at all. You can just romance both options and it doesn't matter at all. V doesn't care, your romances don't care, it doesn't affect anything.
After giving River a positive answer and wanting to be with him, you can just romance Judy as if that were perfectly okay. And it's perfectly okay to give her the same answer, too. That you can imagine more with her.
River doesn't care, Judy doesn't care, V doesn't care. River is a character anyway who doesn't even answer the phone after the "romance" ...
I did not read through all 5 pages before hitting reply to this, so please accept my appology if this very same was already said and replied.
But I think you are mistaken, Ashii.
During the River questline, specifically at the BBQ, you can opt to not "vote to consider yourself and River a good couple", basically by not replying at all and letting the red bar run out without reaction. On the watertower where he wants your commitment you can clearly state "only friendship, not more". By that it is your very own responsibility to protect your relation with Judy.
CDPR cannot be blamed as they are not responsible to hold our hands and prevent us and our characters from any ill that could befall them - much the opposite as I see it: They hold the choice open for bisexual / polygamous players so that those can opt to go with both Judy and River. And given today's harsh discussions on the net and in the news about inclusion they better go that route...
Maybe in some DLC they will add more options for all orientations to romance and have longer relationships, and maybe those partners then care a bit more to protect "their V" from being approached by others or from approaching others
That is a problem for all, I guess. Male and Female V both have each 2 real romance options depending on if they are hetero- or homosexual... or bisexual / polygamous if taking both... IF taking one night stands and the 4 sexworkers out of the equasion.
What I wonder actually is why the only trans person NPC - at least whom I found so far - cannot get into a relation with V...
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Then please read all pages, because more things are explained there. I don't want to repeat myself again and again. I still can't just tell River to back off, V still flirts with him no matter what during autodialogues and we tell him "no" only seconds before sex proposal, which is big "wtf" for me and many other people.I did not read through all 5 pages before hitting reply to this, so please accept my appology if this very same was already said and replied.
But I think you are mistaken, Ashii.
During the River questline, specifically at the BBQ, you can opt to not "vote to consider yourself and River a good couple", basically by not replying at all and letting the red bar run out without reaction. On the watertower where he wants your commitment you can clearly state "only friendship, not more". By that it is your very own responsibility to protect your relation with Judy.
CDPR cannot be blamed as they are not responsible to hold our hands and prevent us and our characters from any ill that could befall them - much the opposite as I see it: They hold the choice open for bisexual / polygamous players so that those can opt to go with both Judy and River. And given today's harsh discussions on the net and in the news about inclusion they better go that route...
Maybe in some DLC they will add more options for all orientations to romance and have longer relationships, and maybe those partners then care a bit more to protect "their V" from being approached by others or from approaching others
You are of course entitled to your opinion on this matter - sorry that by skipping to read those 5 pages I missed all these explanations, and that I did not make clear that I did not intend to offend you of course.
So I retract the "you are mistaken" if I may, and would change it to an "in my opinion"... I see nothing wrong with noncommittal flirting between two people, or just friendliness, even if the noncommittal is only perceived as such by one of the involved at start. It happens often even in RL that one of the involved has to tell the other off who is already ready for a kiss/love. Yet even in RL if both a strong enough a good friendship can still develop between the two...
This part alone was so awkward, I love it haha. Poor River :/
... sigh. Again. We literally talked about this a page or two ago. We explained why it is a problem and why it should be fixed somehow. It's an rpg, that means we should have freedom in how V reacts to these things, but during these moments, control was taken from us. People want to cheat? Let them cheat. People want to be faithful? Let them be. But we need to have options for it anyway.
Option 1: Tell him/her you're taken.
Option 2: Flirt.
Option 3: Cheat.
That's how most rpgs work, but here? CDPR forgot. Hell, even in Witcher we had options like this. CDPR stated that V is ours to shape, but apparently not when it comes to flirting. We have no control over it.
I could go into Unity right now and use a simple dialogue system that works better than the one in the game, why things are like this in the game is beyond me.
So, now I worked through the last 5 pages.
Frankly, I did not see much other than that you want more options in the game, more decisions to branch into various behaviors. I do understand and respect that - it would be damn cool indeed. I personally would have wanted an option after my first playthrough to not take the biochip into my own body and drive to Dex, instead have Del rush Jacky's still warm body and V to Evelyn and have her inject the chip into herself - it would even make sense as Ev offered before to screw Dex over.
So yes, joke aside (my "wish" would have borked the entire main quest and many sidequests), I understand where you are coming from and what you wish.
Still, in my opinion, it is the trade off between an in all aspects fully controllable character and the chance to push the story halfway securely anyways. In the end, the game was rushed out, and to me it feels as if CDPR developers did not really finish the code, but they cleaned out many (priorly advertised) functions before those would go life buggy and unfinished as well. While I doubt that before such a dev move the explicit chat option to not even flirt with River was present, maybe the setting for a player given character's sexual orientation was still there and more impactful...
Also: While still I know, understand and respect where you come from, I still do not consider a noncommittal flirting or being friendly as anything bad. Like: As long as V knows where her heart is (which is in this case still controlled by the player), she can flirt away all she (or the player, e.g. poliamorous who did not get a set of exclusive possible partners in this game) likes. Like: "Get your appetite all you like, but eat at home"...
The point for CDPR is: give this additional option to flirts, have to give "all other wished options" as well, and that means they quickly get enough work keeping the branching stories consistent to last them for another year... That is not to devalue your request here, I have already posted a huge wishlist myself in the end... My posts were more aimed at the display of a potential further perspective on the topic that might give the issue at hand another reason for existance, or something like that...
It is not stated with any character that V is polyamorous, therefore it should not be assumed to be okay. Nothing wrong with polyamory, but when it isn't discussed with a partner then it becomes cheating. This game make it seem like all the characters are completely okay with it, losing a layer of depth to them.
You are correct: It is not stated that she is polyamorous. Neither it is stated though that she is straight, bi, lesbian or anything of that line. It is what the player makes of her. The issue here is - likely my own - different perspective on noncommittal flirting. You can tell River off before the actual cheating happens, you can decline to go to the BBQ in the first place, you can abstain from doing his entire line of missions, and I think even you can cut it short enough to prevent the romancing to happen (if what I remember from one of the youtube videos about it to be true).
Point is: It is your own responsibility / your own will to be openminded to compromise with other players who might want to play out that part differently, e.g. polyamorous players (who want to play out their own desires in game), etc..
It is kinda to gnarlingly accept that there is a bit of a noncommittal flirting before saying no, so that those other players can also play their desires at all.... given CDPR apparently could not or did not want to add more options into the text based quest system.
E.T.A.: What happened here likely is that the OP played to be kind and helpful at the beginning, then found her V quickly tossed into a flirt situation which made her uncomfortable. That is understandable as it is her personal perception and opinion. From the being helpful/friendly River fell in love and seeked some private time with V before which all was just friendly with a dose of innocent couple making by Joss and her kids. First thing V said on the watertower was "do not fall in love with me"... upon River replied it to be too late. At that point already V could tell him off.
For me, the question is: Such can happen in RL so easily and often, may a person not be helpful/friendly to another anymore just because of the risk of the other falling in love with him or her? Do we really live in a world in which every "Hello" from the other gender must at once be replied to with "I have a boy-/girlfriend" before returning the "hello"? How early does the "I do not wish to flirt at all" have to branch off this story plot? Was all done? Is there no chance for a bit of pity for the building friendship V showed to River and the initiation of the slight bit of flirting before a player could stop it? Not even if by that RL polyamorous people can also play out their joy in that scene / given circumstances?
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That argument is silly. Game has so many problems I don't even know where to begin to describe them. Most likely is that they were lazy and did not even think about adding these options. Seeing how CP is, it wouldn't surprise me one bit.
A mission shouldn't have to skippable to dodge flirtatious dialogue if you don't want it though, that is poor quest and dialogue design on CDPR's part. And once you think about what other people are doing in their playthroughs to accommodate how the dialogue is set up that again lets go of the immersion this game should be striving for.
And before I do a second e.t.a. ...
Yes, I also dislike that there is not more interaction, not more reward in future interactions and meaning between the romancing partners. It feels as if the partners are just collectibles (two per gender body so far) like cars, apartments, the cat pet or the like: put them into your stickerbook and move on...
What I do like of course is that it is our choice to have one or more or none.
The difficult thing is: Where to draw the line to stop certain branches of the story?
That is in general difficult, not just for "before or after flirting", also for CDPR, as there are more options wished by the 8 mio players...
Example: If during the heist, in the penthouse, you do not climb the stairs to the roof but exit through the window right away, you will not get the game's so far best katana. You maybe can exploit some cyberware/pathing and bug yourself to the roof to get it (and then back down), but without exploits you would not get that weapon anymore. It is your choice that leads to you getting or not getting it, with like permanent results...
Yes, I also dislike that there is not more interaction, not more reward in future interactions and meaning between the romancing partners. It feels as if the partners are just collectibles (two per gender body so far) like cars, apartments, the cat pet or the like: put them into your stickerbook and move on...
What I do like of course is that it is our choice to have one or more or none.
The difficult thing is: Where to draw the line to stop certain branches of the story?
That is in general difficult, not just for "before or after flirting", also for CDPR, as there are more options wished by the 8 mio players...
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Your way of expressing things all honored, I wanted to keep mine without insults to the publisher or any posting community member here. And maybe they were not lazy but simply come from another base of manners and education where they do not consider flirting as being the opening to living hell.
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But that is exactly what happens, like all the time. You choose certain replies or actions and you get results. At times those results are that you do or do not get certain other stuff, be it Johnny's car and gun, or a romance option with a specific character / further missions down a line, or whatever. It is basically the core of this mission system.
Example: If during the heist, in the penthouse, you do not climb the stairs to the roof but exit through the window right away, you will not get the game's so far best katana. You maybe can exploit some cyberware/pathing and bug yourself to the roof to get it (and then back down), but without exploits you would not get that weapon anymore. It is your choice that leads to you getting or not getting it, with like permanent results...
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The issues discussed is when it comes to the specific dialogue between River, you don't have the option to opt out of several flirt lines. I played the River mission, I didn't raise my hand during the kids BBQ poll and River walks away, I watched the same situation if someone did raise their hand on Youtube and he still does the same where he gets up and walks off then the mission makes you walk with him to a more romantic spot, reguardless of if you chose to raise your hand or not. You can still reject his advancements but the way the dialogue was presented and recorded I had to carefully pick the right options in case I was treading on thin ice.
True, I played the mission as well, twice meanwhile:
- time I intended my character to be straight, but had accidentally slipped into the relation with Judy just shortly before. I did not raise my hand when Joss and the kids wanted to couple River and my V. Yes, he pulled me to the water tower and I knew what was coming. Still I did not see it as bad to be friendly with him, going with him to the water tower. But when he insisted to have my reply, I told him "just friends". Topic closed. ... Yes, I had not wanted to romance Judy, but could not, due to own personality reasons, withstand her advances - but I honored them ex post and defined that V as lesbian, as a faithful person.
- time I also intended my character to be straight, and purposfully delayed the diving mission with Judy (still have to do it as of now). I did raise my hand for River, and my V is now in a relation with him... only after logging out of the game and before coming to this forum earlier I learned that I could still have both if I wanted to (on youtube).
If you consider it differently, I do honor that. Of course I do. And I honor to agree to disagree in that matter if needed too.
I hear you, maybe it was just the pacing of the mission. I was already feeling awkward from the BBQ and going up to the tower I kept thinking to myself "Am I really going to have to do this again?". It might not be an issue in hindsight for most people, specially since River is pretty open about V not having feelings about him. He even offered alcohol to me and I was just like "Not going there either, I will take the juice (What ever he offered else)." The sad fact is that in real life, a lot of guys and I am sure women as well are scummy and in some cases when people get rejected, bad things tend to happen and it just sucks that happens. The game puts in so much work to immerse you that going up to that tower I felt that fear for some reason even if I knew in the back of my mind nothing bad was going to happen. It is even worse when you like someone else. In real life if i tried to hit on a girl who was with someone the first thing out of there mouth would be that they are with someone, why should I expect any different from this game. Judy straight up rejects you if you are a male, why is the same not applied here?
Oh god yes, you nailed it. In RL such stuff happens too, often, and likely a lot to people of non-straight orientation and female appearance it is even more uncomfortable for. I hate it to get the mitten AND to give the mitten.
The game puts in so much work to immerse you, and not only in that aspect, in like... all aspects! It is dark, evil, brutal, honest, spot on.... I have seen a guy piss on the parking space behind Judy's house (really, he opened his pants and you saw the bow shaped fluid go to the floor), I have eradicated a child BD porn watching group, the mission with the barn you enter to save River's cousin is also about child abuse (they say he is a child, but the display is a fully grown man, likely for legal reasons).
At times I was short before having to step back from the game to get some fresh air... and that has happened to me for the first time now - and trust me, I have roleplayed enormously dark scenes in my past (e.g. in regards to medieval/ancient torture, nothing child related of course). Others had to step out back then even, but this time it hit me... @CDPR: Achievement unlocked...
Sorry, another E.T.A. ... forgot something:
Judy rejects your male character because he is male. Rivert is straight and does not know that your (or my first) female V is lesbian. He tries and it is on you to reply.
That gay rocker man would reject your female V as well, as does Panam (I tried, she did) due to their orientations. Also River would reject a male V. Pretty sure that rocker will hit on a male V and try until he finds out if he is gay or straight, which then also is upon the player to react/explain. As will Panam do.
It is because each body type has 1 romance option for straight and 1 for homosexual. The NPCs can reject based on their prefs and V's gender, what the player of V wants, the NPCs can eventually not know from the start...
Grrrr §$%&/ ... E.T.A. #2: so soooooorrry
Judy straight up rejects a male V because she is lesbian. The same applied here means that V would straight up reject River because she is lesbian... that would require to fix a setting at character creation that sets your sexual orientation, or at least an OOC question once you start your first relation about which LGBTQ+ orientation your V would have, limited to the ones remaining given your first choice...
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The one moment that made me take a break from the game was the crucifix scene, shit was so fucked up and the corpo media's are just ok with it. But that is discussion for another board.