actually triss is quite different in games than she was in the books.
i have to agree without about the realistic approach, and what fits geralt's and yen's profile along the guide lines sapkowski provided.
if @Liquidacid wants go jumping around in gerlat's underwear in novigrad then he can enjoy it, for me and you it would destroy our immersion.
Good analysis of what may have been going through their minds. Really there should be no surprise that you couldn't have them both, it's obvious that sharing Geralt wouldn't be in their characters. What did surprise me though is that Geralt wasn't given an ultimatum scene a la Mass Effect. Yet this resolution of getting dumped by both is probably more realistic. It should make people think twice about two-timing in future games, as there's no guarantee that you'll be able to keep either just like in real life.
Yes it does, but instead of leading to a situation where you can try resolving it leads to all of you breaking up without any chance to remedy it.
Well, even though I didn't get that scenario, I'm also disappointed in the resolution of this moment. Yen should have brutally murdered Triss in this scenario and then guilt trip Geralt that it's all his fault. And without Yen he won't be able to save Ciri, so he'll have to live with it even if he'll be ready to kill Yen. That would have been in Yen's real character (as she was represented in books).
Well, I do think that it should be possible to express your Geralts true feelings without it automatically communicating that he is pursuing a relationship. Just because you happen to love two different persons does not mean that you can not say no to being in a relationship with one of them if the situation and individuals are not into polyamory. And love is not always of the same kind, perhaps Geralt care deeply about both but sees that he will not be able to maintain a healthy relationship with one or both.
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It's impossible to prove anything to Yen's fanboys by definition and serious discussion with your likes is impossible. So, I'm not going to start another religious war with Yen's fanboys in this thread too.
That has nothing to to with being a fanboy or whatsoever. But you just claim something to be true without being able to strenghten your argument.
We are having a discussion here, and there is a way how to discuss properly.
Throwing some wild claims around and calling everybody that disagrees with you a hopeless fanboy is not how to have a discussion.
I agree with what has been said so far and it totally makes sense you can't have both + that analysis is pretty accurate.
I also was surprised that there wasn't an option later to choose between them, I was kinda expecting it to happen at one point, but if you look at realism, I think this is done in an extremely realistic manner unlike Bioware games and such where you get an ultimatum and pick 1 of the 2.
That totally depends on the personality of the individual if she is agreeing to let go despite the fact her love said he loves her + another chick and being completely unfaithful and a prick basically, I think it could happen in rare cases but in most of them, if you tell 2 girls you love them and they find out about it, I am pretty confident both would dump your ass and never give the chance to patch things up
So basically, I am personally upset that I expected an option to choose and got a shit ending on that regard in the end but being fair, it's extremely realistic and well deserved in the end unlike in many other games where we got used to having that option too many times by now...
So, you claim you can keep such discussion civil even while being Yen's fanboy? I don't mind people who disagree with me as long as they are listening to my arguments, not fanatical, and brings up valid counterarguments. So far what I've seen this forum is swarming with a bunch of fanatics from the Yen's cult. OK, let's see, here's the reasoning of my post.
As I said in the different thread, where I was immediately swarmed by rabid fanboys who started insulting me, Yen's personality as it was described fits the psychopath profile. Psychopaths are the people who lack compassion and empathy on a genetic level (it cannot be fixed) but they can sometimes believably fake it to blend in the society. There are multiple instances of the Yen's behaviour that is clearly psychopathic. For example, listen how Letho describes Yen at the end of the TW2 (i.e. from 4:15 to 4:26 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtmkjPaooOQ ), he describes classical psychopathic behaviour. The way the grove quest with Skjall's body plays out, Yen demonstrates another psychopathic trait, when she doesn't care how the result she wants is achieved. In Kaer Morhen multiple instances of her dialogue clearly indicates her psychopathic tendencies. There are plenty descriptions of her behaviour that is of a psychopath in the books as well. Why Sapkowski decided that Yen character should be a psychopath I have no idea, ask him, but he created her this way. For her fanboys to jump in joy: the way she is shown handling the break up with Geralt if you choose to do so is absolutely not how psychopaths would behave, a psychopath would start accusing the person of their faults to make them feel guilty for the break up and reverse their decision (if they don't want to break up themselves, of course). This inconsistency though is overwhelmingly outweighed by other instances of her behaviour where she is clearly psychopathic but will be good enough for her fanboys and fangirls to grasp this straw and claim that she's not. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure if the crones were shown only in the human form, some people would have been dreaming to plough them in this game.
Having in mind the reasoning above, the scenario I described earlier is consistent with actions that a psychopath might have undertaken. So, now I expect your civil and argumented response if you want to continue this discussion.
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Wooo almost forgot about this topic!
But enough of that. Your main argument is: "Yennefer is a psychopath", so let's just use the Psychopathy Checklist by Robert D. Hare which is used for
a Diagnosis. It contains 20 factors that are rated with either 0 (does not apply), 1 (partial match or mixed information) and 2 (reasonably good match).
To be diagnosed as a psychopatch you need to get at least 25 out of 40 points. (For more info and source: wikipedia and/or google)
So lets do it:
Facet 1: Interpersonal
Glibness/superficial charm
She has depth, she just doesn't show it to everyone, then again, all sorcereresses use magic to reform their usually deformed bodies,
so there is some superficial charm here, let's give 1 point.
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Well, she is one of the more powerful sorceresses, used to advise kings and such, but yeah 2 points here.
Pathological lying
nope, definitely not. Take for example her scene with Ciri in the books,
were she demands sincerity from Ciri - but also grants sincerity to her in return, which she proves by answering Ciris very personal question.
Also before that in the short story Ice Shard were she doesn't lie to geralt about her relationship with the other sorcerer.
btw. don't confuse the occasional lie with pathological lying, so 0 points here
Cunning/manipulative
she is cunning and can be very manipulative (as basically every sorcerer/ess), so 2 points
Facet 2: Affective
Lack of remorse or guilt
to quote the answer I mentioned beforehand
Then again there are situations were she feels no guilt, like the garden scene or the mask of ouroboros in the game, so 1 point.
Emotionally shallow
I could quote until the thread has reached it's maximum lenght
I give you two, if you need more, just ask.
Callous/lack of empathy
I admit I am missing examples here, I will check later for more information, for now let's give her 1 point.
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
0 points can't be clearer. Take the garden scene for example, were she fully takes the blame for what she had done, taking any responsibilty from geralt.
Sometimes her actions are questionable of course, but the never lacks of taking the resonsibility for it.
Facet 3: Lifestyle
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
honestly? No idea about that. I don't think that she ever needed outside stimulation to act, she usually takes the initiative, but not enough information here, so 1 point.
Parasitic lifestyle
She has her own income, is independent (for example she used to sell magical stuff in her Home at Vengerberg), nothing parasitic here. 0 points.
Lack of realistic, long-term goals
she is exremely persistent in reaching her set goals, like finding Ciri in the games. I will try to find mor einformation about her life goals in general so 1 points as of now.
Impulsivity
She has her moments of Impulsivity, yes, but usually she acts very consciously (for example while talking to the emperor), but yeah 1 point here.
Irresponsibility
Same as above, she usually acts consiously and responsible but sometimes she acts first and thinks of the consquences later, so 1 point
Facet 4: Antisocial
Poor behavioral controls
0 points, she acts controlled in almost all scenes (in the games and the book)
Early behavioral problems
Not much is known about her youth. We know that she tried to kill herself, because she couldn't take the abuse any longer that she suffered as a (disformed) child. But she turned out to be the best student in her class so, can't give her more then 1 point here.
Juvenile delinquency
Revocation of conditional release
Criminal versatility
again not much is known about her past, but she never was in jail, as far as we know, and is also no criminal. (well at least in the common sense, there are people who call sorceresses criminal in general)
let's give her 1 point in each segment, since we don't have more accurate information here.
Others:
Many short-term marital relationships
Other then Geralt, only one relationships is known, with the mage Istredd, she probably has some lovers during their "off time" but that's it (and absolutely normal), 0 points
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Some of the sorceresses are know to by nymphomaniacs, but Yennefer is not described as one, though she does have a liking for...let's say unsual lovemaking so 1 point.
so thats 16/40 points. You need at least 25 points, to be diagnosed as a psychopath.
So she is not a psychopath.
Sure I'm missing quite some information, and I haven't given too much of proof, simply because 20 facets is quite a lot, so if you want more quotes for a single facet, just ask and I will search for more proof.
You are also free to do a diagnosis by yourself, or at least show the difference to mine.
Also keep in mind: You can't just cherrypick something and call her a psychopath. She either fits into the majority of those mentioned facets, or she doesn't.
You call other ppl fanatics, while you act very aggressive as well and demanding valid counterarguments, while your own arguments lack proof? (You were not starting a discussion like "Is yen a psycho? Yes or no?" Instead you stated it as a fact.)
not a single proof is given here. Again, your words seem to be not open for discussion, stating them as facts. But a fact without proof is not a fact but a claim.
Nice one, you bring a counterargument and call it inconsistency, so that any other counterarguments I might bring are nothing more than a proof to your inconsistency claim?
But enough of that. Your main argument is: "Yennefer is a psychopath", so let's just use the Psychopathy Checklist by Robert D. Hare which is used for
a Diagnosis. It contains 20 factors that are rated with either 0 (does not apply), 1 (partial match or mixed information) and 2 (reasonably good match).
To be diagnosed as a psychopatch you need to get at least 25 out of 40 points. (For more info and source: wikipedia and/or google)
So lets do it:
Facet 1: Interpersonal
Glibness/superficial charm
She has depth, she just doesn't show it to everyone, then again, all sorcereresses use magic to reform their usually deformed bodies,
so there is some superficial charm here, let's give 1 point.
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Well, she is one of the more powerful sorceresses, used to advise kings and such, but yeah 2 points here.
Pathological lying
nope, definitely not. Take for example her scene with Ciri in the books,
were she demands sincerity from Ciri - but also grants sincerity to her in return, which she proves by answering Ciris very personal question.
Also before that in the short story Ice Shard were she doesn't lie to geralt about her relationship with the other sorcerer.
btw. don't confuse the occasional lie with pathological lying, so 0 points here
Cunning/manipulative
she is cunning and can be very manipulative (as basically every sorcerer/ess), so 2 points
Facet 2: Affective
Lack of remorse or guilt
to quote the answer I mentioned beforehand
So she can feel remorse, also she laters admits, that she made a grave mistake by taking Ciri to the council at Thanedd, I can't find the quote as of now, but can deliver it if is really necessary.
Then again there are situations were she feels no guilt, like the garden scene or the mask of ouroboros in the game, so 1 point.
Emotionally shallow
I could quote until the thread has reached it's maximum lenght
I give you two, if you need more, just ask.
so 0 points here
Callous/lack of empathy
I admit I am missing examples here, I will check later for more information, for now let's give her 1 point.
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
0 points can't be clearer. Take the garden scene for example, were she fully takes the blame for what she had done, taking any responsibilty from geralt.
Sometimes her actions are questionable of course, but the never lacks of taking the resonsibility for it.
Facet 3: Lifestyle
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
honestly? No idea about that. I don't think that she ever needed outside stimulation to act, she usually takes the initiative, but not enough information here, so 1 point.
Parasitic lifestyle
She has her own income, is independent (for example she used to sell magical stuff in her Home at Vengerberg), nothing parasitic here. 0 points.
Lack of realistic, long-term goals
she is exremely persistent in reaching her set goals, like finding Ciri in the games. I will try to find mor einformation about her life goals in general so 1 points as of now.
Impulsivity
She has her moments of Impulsivity, yes, but usually she acts very consciously (for example while talking to the emperor), but yeah 1 point here.
Irresponsibility
Same as above, she usually acts consiously and responsible but sometimes she acts first and thinks of the consquences later, so 1 point
Facet 4: Antisocial
Poor behavioral controls
0 points, she acts controlled in almost all scenes (in the games and the book)
Controlling your behavior is important to her, she also expects it in others.
Early behavioral problems
Not much is known about her youth. We know that she tried to kill herself, because she couldn't take the abuse any longer that she suffered as a (disformed) child. But she turned out to be the best student in her class so, can't give her more then 1 point here.
Juvenile delinquency
Revocation of conditional release
Criminal versatility
again not much is known about her past, but she never was in jail, as far as we know, and is also no criminal. (well at least in the common sense, there are people who call sorceresses criminal in general)
let's give her 1 point in each segment, since we don't have more accurate information here.
Others:
Many short-term marital relationships
Other then Geralt, only one relationships is known, with the mage Istredd, she probably has some lovers during their "off time" but that's it (and absolutely normal), 0 points
Promiscuous sexual behavior
Some of the sorceresses are know to by nymphomaniacs, but Yennefer is not described as one, though she does have a liking for...let's say unsual lovemaking so 1 point.
so thats 16/40 points. You need at least 25 points, to be diagnosed as a psychopath.
So she is not a psychopath.
Sure I'm missing quite some information, and I haven't given too much of proof, simply because 20 facets is quite a lot, so if you want more quotes for a single facet, just ask and I will search for more proof.
You are also free to do a diagnosis by yourself, or at least show the difference to mine.
Also keep in mind: You can't just cherrypick something and call her a psychopath. She either fits into the majority of those mentioned facets, or she doesn't.
You see, you say that my arguments lack proof before even trying to understand my arguments. Then you suggest to vote to determine if Yen is a psycho? Are you aware that "psycho" stands for psychotic and it's a completely different condition than being a psychopath? Psychotic characters are lacking touch with reality (i.e hallucinating), while psychopaths are people who lack empathy and compassion. Do you understand the difference between the two?
We're dealing with fictional character. Of course there will be inconsistencies. In fiction you can depict a sadistic serial killer as a loving and caring father. It doesn't mean that such people exist in reality. That's why we're looking on the big picture.
I'm glad that you bothered and actually went through the list, let's go through it again, this time without making mistakes:
Here you didn't understand the term. It has nothing to do about "depth" or visual looks. Superficial charm is the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick and verbally facile. Definitely 2 points.
Indeed.
Pathological lying doesn't mean that such the person won't demand from others to be honest, actually quite the opposite. Liars ALWAYS demand others to be honest. They always lie in the situations where they will have repercussions. In case of telling to Geralt, she was loosing nothing, and she, probably, wanted to annoy him intentionally to make a point. Pathological liars are usually so good at lying that without knowing the hard facts yourself you won't be able to determine whether they are telling the truth or not. They have no problems passing tests on polygraphs lying all the way through, which is why polygraph is considered an unreliable instrument. She definitely lies when it's convenient for her. At least 1 point.
Indeed.
We cannot see if she feels remorse. She tell whatever is convenient at the moment. Admitting mistake is admitting negative consequences, which has nothing to do with feeling remorse, which is a mental state. In situation with the mask and in the garden it's clear that she doesn't care and don't feel guilty. So, here we have strong 2 points.
Emotional shallowness is not what your examples are about. Due to lack of empathy, psychopaths are keeping their cool in very quite stressful situations. All their emotions are self-centered therefore other people perceive them as emotionally shallow or 'cool'. She was referred at least one time as an "Ice Queen", which is exactly what emotional shallowness is. 2 points.
The way she was dealing with Skjall's spirit, priestess in the grove, and the druid are the perfect example of callousness and lack of empathy. 2 points
Sure
Haven't been described, unknown. Let's even give 0.
Parasitic lifestyle refers to the fact that psychopaths prefer to delegate work to other people rather than do that themselves, which is why the most popular occupation for psychopaths are managers of all ranks and heads of corporations. The way she is bossing witchers in Kaer Morhen provides here at least 1 point.
Being persistent in certain task and having long term goals are two different things. Finding Ciri is a short term immediate goal. Did she express plans for Ciri after finding her? No. But ok, let's give only 1 point here.
Did you try arguing with her in Kaer Morhen? First time she sends you flying over the lake by teleport and the second time she threatens you with death. 2 points
Dealing with the mask and the garden shows that she is irresponsible, she doesn't care about consequences. 2 points.
She was unnecessarily rude to priestesses. What she's expecting of others has nothing to do with her own behaviour. But sure let's give her 0.
Unknown and not applicable.
Criminal versatility has nothing to do with sitting in jail. In medieval times it was easier to get on the gallows anyway. What this trait means is when the person cannot achieve something she wants by usual methods she resorts to criminal alternative. Yen couldn't get the mask, she decided to steal it. 2 points.
This is really irrelevant because sorceresses don't marry usually.
Being promiscuous and being nymphomaniac is not the same. Far from the same. It's like liking a beer once in a while with friends and being an alcoholic. So, Yen is definitely promiscuous, 2 points.
What we have in the end: 23 points out of 32 due to some points are irrelevant (due to their modern applicability) or unknown. That's about 71.8%. 25 out of 40 is 62.5%.
So, she is a psychopath based upon known information about her.
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You are only using my own examples and twist them in anthoer direction, without giving your own examples.
Just because you act in a certain way once, for example because you are under enormous stress, doesn't mean that you usually act like that, though I do appreciate, that you correct some of my assumptions, since english is not my main language and thus some technical terms can be interpretated the wrong way.
I'm a mathematican hence my obssesion with proofs, but I'm also a Scientist, and that means I'm able to change my opinion if current evidence forces me to do so.
I said that I don't have much examples/informations, because searching proofs in 7 books takes it's time. But I also said, I will search for more information if you ask about more information, which you haven't. You also don't give much information, and often you give 2 points after one single example, often while ignoring the context.
So try to be way more precise with your argumentation and proofs, ask of more from me if you want, or just let this thread die.
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You're unhappy that I also used the standard psychopath checklist that you decided to bring up? Or that I found an evidence you brought up good enough to demonstrate my point? It was very clear that you're not familiar with some concepts from the list and I just corrected you.
Look up for another psychological phenomenon. It's called cognitive dissonance. It's about your reaction. Quote: "Dissonance is felt when people are confronted with information that is inconsistent with their beliefs. If the dissonance is not reduced by changing one's belief, the dissonance can result in restoring consonance through misperception, rejection or refutation of the information, seeking support from others who share the beliefs, and attempting to persuade others."
Very good, though I'd like to note that psychology is not exaсt science like mathematics. As a scientist first you have to understand in-depth the topic you're discussing, therefore, before getting into a search of evidence in the books for something you have only a vague idea of, it would be very scientific to study the subject itself first. Read about psychopaths to clearly understand what they are like in real life. Meet and communicate with at least one of them (you might even like them, because they are very charismatic due to their superficial charm), they are not really hard to find, you might even already know someone but just unaware that they are psychopaths. Psychopaths are not the people who go on murderous rampage, if this is the stereotype you imagine to yourself, psychopath is going to be murderous only if either she knows that she get away with it with no repercussions and she will have some justifiable gain in it, or if the psychopath is also psychotic or a "psycho", as it's often shortened. Psychopaths are very unpleasant if you either work for them or live with them, but when people don't deal with them directly for prolonged period of time they tend to like, adore, and even glorify psychopaths. For politicians, being a psychopath is almost a job requirement (yes, in your country too).
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Very interest analysis and it ties in a way to what I wrote in another post.
Getting back on topic, Geralt makes a final plea to the woman he loves as they are about to leave him tied to the bed:
“Triss/Yennefer please, you have to understand, my mind is a fucking mess, and it would be a lie to said that don’t consider each of you very dear to me. Triss/Yen, you have to believe me, it was never my intention to hurt you.
I know I did wrong, but you Triss, abused my lack of memories/Yennefer, never looked for me, so you can’t say you are blameless.
So yes, I acted like a prick and maybe I deserve this, but I was so focused on the search for Ciri, that the thought that any of you might leave if I said the wrong things, I didn’t want to lose you. And I needed you. I still need you.
So fine, if that’s this is what it takes to make you understand, then fuck the consequences, Triss/Yennefer, I love you, only you and nobody else. Yennefer/Triss, forgive me, I should have never said those things to you when I didn’t truly meant them.
Triss/Yennefer, I know you are pissed right, but when you have a moment, think about the future we talked about. I still want it, and I think you do still-“
Women: “Bullshit” and both leave.
Sigi opens a secret door in the wall and enters the room: “At least you tried mate.”
G: “What the fuck Djisktra!”
S: “Did I ever tell about the time I tried to bang both Phillipa and Cynthia?”
G: “No and I don’t care, get out.”
S: “See I walked into one of their little sessions... Turn around Geralt”
G:”I’m tied to the fucking bed.”
S;”I see, don’t mind me” Opens secret door again and goes into hiding.
Getting back on topic, Geralt makes a final plea to the woman he loves as they are about to leave him tied to the bed:
“Triss/Yennefer please, you have to understand, my mind is a fucking mess, and it would be a lie to said that don’t consider each of you very dear to me. Triss/Yen, you have to believe me, it was never my intention to hurt you.
I know I did wrong, but you Triss, abused my lack of memories/Yennefer, never looked for me, so you can’t say you are blameless.
So yes, I acted like a prick and maybe I deserve this, but I was so focused on the search for Ciri, that the thought that any of you might leave if I said the wrong things, I didn’t want to lose you. And I needed you. I still need you.
So fine, if that’s this is what it takes to make you understand, then fuck the consequences, Triss/Yennefer, I love you, only you and nobody else. Yennefer/Triss, forgive me, I should have never said those things to you when I didn’t truly meant them.
Triss/Yennefer, I know you are pissed right, but when you have a moment, think about the future we talked about. I still want it, and I think you do still-“
Women: “Bullshit” and both leave.
Sigi opens a secret door in the wall and enters the room: “At least you tried mate.”
G: “What the fuck Djisktra!”
S: “Did I ever tell about the time I tried to bang both Phillipa and Cynthia?”
G: “No and I don’t care, get out.”
S: “See I walked into one of their little sessions... Turn around Geralt”
G:”I’m tied to the fucking bed.”
S;”I see, don’t mind me” Opens secret door again and goes into hiding.
I came to this quest as well under false assumptions. The quest makes sense from a story perspective but having played one too many Bioware games I was left with the false assumption that "at some point they will both confront me and make me choose one or the other"... not quite the case.
Instead of blaming yourself Geralt, Blame Bioware for their handling of romance.
Instead of blaming yourself Geralt, Blame Bioware for their handling of romance.
FULL SPOILER
the way i fully see is that it was a huge plot hole. when i did the personal quest of yen, i choose the option of "i love you" because the other option was very heartless. base of all the stuff that happen between yen and geralt. i refused to believe that all those moments they had was because of the spell that was bound into the two of them, when yen offer geralt to have an intimate moment , i refused because i was expecting geralt to have a conversation on why he didn't want it to have sex with her and not just make the assumption that he just wanted to spend time with the boys.
the romance was not taken in much consideration at all:
-you get to pick triss on the Beginning and never touch the topic till the ending
-you get to pick yen on the middle of the game and and can choose not to touch the topic till the end.
in conclusion, there should have been more quests related to the romances of yen and triss.
the way i fully see is that it was a huge plot hole. when i did the personal quest of yen, i choose the option of "i love you" because the other option was very heartless. base of all the stuff that happen between yen and geralt. i refused to believe that all those moments they had was because of the spell that was bound into the two of them, when yen offer geralt to have an intimate moment , i refused because i was expecting geralt to have a conversation on why he didn't want it to have sex with her and not just make the assumption that he just wanted to spend time with the boys.
the romance was not taken in much consideration at all:
-you get to pick triss on the Beginning and never touch the topic till the ending
-you get to pick yen on the middle of the game and and can choose not to touch the topic till the end.
in conclusion, there should have been more quests related to the romances of yen and triss.