In game character Perspective!

[kofeiiniturpa]

By the same token, plenty of TPS games handle shooting very well, but FPS games tend to handle it better.

It's a common notion, yeah. But can you explain why exactly moving the crosshair in first person is - allegedly - better than moving it in third person? What's specifically the "better" of it and why, if it is an objective claim?

Afterall, most of the times you use the exact same controls and often even the same tactics with both, the experience is mechanically almost the same.

 

[Snowflakez]

Depends what you mean by "very well". I would say that there are no TPS games that handle it very well and a couple that do okay.

GTA V's shooting handles shooting fantastically, so not sure quite what you mean in that regard. The Ghost Recon games are also great. The Division handled it well. Gears of War, too.

I would say all of these shooting mechanics are handled "very well," but maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, since its tough to look at it completely objectively.

Melee in Vermintide feels fantastic (both games), melee in the Dead Island games also feels and plays well, and of course, KCD is a good example.

Granted, games that implement excellent first person melee are much fewer (in my opinion) than games that have above-average TPS.

It's a common notion, yeah. But can you explain why exactly moving the crosshair in first person is - allegedly - better than moving it in third person? What's specifically the "better" of it and why, if it is an objective claim?

Afterall, most of the times you use the exact same controls and often even the same tactics with both, the experience is mechanically almost the same.

It's not an objective claim. If I said otherwise at some point, that's my bad, because I don't actually feel that way.

First person shooters tend to eliminate the visual "noise" associated with the camera getting caught on objects, and your character blocking your vision. So there can be a certain level of disconnect between what your character should be seeing and what you see.

Furthermore, you can more easily aim at targets that are much closer to you (it can be a huge pain in the butt to fire at somebody who is right in front of you with TPS in some games, not all though).

Also, sound effects are generally a bit more realistic in first person. Again, not always, but games that have good sound design can allow you to hear footsteps and more easily tell where they're coming from.

All of this is subjective, and based on my personal experience and the experiences I've observed from others.

Honestly, though? TPS also offers a lot of benefits. Wider field of vision, the ability to see your character, the ability to see around corners, etc.

 

[Meccanical]

The differences between them is why I think them limiting the game to one or the other would be understandable. From a game design perspective, it's just more feasible to focus your design elements on one view.

That said, they could always mix the two perspectives by implementing them based on context, rather than allowing the player to switch at any time. However, who know what they are doing, they have already come up with their own solutions by now.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It's not an objective claim. If I said otherwise at some point, that's my bad, because I don't actually feel that way.

Just making sure, since it often tends to be said that way. As if it was irrefutable common knowledge.

First person shooters tend to eliminate the visual "noise" associated with the camera getting caught on objects, and your character blocking your vision.

...

Yeah I got that. The character blocking the vision is actually tied to how far the camera is pulled out and at what angle. Ironsights in FPS games block the view too.

But the question really was about the shooting itself. If we assume it's the most optimal scenario designwise (for both perspectives), that there's as little as possible on screen noise and stuck cameras and what ever. What's the thing that makes FPP better for shooting? What do you think?

Precision can't be an issue, since the cursor moves just the same either way. "Personal" feeling in FPP isn't part of combat and is subjective anyway. Seeing behind corners the character isn't looking with cameral panning can be designed away. And so on, you get the drift.

 

[Snowflakez]

Just making sure, since it often tends to be said that way. As if it was irrefutable common knowledge.



Yeah I got that. The character blocking the vision is actually tied to how far the camera is pulled out and at what angle. Ironsights in FPS games block the view too.

But the question really was about the shooting itself. If we assume it's the most optimal scenario designwise (for both perspectives), that there's as little as possible on screen noise and stuck cameras and what ever. What's the thing that makes FPP better for shooting? What do you think?

Precision can't be an issue, since the cursor moves just the same either way. "Personal" feeling in FPP isn't part of combat and is subjective anyway. Seeing behind corners the character isn't looking with cameral panning can be designed away. And so on, you get the drift.

I hear you. You make good points. I suppose I don't actually know what makes FPP superior outside of personal feelings. Maybe it's just that it's (arguably) the more common approach to take, and that has somehow reinforced the concept that its' the best approach for many people? Maybe Sardukhar could weigh in with his thoughts?

The only "real" difference between the two would be camera angles, I guess. I'm not sure how third person camera seeing around walls could be designed away, nor do I see why that would ever be necessary (it's just an inherent benefit of TPP, you see more of your environment).

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I hear you. You make good points. I suppose I don't actually know

Yes! I Won. I fucking won, I tell you!








Joking aside.... It's often just so easily thrown out there without any explanation, thought or analysis that "first person perspective is superior for shooting" and that's that, that's the consensus. And as you know, it's not just here. But - and I do have a tendency to overthink - like with turnbased mechanics and a load of other mechanics things, it's way too often throught through an existing bad example rather than a good one and even less looking forward and thinking one that'd be good. Sometimes It just feels that certain lines of thinking, certain tropes, that are stuck might need a bit more looking into as to why exactly it is that way, or if it actually is not. You know.

I don't know which is better, or if either is. To me personally the question of perspective is a nonissue as both can well be made to work to their end here in this games context and otherwise (no, I'm not going to bore you with longwinded imaginary gameplay examples). But it's an interesting thought, and if there is some kind of conclusion (rather than consensus), or even a serious discussion, it might broaden someones perspective and possibly birth new ideas.

Always question the commonly accepted notions as there's a good chance they're 'wrong'.

 

[Snowflakez]

Yes! I Won. I fucking won, I tell you!

I don't know which is better, or if either is. To me personally the question of perspective is a nonissue as both can well be made to work to their end here in this games context and otherwise (no, I'm not going to bore you with longwinded imaginary gameplay examples). But it's an interesting thought, and if there is some kind of conclusion (rather than consensus), or even a serious discussion, it might broaden someones perspective and possibly birth new ideas.

Always question the commonly accepted notions as there's a good chance they're 'wrong'.

This is why discussion is great! I would never have questioned the idea that "FPP is better for shooters" had you not given me logical reasons why that's not necessarily the case.

I wonder if marketing plays a role in it? For example, FPP is almost certainly cheaper to develop than TPP, as you don't (Generally) have to worry about high-quality, full-body character animations, hit reactions, cover animations, etc. Furthermore, FPP animations can largely stay the same from game to game (CoD and Far Cry, anyone?) and nobody will really notice. With a TPP game, people definitely notice. Even Skyrim, for all of its ugly animations, was an improvement over Oblivion in that regard.

So, with these cost differences in mind, it's possible publishers are really reinforcing the whole "Shooter = FPP" thing as a way to get the public to accept it as the norm.

Or maybe I'm also just overthinking it. You're rubbing off on me.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I wonder if marketing plays a role in it?

I'm sure they do. But it's more complicated than that. There's a load of interaction between marketing and design, what might work to what kind of audience and how that can be helped, that optimally should lead to the best solution. Usually it doesn't since marketing is profit first and not really for inventiveness... but anyway.

Or maybe I'm also just overthinking it. You're rubbing off on me.

Might be, but keep at it. At some point you'll notice that you're doing it and then you correct yourself with the experience you have and what knowledge or insight you've gained.

 

[Suhiira]

I don't know which is better, or if either is. To me personally the question of perspective is a nonissue as both can well be made to work to their end here in this games context and otherwise <clip>

That's really what it boils down to, there are advantages, and disadvantages, to both. "Good" or "Bad" really boils down to the amount of effort the developer puts in. And it's not that hard to have both as we've seen in many games, excluding one or the other is a matter of choice by developers not really a matter of time/money (YES ... it would take a little of both to do both ... but it's a fairly insignificant amount).

 

[linoano]

Depends what you mean by "very well". I would say that there are no TPS games that handle it very well and a couple that do okay.

Same for melee..although Kingdom Come Deliverance is making me a believer in First Person melee.

Anyway, yeah. As much as I enjoyed the combat in Watch Dogs, for example, it couldn't really hold a candle to games like FEAR or STALKER or Counterstrike in terms of adrenalin-inducing quarter-second decision making vidya game shoot combat.

Hell, the ability to safely look around corners alone changes the entire dynamic.

Kingdom Come Deliverance have a nice First Person melee combat, I agree. But I don't expect it for Cyberpunk 2077, completely different games... also, CP will be a shooter...

 

[Snowflakez]

Kingdom Come Deliverance have a nice First Person melee combat, I agree. But I don't expect it for Cyberpunk 2077, completely different games... also, CP will be a shooter...

Not a shooter, an RPG. We actually don't know anything about CP2077's combat system. We don't know how "RPG-like" it will be, nor do we know how "Shooter-like" it will be, or if it's something else entirely.

We'll find out in just over a month, though.

 

[SigilFey]

You know what had great FPP melee -- Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher's Bay. Not perfect, but really, really enjoyable.

 

[wisdom000]

Awesome, I still have a thread on the first page...

And I still think FPP is headache inducing cheap garbage...

 

[Suhiira]

Awesome, I still have a thread on the first page...
And I still think FPP is headache inducing cheap garbage...

The "Great Debate".
Everyone has their preference for in-game perspective, and people are still trying to convince others their opinion is "right".

Some things never change.

 

[wisdom000]

The "Great Debate".
Everyone has their preference for in-game perspective, and people are still trying to convince others their opinion is "right".

Some things never change.

If only they listened to reason, they would understand my opinion is always right....
​​​

 

[Suhiira]

If only they listened to reason, they would understand my opinion is always right....

Of course it is.

As is mine.

The fact that they aren't always the same is totally irrelevant.

 

[Snowflakez]

If only they listened to reason, they would understand my opinion is always right....
​​​

Where have you been?

 

[wisdom000]

Where have you been?

Double bypass,computer that ate itself, most recently I quick bout of homelessness, but things are ok, new computer, and high hopes.

 

[GinWashi]

Quite simple really it will be a mix of first and third perspective. Just think of the cyber optics options. Times square marquee, targeting scope, image enhancement, micro-optics, teleoptics, micro video, and digital camera would all work the best in a first person perspective.

Now for the person arguing human vision and how wide our vision is with our peripheral vision your both right and absolutely wrong. You see a human engaging in combat has a natural biological response know as tunnel visions that happens to them.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

my opinion is always right....
​​​

As is mine.

Speaking about being right....