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Immersion and plate armour (Spoilers - don't read if you've played less than 1 hour of TW 2)

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V

Venethor

Forum regular
#1
Dec 6, 2013
Immersion and plate armour (Spoilers - don't read if you've played less than 1 hour of TW 2)

One of the coolest things about the Witcher universe is the modest, realistic design of weapons and armour. This really brought some immersion because everything looked real and functional. There were no spiked pauldrons, horned helmets or swords the size of houses. I'm a sucker for immersion and in most cases immersion and realism/credibility are inexstricably linked. I've enjoyed plenty of games that weren't realistic or didn't look realistic but the immersion just wasn't there. Thus I was terribly disapoointed, yet not surprised, to find that the plate armour in the Witcher 2 only has aesthetic purposes. To defeat your heavily armoured man-at-arms all you need do is bash his head with your sword - this I do not care for at all :/

I can see why it might be an unavoidable issue in the combat system, and I can live with that, but when plate armour is portrayed as utterly useless in cutscenes too that's something else entirely. Within the first hour of the game you see plate armoured having the same protective value as butter. When charging La Vallette Castle there's one man-at-arms stabbing right through his opponent's stomach, even though it's protected by a cuirass, and the sword goes straight through him even though the angle is so bad that even the strongest of blows would have been redirected and done no real damage. Then we get to fight Aryan (This might be one of the reasons I always let him live)and should we decide to kill him we get an awkward scene where, in the end, Geralt stabs him through the chest ... through plate armour. What's the point of acquiring a suit of armour that's very expensive and laborious to make if it does nothing to stop blows? The last example is in Vergen where Prince Stennis is literally beaten to death with shit-covered sticks. This could work as he's not wearing a helmet but no matter where he's struck, on his torse too, we get these odd splat-noises.

Don't get me wrong, TW 1 and TW 2 are my favourite games but there's always room for improvement and adressing aforementioned issue in TW 3 be awesome.

Here's two ideas I'd like to see implemented.

1. Make specific anti-plate finishers that we can use when killing off stunned men-at-arms. Geralt could knock over his opponent, grab his dagger and stab through the visor, he could deliver a murder stroke with the pommel or quillons or he could strike his opponents face with aard thus opening the visor and then stab him in the face or elegantly slicing his throat with his sword. These are just a few examples but I'd love to see something like this.
2. Heavily armoured opponents can only be killed when and if they're A: stunned (you can stun them by using aard or by simply hitting them - the latter is unrealistic but you could make it work), B: thrown off or into something with aard or C: hit with igni. I like this idea because it would force you to adapt dynamically to changes on the battlefield and you'd have to think tactically. For example, you might need to kill off the lightly armoured opponents before commencing a rather long finisher-animation that might leave you exposed.

So far I haven't really given TW 1 and 2 too much credit for their amazing work so let me just finish by saying that I LOVED the sound effects in TW 2. Even though the plate armour didn't make opponents fight differently I got goosebumps from listening to the sound of the plates clanging whenever I struck an opponent or whenever men-at-arms were just walking around. Kudos, more of that please. And again, TW 1 and 2 are my favourite games so please don't take the criticism the wrong way.
 
S

steelydan

Rookie
#2
Dec 6, 2013
I see your point, stabbing through plate armor with minimal effort feels unrealistic and wrong, but at least plate armors looked like a real thing.

It seems like in this area wither 3 lacks a bit compared to its predecessor. I mean look at this awful official armor. Spandex tight mail and chain pauldrons!? Give me a break. And its not some substitute armor for testing purposes, you can see it in a official CG trailer.
I don't know why CDPR is neglecting one of the strongest points of TW2. Maybe a person responsible for armor designs left the team or something.
 
Kinley

Kinley

Ex-moderator
#3
Dec 6, 2013
Steelydan said:
It seems like in this area wither 3 lacks a bit compared to its predecessor. I mean look at this awfull official armor. Spandex tight mail and chain pauldrons!? Give me a break. And its not some substitute armor for testing purposes, you can see it in a official CG trailer.
I don't know why CDPR is neglecting one of the strongest points of TW2. Maybe a person responsible for armor designs left the team or something.
Click to expand...


Doesn't look like spandex to me.

EDIT:
Then again, now we have people saying Geralt looks too bulky, you can never win, it seems...
 
F

FoggyFishburne

Banned
#4
Dec 6, 2013
Hey! Would you look at that. A poster that includes a spoiler tag in the thread title. Much appreciated :)

Anyway! This is a very interesting thread. Kudos for your attention to detail. It's a disconnect that I honestly had never really considered. Mind you, the reason I haven't is because "it's just a game". There has to be a game underneath all that "realistic" pragmatical armours.

But no. I'm wrong. You're right. There SHOULD be a difference. After all, why design some enemies with armour if it doesn't matter. Waste of resources and time. Mind you, the difference between a simple peasant spearwielder and a knight doesn't necessarily have to be in terms of health, poise or resistance to damage. Different patterns of attack AND different ways to take down the two enemies is enough to distinguish the two. Though it would be nice if one enemy type does in fact have more health, poise etc. in order to highlight that his armour is indeed not only for aesthetics but has a practical function as well.

There's a balance to be struck between "can't pierce a cuirass" and implementing the correct game design to reflect the added armour. I don't think that bashing a knight in the head to kill him is wrong or unimmersive. Partly because it's unreasonable to request complete and utter realistic depiction of medieval combat. Realism does not equal good game design. And partly because, well, not everyone is an expert in medieval warfare and equipment. I don't know what the appropriate counter would be to that. And neither should it be required that I know.

All the game has to do is establish that plate wearing enemies are tougher and require a specific attack pattern to take down. Your suggestions are awesome. I don't know, I'm losing myself now. Long post and I'm losing track of my own thoughts. Great thread, hopefully RED will add some much needed depth to TW3 in terms of attack patterns.

Also, I hope they change the way vigor works. Right now, vigor is depleted when using signs but that means you'll be doing less damage with your sword. I don't like that. It forces the player to use a sign, then back off, or simply just use the sword exclusively. Like me. Those two systems should use their own gauges but I digress.
 
eskiMoe

eskiMoe

Mentor
#5
Dec 6, 2013
Kinl3y said:
Click to expand...
Am I the only one who thinks the armor designs thus far have been a bit disappointing? Not saying they should be as flashy as in TW2. I actually think they would be a bit out of place in the TW3's less colorful, more atmospheric style.

But that armor just looks a bit odd. And ugly :p
 
Kinley

Kinley

Ex-moderator
#6
Dec 6, 2013
eskiMoe said:
Am I the only one who thinks the armor designs thus far have been a bit disappointing? Not saying they should be as flashy as in TW2. I actually think they would be a bit out of place in the TW3's less colorful, more atmospheric style.

But that armor just looks a bit odd. And ugly
Click to expand...
Compared to the first armor reveal for W3 this one is way better imo. I agree that W3 armor design is not as flashy as W2's (and it could use a bit of that, let's be honest), but I must admit I like the realistic look of this one in particular.
 
Garrison72

Garrison72

Mentor
#7
Dec 6, 2013
Kinl3y said:
Compared to the first armor reveal for W3 this one is way better imo. I agree that W3 armor design is not as flashy as W2's (and it could use a bit of that, let's be honest), but I must admit I like the realistic look of this one in particular.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with it as long as they have some sleeker leather armors like the previous games had. So far, what they've shown has been quite bulky, with heavy materials.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#8
Dec 6, 2013
Personally, I like both sets of armour we've seen so far more than the ones in TW2, they're closer to what Geralt was wearing in the first game (the first armour we saw was basically TW1 Geralt's armour with extra chainmail bits added). They seem a bit too bulky for a warrior that relies mainly on his agility though.

Anyway, I suppose we should go back on topic.
 
Daywalker30

Daywalker30

Senior user
#9
Dec 6, 2013
eskiMoe said:
Am I the only one who thinks the armor designs thus far have been a bit disappointing? Not saying they should be as flashy as in TW2. I actually think they would be a bit out of place in the TW3's less colorful, more atmospheric style
Click to expand...
We have only seen 2 armors ingame and I think it's quite too soon to be dissapointed yet or not?
 
V

Venethor

Forum regular
#10
Dec 6, 2013
Try and keep it relevant to the thread please. I'm quite sure the armour sets in TW 3 have already been discussed at length. I, personally, would much rather hear what you think about the issues and ideas presented in the first post :/
 
V

val.mitev

Senior user
#11
Dec 6, 2013
VictorHarder said:
Try and keep it relevant to the thread please. I'm quite sure the armour sets in TW 3 have already been discussed at length. I, personally, would much rather hear what you think about the issues and ideas presented in the first post :/
Click to expand...
I like your ideas, it would be great if the fighting against different kinds of opponents is further differentiated.

You can just bash a peasant in rags, any cut will be deadly. But an opponent in chain mail should require more work and precision.
But here lies the problem, you can't target specific limbs or parts of the body. Like going for the joints or the throat.
That was the case in the first 2 games at least. I'm waiting for more info for the combat mechanics in W3, because as it was pointed out, realistic does not always translate into good gameplay.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#12
Dec 6, 2013
I agree with the OP, you don't just go through both sides of a plate armour and a body with a sword:



Probably something closer to what we can see in this trailer at around 1:15 would be better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvZJ5l7VHoo

Precise cuts at unprotected parts.
 
eskiMoe

eskiMoe

Mentor
#13
Dec 6, 2013
Daywalker30 said:
We have only seen 2 armors ingame and I think it's quite too soon to be dissapointed yet or not?
Click to expand...
Just stating my concerns. Like I said:

Daywalker30 said:
Am I the only one who thinks the armor designs thus far have been a bit disappointing?
Click to expand...
 
V

val.mitev

Senior user
#14
Dec 6, 2013
It sound good on paper, but if anyone could be killed with a single slice to the throat, it will be instant kills all around and will not be very interesting.
Maybe it could require to anticipate a particular moment, or block/parry/feint and then try to strike and then it could depend on stats for example.
Or of course it could be just some nice finishing animations, without stabbing through the mail. :)
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#15
Dec 6, 2013
den1al said:
It sound good on paper, but if anyone could be killed with a single slice to the throat, it will be instant kills all around and will not be very interesting.
Maybe it could require to anticipate a particular moment, or block/parry/feint and then try to strike and then it could depend on stats for example.
Or of course it could be just some nice finishing animations, without stabbing through the mail. :)
Click to expand...
I think we're talking about finishers/cutscenes, not gameplay.

As the OP said:

I can see why it might be an unavoidable issue in the combat system, and I can live with that, but when plate armour is portrayed as utterly useless in cutscenes too that's something else entirely
Click to expand...
 
Aver

Aver

Forum veteran
#16
Dec 6, 2013
ReptilePZ said:
I agree with the OP, you don't just go through both sides of a plate armour and a body with a sword:
Click to expand...
Unless you are inhumanly strong mutant with sword made out of space alloy sharpened by Gnomes in their extremely hi-tech forges. Just sayin'
 
KingHochmeister

KingHochmeister

Forum veteran
#17
Dec 6, 2013
Still ... How Geralt pulls out swords from his back also makes no sense, lol :p/>/>


Still, epic games, epic lore :)/>/>
 
V

Venethor

Forum regular
#18
Dec 6, 2013
Aver said:
Unless you are inhumanly strong mutant with sword made out of space alloy sharpened by Gnomes in their extremely hi-tech forges. Just sayin'
Click to expand...
The sword Geralt starts with is simply called "longsword". In the sewers of La Vallette Castle you can loot a sword that's better. That implies that Geralt's first sword is just a regular one and even if that weren't the case it is worth noticing that Geralt also stabs Aryan with his own sword, which we assume isn't fashioned from meteorite ore, right? Even with Geralt's strength and speed stabbing through the armour like that would be impossible, and even if it had indeed been possible it's just plain stupid as Aryan's head is completely unprotected.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#19
Dec 6, 2013
Aver said:
Unless you are inhumanly strong mutant with sword made out of space alloy sharpened by Gnomes in their extremely hi-tech forges. Just sayin'
Click to expand...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc&feature=player_detailpage&t=136

Just sayin'.
 

Beestonian

Guest
#20
Dec 6, 2013
I make this point when referring to the logistics of ridiculous female armor, and I'll make this point here.

You have geralt shooting fire out of his fingers, blood curses that cause ghosts to roam battlefields, mind-controlled dragons, teleportation and spectral riders that kidnap people. And you're worried about mutant Witchers being able to stab through plate armor?
 
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