Immersion Breaking

[Aes Sídhe]

This thread just shows how some hate it, some love it.... a fairly polarised debate you'll find on any game forum. Fallout 3 handled the situation well, pick a perk and see all the weirdness, dont want to see dont pick.

Restrict eggs to a certain format, tag that format with a visible / invisible toggle, provide checkbox under options. Simples !

 

[Cs__sz__r]

I'm pretty sure you mean F:NV. The Wild Wasteland trait?

 

[secondchildren]

This thread just shows how some hate it, some love it.... a fairly polarised debate you'll find on any game forum. Fallout 3 handled the situation well, pick a perk and see all the weirdness, dont want to see dont pick.

Restrict eggs to a certain format, tag that format with a visible / invisible toggle, provide checkbox under options. Simples ! />

My 2 cents:

According to the definition of easter egg, it should be a hint or a reference hidden or subtle, not splashed in the face of the player. In fact, imho, Tw1 easter eggs were pretty subtle and not accessible to everyone. For example, on Vizima Dike you can hear a fisher whistling the Imperial March, but how many player could recognize in the ruined church concept of Vizima cemetary a XIX cen painting by C.D. Friedrich? Or Paolo Uccello's affresco of St George killing the dragon, on the wall of Kaer Morhen?

In W2 easter eggs are not subtle at all. Concerning especially those references about Lotr, I wouldn't call them "easter eggs" but more likely plain jokes or simply references. One of the reason why I didn't appreciate them at all (especially in the mouth of Iorveth, an elf... how original). And there's then Radagast, Arwen, Balin's journal and Moria, that piece of lembas.... a little too much imo.

But to be honest, the list of easter eggs in W2 is not limited to Lotr and it's much better.

/2 cents

 

[Eldanon]

Goodness, no... I loved the humor that's thrown around the game. All the LOTR references were pure gold. When I'm playing a game, I in no way ever forget that I am in fact a human being playing a computer game, references to other games don't bother me in the least.

As a matter of fact - PLEASE disregard just about all suggestions people post on these boards and go with your gut, CDPR, you'll make far better decisions that majority of people on these boards (including me).

 

[wichat]

Goodness, no... I loved the humor that's thrown around the game. All the LOTR references were pure gold. When I'm playing a game, I in no way ever forget that I am in fact a human being playing a computer game, references to other games don't bother me in the least.

As a matter of fact - PLEASE disregard just about all suggestions people post on these boards and go with your gut, CDPR, you'll make far better decisions that majority of people on these boards (including me).

YEEEEEESSSS! Never lose your sense of humour, CDPR, please!!

 

[Aes Sídhe]

As a matter of fact - PLEASE disregard just about all suggestions people post on these boards and go with your gut, CDPR, you'll make far better decisions that majority of people on these boards (including me).

Heheh, remove the "just" and you've got a maxim to live by !

(though not CDPRs... I believe they don't ignore the suggestions, but know the right weight to give them in the grander scheme of things)

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

Breaking immersion as a joke does not really fit serious RPGs, at least not if you ask the serious players.
So I hope the people in charge and responsible for such jokes realizes that fact. Then they have a choice: To implement it anyway knowing that it will decrease the enjoyment of the game for players who tries to immerse or not implement it.

 

[GuyNwah]

RPGs taking themselves too seriously does not fit serious RPGs. While the gag references to Lord of the Rings may be closer to Captain Underpants than to Peter Pan in their lack of subtlety, romantic irony and breaking the fourth wall are legitimate means of storytelling. They are important in maintaining an air of skepticism toward the events being portrayed, of keeping the question "what am I really witnessing?" in our minds. Sapkowski himself uses them heavily.

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

RPGs taking themselves too seriously does not fit serious RPGs. While the gag references to Lord of the Rings may be closer to Captain Underpants than to Peter Pan in their lack of subtlety, romantic irony and breaking the fourth wall are legitimate means of storytelling. They are important in maintaining an air of skepticism toward the events being portrayed, of keeping the question "what am I really witnessing?" in our minds. Sapkowski himself uses them heavily.

In some cases, yes, but don't you think that unless its clearly communicated in the "contract" between "storyteller" and "audience", such Verfremdung have no place in games that otherwise rewards the player when immersing themselves in the story and setting of the game. Games that allows for such immersion allows the player to question him-/herself "what is really going on here" - in the game world (because paying attention to details rewards the player with not only a coherent world, but also information on how things relate to one another). The type of Verfremdung we see in W2, on the other hand, does answer the question: What am I really witnessing? With: "a videogame" Just as Geralt would do if he - when answering a question - said: "How should I know, I am not Einstein" or (even more extreme) "I'm just a videogame character". As I, and many other players, identify the Witcher games as immersive games, such types of references only has a damaging effect on our enjoyment of the game, and should therefore be avoided. Other types of more subtle references, that keeps themselves within the narrative framework of the game (like for example Geralt saying "I should go") are fine and therefore preferable.

 

[GuyNwah]

I don't agree, but at the point where you say you do not want Verfremdung in the game, ever, and I say there is a time and place for it, it becomes such a question of taste that it cannot be debated profitably. I don't find being "immersive" and nothing more a suitable quality for a game of high standard. But I am as usual in the minority.

Something like "I should go" is not an example of anything; that is merely the sort of utterance that a normal person who talks to himself from time to time would make.

Something like the opening scene from Lady of the Lake

Spoiler

where Galahad encounters Ciri and promptly mistakes her for a character from his own legend

would, however, be entirely in place.

"REALISM, n. The art of depicting nature as it is seen by toads. The charm suffusing a landscape painted by a mole, or a story written by a measuring-worm." [Bierce]

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

I don't agree, but at the point where you say you do not want Verfremdung in the game, ever, and I say there is a time and place for it, it becomes such a question of taste that it cannot be debated profitably. I don't find being "immersive" and nothing more a suitable quality for a game of high standard. But I am as usual in the minority.

Something like "I should go" is not an example of anything; that is merely the sort of utterance that a normal person who talks to himself from time to time would make.

Something like the opening scene from Lady of the Lake

Spoiler

where Galahad encounters Ciri and promptly mistakes her for a character from his own legend

would, however, be entirely in place.

"REALISM, n. The art of depicting nature as it is seen by toads. The charm suffusing a landscape painted by a mole, or a story written by a measuring-worm." [Bierce]

"I should go" would of course be coupled with
"Geralt.
-Zoltan"

..or something for the reference to have some type of effect as reference (to Mass effect in this case).

Where something fits/not fits is contextual and a matter of style. Most of us know that Sapkowski does incorporate certain things from other stories to his own mythos - its part of his style. These things are a part of the Witcher universe, or mulitiverse or whatever.

But what we are talking about here is the games, what is communicated, narrative grammar and consistency.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

According to the definition of easter egg, it should be a hint or a reference hidden or subtle, not splashed in the face of the player.

Actually, that's my understanding of the phenomenon too, but I guess the fact its decreasingly adhered to is a consequence of its misuse in exactly the way described. Well, language is mutable after all, changes with the times, and we may simply have to accept the wider definition to include jokes.

To be honest, and I can't explain this deeply, I simply have never encountered an "immersion breaking" moment in a game. To some degree I manage my own gaming, my own subjective experience, in such a way that the problem simply never occurs.

So I don't care, or at least I didn't until this thread... now I desperately want to see a Guy N'wah eggy NPC who appears and refutes a seemingly impervious prevailing argument or paradigm with an apparently effortless line of reasoning.

Oh and btw, always remember: Storytellers LIE !

 

[pomor]

In fact, imho, Tw1 easter eggs were pretty subtle and not accessible to everyone. For example, on Vizima Dike you can hear a fisher whistling the Imperial March

That was one side of the coin. But TW1 had also Hermit talking about da Vinci Code. Or private investigator Raymond Maarloeve. Do you hated it as well?

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

That was one side of the coin. But TW1 had also Hermit talking about da Vinci Code. Or private investigator Raymond Maarloeve. Do you hated it as well?

I kinda reacted like Zemalf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=V7PQYVDCgg0&list=SPD59876DB5D6FF8A3#t=1831s

 

[secondchildren]

To be honest, and I can't explain this deeply, I simply have never encountered an "immersion breaking" moment in a game. To some degree I manage my own gaming, my own subjective experience, in such a way that the problem simply never occurs.

It is personal I think and not only. I think that your own education, knowledge, sensitivity plays an important role. Don't misunderstand me please, I'm not saying that those Lotr jokes were immersion breaking for me. Just I found it a bit out of context, but that's my personal opinion as I said. Possibly becoz I'm a stubborn nerdy Lotr addicted (the book, not the movie) and I'd rather not to see a reference thrown in that way in the game, and especially on Iorveth path.

Minor issue, anyway. As I said, W2 easter eggs are numberous and beyond Lotr. Assassin's Creed easter egg was funny and there are lot spread through the game, subtle and less subtle. ^^

So I don't care, or at least I didn't until this thread... now I desperately want to see a Guy N'wah eggy NPC who appears and refutes a seemingly impervious prevailing argument or paradigm with an apparently effortless line of reasoning. />/>

And you're right not caring. Your love of the game shouldn't be influenced by anyone or anything. Just enjoy and screw the rest

That was one side of the coin. But TW1 had also Hermit talking about da Vinci Code. Or private investigator Raymond Maarloeve. Do you hated it as well?

I think you're misunderstand me, never said that I hate them. On the contrary, I ADORE Tw1 easter eggs. I contributed a lot creating that list on WWiki.
Actually I contributed on W2 easter eggs list either. All those about Lotr are mine (especially Balin's journal, Petra Silie, Anezka, Daerdin..).

 

[vongraudenz]

Even a serious RPG can have few jokes in it. It doesn't have to be serious all the time, and if those jokes take the form of Easter Eggs so be it, even if they are are overly obvious sometimes.

 

[Randomdrowner2015]

Even a serious RPG can have few jokes in it. It doesn't have to be serious all the time, and if those jokes take the form of Easter Eggs so be it, even if they are are overly obvious sometimes.

Agreed on everything except the last part.
If things are not integrated properly, you will just have a weak link.
For those of you who have played the citadel DLC for mass effect 3, there are plenty of content in it where they successfully pulls of the art of referencing without compromising the integrity of the storytelling or immersion (even though they play it awfully close sometimes).

 

[CrowPath.948]

I agree with vonGraudenz, I don't mind a few throwaway jokes here and there as long as they're not involved in the real meat of the game's interactions. But if people have knowledge outside of their persona ("Cosplayers!") or when the main plot leads to an excuse being made for a reference made between main characters, I take exception: [media]http://youtu.be/YrmrmzvLy6A[/media]

I guess my problem is down to atmosphere; I'm holding the Witcher series up with the STALKER games in terms of this. Borderlands 2 was mentioned earlier in the thread and was my favourite game of last year, but these kind of direct references make sense in the context of that game's style.