In game character Perspective!

[Sardukhar]

I getcha. I forgot at times that you're a mod and have overlords.

Out of curiosity, and this is just because I haven't played 2020 myself, exactly how often have you found that your players really put a lot of effort into vanity stuff? How much time do they spend coming up with descriptions of their outfits, accessories, what have you? I'm curious whether or not this fascination with looks (among many gamers) stems from PnPs.

In my experience with D&D, customization was important, but it wasn't really ongoing. Your look didn't change that often, so you tend to put a lot of effort into that initial creation, and then you just refer back to it (I brush aside my gray cloak, etc.) later.

So okay.


HERE I GO INVALIDATING WHAT I SAID EARLIER. SHUTUP AND IGNORE MY HYPOCRISY.

Not too much...sort of. People like the gear and guns and cars and the city and everyone - EVERYONE- imagines what their character looks like..at least at first. Sadly after a bit it often becomes what armorjack is best. Not for everyone - Rockers and Corps and Fixers tend to say "cool" but if survival is a thing and that AMT 200 trumps your once-so-cool Laser-niner...yeah, you'll prolly swap tot he Colt. Or the Flak Jacket over the fashion T.

HOWEVER. I do feel this is a GM issue, in that we don't encourage players to re-render their looks more often. I also feel that if we -did- have a way of vanity-viewing our PCs, we'd do that a lot more. A friend and I have talked about getting my groups Warhammer Fantasy characters 3D printed, for example. Although, again, gear changes, etc...

SLA Industries ( Scottish horror-corp-punk game, I love it) has -fantastic- visuals, thanks to Dave Alsop. As a result, PCs often look at his many gorgeous illustrations

Spoiler

And ask, "how can I look like THAT?" And then work towards that goal.

So that is out of vanity. But it's also great character motivation, especially in games like Cyberpunk and SLA where media tells you Look Cool Always. And, hey, as a Ref, I then alter the stats or rather, have the PCs pay extra money to alter the stats, so as to make it cool and useful.

Because you want players to be rooted in who they are playing and how they look. I am a big fan of that. It's not necessary to have a good time in CP2020, but it does make it better.

That said, I have a very good idea of what I looked like as Adam Jensen ( one of my favourite Cyberpunk Solos) and that was mostly FPP. So, yeah, I'd love a FPP game rigged out like that.

But I think we can all agree that a switch would really be best.

And again I reiterate I think TPP is by far the most likely, it being CDPR and they looooooooove making their characters look awesome.

 

[Sardukhar]

animalfather

See how much activity this forum and /r/cyberpunkgame is having after the FPS rumors?

It's a great strategy to generate people's interest through rumors and fear.

It's not. It's borderline trouble. People's interest is plenty high. This generates mostly worry. FUD - Fear Uncertainty and Despair.

That is against the Rules.

 

[IllyasvieI]

FUD - Fear Uncertainty and Despair.

I thought it was Doubt?

 

[Snowflakez]

I thought it was Doubt?

It is, at least from what I understand. I think Sard is just putting his own spin on it. It's often used in day trading circles and the car industry.

 

[Snowflakez]

And again I reiterate I think TPP is by far the most likely, it being CDPR and they looooooooove making their characters look awesome.

YOU PLAY WARHAMMER FANTASY?!?!.... *Heavy breathing* I'm jealous. Can't find any groups around here for that.

Seriously, though, thanks for the explanation. And yeah, CDPR definitely seems to have a "thing" for the best animations and looks they can achieve with their given budget and technology.

 

[Suhiira]

HOWEVER. I do feel this is a GM issue, in that we don't encourage players to re-render their looks more often. I also feel that if we -did- have a way of vanity-viewing our PCs, we'd do that a lot more. A friend and I have talked about getting my groups Warhammer Fantasy characters 3D printed, for example. Although, again, gear changes, etc...

I totally agree it's a GM issue, but not in the way most folks may think.
If you run a game where combat is a common occurrence, especially one as lethal as Cyberpunk, then of course your players are going to put emphasis on armor over appearance. Needing to generate a new character every few sessions isn't all that conductive to role-play. That an often (not always of course) combat centric games tend to place less emphasis on social interaction.
I find that if combat is something the players can generally anticipate and prepare for (not always of course, but usually) and the game you run centers around interacting with NPCs, rather them blowing holes in them, most players will choose style.

 

[Sardukhar]

YOU PLAY WARHAMMER FANTASY?!?!.... *Heavy breathing* I'm jealous. Can't find any groups around here for that.

Seriously, though, thanks for the explanation. And yeah, CDPR definitely seems to have a "thing" for the best animations and looks they can achieve with their given budget and technology.

Oh they do. I say odds of it being TPP are like, 80% or better.

Also WFRP is good times. I'm running Enemy Within - hoping to get a group all the way through. Wish them good luck, they just started Death on the Reik!

I find that if combat is something the players can generally anticipate and prepare for (not always of course, but usually) and the game you run centers around interacting with NPCs, rather them blowing holes in them, most players will choose style.

I don't want the PCs to anticipate combat too often - makes them cocky and feels too game-y. I do find that even outside combat, they will still generally look at the stats first because after a couple months, their brains kinda freeze how they look and they don't change it. Also because no one really bothers to worry too much if their trenchcoat has a high collar or not. At best they might go from grey to black or something. Or different coloured cybereyes.

 

[Stiler]

I really hope this rumor that came out yesterday isn't true about first person. I like the option for both sides to play it, but personally I much prefer rpgs in third person perspective.

Part of what I love about rpgs is the visual customization with your character, the clothing/armor you get, weapons, etc. All of that aspect is usually wasted when you're forced into a first person perspective.


When developing a game there are usually three ways to go about it, third person, "fake" first person (which is what many fps games do) and then a true first person view which is a lot easier to develop alongside third person.

With a "fake" first person view they take many shortcuts, because it's not going to be third person they can skimp out on animations, and the camera can be placed lower on the player model, usually around the chest level (where you see the weapon, etc, which is why you usually seem "short" in first person games) as well as using "tricks" to get the camera perspective where they want it without the animations to go with it.

If you COULD see this kind of thing it would look like this (from Crysis 2).

http://i.imgur.com/7vraE1O.gif

Now with a true first person view (think ARMA/Operation Flashpoint) they actually put the camera where the player models head is and fully animate the body and everything (like you would for third person), which not only makes it more immersive (you see your feet, arms, etc) but makes it easier to have both third person and first person views, this way is the best way for both and it's easier to do IF the game is built from the start with this in mind. That's not to say it's as simple as just "plugging" it in for both, you still have to do animations and then make sure they look "good" for both viewpoints.

The problems arise when a developer decides to say, build third person only or the "fake" first person and then part way through development decides to change it, then they have to go back and rework alllll the animations and everything because of that.

 

[Snowflakez]

Now with a true first person view (think ARMA/Operation Flashpoint) they actually put the camera where the player models head is and fully animate the body and everything (like you would for third person), which not only makes it more immersive (you see your feet, arms, etc) but makes it easier to have both third person and first person views, this way is the best way for both and it's easier to do IF the game is built from the start with this in mind. That's not to say it's as simple as just "plugging" it in for both, you still have to do animations and then make sure they look "good" for both viewpoints.

The problems arise when a developer decides to say, build third person only or the "fake" first person and then part way through development decides to change it, then they have to go back and rework alllll the animations and everything because of that.

You can actually do a hybrid system, too. Some Skyrim mods, for example, use the third person camera body but first person camera arms. Either way, I'd want a third person option, but this could work alongside it.

 

[RLKing1969]

I hope the F*CK NOT! The cyberpunk genre lends itself to a HELL of a lot more than a stupid FPS. Cyberpunk is meant to provoke thought, discussion and forces us as people to ask ourselves some pretty profound and difficult questions that we probably NEED to be asking ourselves as not only participants in the game, but as people who have to face the future. Personally, I'd be mad as hell and guys who pioneered the genre like Philip K. Dick would roll over in their graves. Let's hope that "Maximum Mike" Pondsmith will keep them on the REAL path and intent of the Cyberpunk Genre'.

 

[animalfather]

animalfather

See how much activity this forum and /r/cyberpunkgame is having after the FPS rumors?

It's a great strategy to generate people's interest through rumors and fear.

i hope ur right. i really do but im not so sure about it.

 

[Shavod]

I hope the F*CK NOT! The cyberpunk genre lends itself to a HELL of a lot more than a stupid FPS. Cyberpunk is meant to provoke thought, discussion and forces us as people to ask ourselves some pretty profound and difficult questions that we probably NEED to be asking ourselves as not only participants in the game, but as people who have to face the future. Personally, I'd be mad as hell and guys who pioneered the genre like Philip K. Dick would roll over in their graves. Let's hope that "Maximum Mike" Pondsmith will keep them on the REAL path and intent of the Cyberpunk Genre'.

And how does the game being presented in FPP prevent any of that being a case? Deus Ex is considered to be greatest Cyberpunk RPG ever made, despite having a first person perspective only.

 

[animalfather]

CDPR going FPS to cut costs on animations is freaking weak sauce. its not their style to cut corners like that. but its a public company now and they want this game out this year.

 

[Vainamoinen]

Third person or the whole thing can go to hell. Easy as that.

As for the "choice" option, it ruined the poll sadly. Evidently people are for 'choice', that was a given right from the beginning, but games hardly ever work even remotely similarly well in two distinct perspective modes. Take particularly the earlier Fallout games - they HAD a 3rd person view, but it was just too badly implemented to be useful. Better to concentrate development efforts on one perspective (and that means third person) instead of trying to create the Swiss army knife of games. Because that never works, does it. :|

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

CDPR going FPS to cut costs on animations is freaking weak sauce. its not their style to cut corners like that. but its a public company now and they want this game out this year.

You have gone nuclear in the past hours.

 

[Rawls]

Once again ... the unnamed "source" did not even say it was a FPS, they said it was "a FPP game with elements characteristic for role-playing games." The writer of the article also says "we don’t suspect the game to be a regular shooter, but rather an action game full of RPG elements that will offer the players many ways of solving problems."

Also, CDPR just said in there financial conference like a month ago that it was an "immense story-driven roleplay for a single-player" with "no predefined character" and "a futuristic world."

I don't think any of that = FPS. IF the article is accurate, the biggest thing it concerns me about is whether there will be a companion system. But that was never promised ... just my personal hopes. I'll get over it.

 

[Shavod]

2nd. People at BETHESDA gonna laughing so hard to CDPR ... because for them, it easy to make both perspective. So why CDPR lowering themself ?

They would have no real reason to laugh, since their games are already designed as FPP and TPP mode is something that they would just tack on while barely putting any effort in it, resulting in it looking like complete arse, something that CDPR could potentially prefer to avoid.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

If it FPS ... what's the point of customization ?

None, if the customization didn't offer actual gameplay value. If it did however... there's lots of potential value even if you did have to open up a character screen to view it.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

1st. It's a CYBER PUNK THEME ! ... there's bound to be a lot of player appearance customization. If it FPS ... what's the point of customization ?
2nd. People at BETHESDA gonna laughing so hard to CDPR ... because for them, it easy to make both perspective. So why CDPR lowering themself ?
3rd. If this game gonna be FPS (fpp) only, then you can forget my money.

I would change your avatar if I were you unless you want to get banned.

 

[Meccanical]

I will say IF the view point is restricted to first person only, the reason would be from a game design perspective most likely.

The mechanics required for third person and first person games(good ones anyway) have vastly different requirements. They could be going for a hybrid system where shooting is done with a First Person perspective and melee is done from a third person perspective. Or a system similar to Human Revolution where you are given a third person perspective if you take cover and shoot from cover.

Who knows, we only have less than month and a half till we find out for certain.