Suhiira;n7398470 said:
I don't really mind the "repetitive quantity" in a sandbox game if there's enough of "interesting quality" along with it. Then again, I don't really want CP2077 to be a conventional sandbox (like GTA or Bethesda games, and their ilk) in the first place - for reasons I've said many times over.
I'm afraid, being the cynical type I am ... I see things like "open world" and "multiplayer" as checkboxes tacked onto games that don't need, or benefit from, far to often. A marketing tool rather then a useful game design element. Not saying I think CDPR intends to, or will do, a poor job implementing them. But they may have to cut corners on other game design elements as they pound a square peg into a round hole.
cyberpunkforever;n7368770 said:
What cd project did right in w3 open world is the great detailed graphic full of little lovely details all around... The side quests...And also the variations between zones and zones.... Es.Skellige people dressed different from Velen people and so on.....They actually did an amazing job for that...
But indeed in some aspects the game suffers from gamey feel... For example the excessive number of drowners all around....The gamey ? marks ala assasins creed...The not interactive objects.... Is pretty much useless to have a super big open world when your interaction are super limited... Geralt was even unable to sit on a chair...
Mebrilia;n7489820 said:
These are good points, although I do -not- understand why people don't just..turn..off... the POI markers. It's easy.
Really needed a better ecology, too, although it wasn't horrible. Drowners were silly. Middle of the day, just outside a village. Really?
Yep ... better to say "Why is this critter here?" then "Here's an open spot let's put a critter in it!".
But that shouldn't be much of an issue in CP2077. Street gangs are EVERYWHERE. As long as the typical gang banger isn't a borg with anti-armor weaponry they should do fine.
But that shouldn't be much of an issue in CP2077. Street gangs are EVERYWHERE. As long as the typical gang banger isn't a borg with anti-armor weaponry they should do fine.
Suhiira;n7495440 said:
As you know, they aren't everywhere. Few if any in Beaverville, none in Corp Center or the Airport and the Harbour proper is a no-go, get-shot zone. So there are gang-free/lite areas.
More significantly, you've reminded me of a good question about ecology: are they going to do gang territory? It's pretty important. You aren't going to see the Juilliards in Slaughterhouse territory unless they are feeling waaay suicide. You'll see Bozos everywhere, though. Blood Razors stick to Combat Zone..
So, gang ecology. Vs Cop and Corp ecology. Is it going to be a thing, I wonder?
True, but how much time do you expect player characters to spend in Beaverville, Corp Center, Etc.?Sardukhar;n7496260 said:
Most of the places characters are likely to spent time will have a local gang.
You bring up and excellent point about gang territories, if the city is to feel "real" this is pretty essential. You may recall a while back I mentioned each gang being a "faction". Some gangs, like the Bozos, are pretty neutral toward other gangs, others like Juilliards and Slaughterhaouse are basically at war with each other. If your character gains a reputation (i.e. faction) with a given gang it only makes sense you'd probably gain it's allies/enemies.
Suhiira;n7496360 said:
Mm. True. The Corp Center doesn't gennnnnerally work out too well for non-Corp/Media/MedTech PCs. And visiting Beaverville would be like that level in Fallout where you go back in "time" to the weirdly-normal and horribly-creepy suburb. A nice contrast and a place you can't wait to get out of. Forever.
Suhiira;n7496360 said:
Yep, that would be cool, although I'll just be happy if they have regional gang territories beyond, like, three.
Because many people don't like to gimp themselves and feel the restraints should come from the game design. People want challenge, but something that is a challenge AND requiring optimal play without shortcuts and POI/all-seeing high spots turn the game into a tedious to-do list and telling people to ignore them is like telling them not to think of a purple zebra for the next five minutes. To me and to many, deliberately ignoring things or turning them off feels like fixing a poor and wimpy design decision. Finally, it's a tired, tired convention and it would be nice if one designer sacked up and said screw that hoary cliche. C'mon, it's cyberpunk. Smash the machine!
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Suhiira;n7499650 said:
Yeah. Absolutely. Give people choice. You're not "gimping" yourself because you customize your playstyle to your preference. Some people like an easier or simpler time of certain things. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
You don't get bonus points from the Universe for "manning up" and doing games in "hard mode" or whatever you think "original" game mode is. That's nuts.
"Hey testers complain they can't find all the content in less than three hundred hours."
"Hrm. Okay, give them a compass marker. Should make it easier."
"Testers complain the compass marker makes it too easy and bland now."
"Make it an optional compass marker."
"...that's a good idea! Solved."
"Players complain turning off the POI is tampering with the original game vision. They want a challenge but not the option for a challenge. "
"No problem. Leave the POI system on and make them just play in Polish. That's the original game vision -and- it'll be a challenge!"
Players. Damned if you do, damned when you don't.
As long as turning these "things" off doesn't mean putting a blindfold on due the content being designed with a pinpoint GPS, exclamation marks and dotted routes in mind.
Well, the assertion was that some don't understand why people just don't turn these things off. I tried to explain it and hopefully it is clearer even if you think it is stupid. My point is lots of us have played many of these open world games and it seems every year they get squeezed into a smaller and smaller box as the grip of the apparently inviolable dogmas of player-convenience design gets tighter and tighter around our throats with the result that the games all have a different wrapper but all taste the same. The McD deluxe-cheeseburger era of gaming.
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Scottgun;n7502060 said:
Mmm. I wouldn't really argue with that. And I liked Watch Dogs, but, yeah, generic. Also GTA and Just Cause and...one of W3 failings, I thought was the POI system, in terms of deeper gameplay.
My issue wasn't that POIs can be turned off, it's that you couldn't find your objective in a quest by, you know,listening to people and following directions. You needed Magical GPS marker. Ugh.
I tried turning off the mini-map, ha! If they are going to let me turn it off, then hey, there should be some way to finish the game without it. Nope.
I like to think most of us who played W3 are on the same page about shallow content of quantity not beating deep content but less quantity. I could be wrong.
I also know a lot of people play videogames just to relax and have a simple fun time and I don't blame them. For them, POI and compass markers and everything else, great idea. For those of us who like a deeper, more immersive role-play, please give us -that- option.
Sardukhar;n7502210 said:
How about something more similar to Elder Scrolls/Fallout? That is, POI's are granted via the story or npc encounters and marked on your map so you know where to go but you don't get the silly follow-the-yellow-brick-line above your head and once you get to the location, it's pure exploration from there. (However, I wouldn't want as much junk as those titles litter their games with).
I just want to see something other than the usual Assassins/Batman/ShadowofMordor/MadMax/SleepingDogs,etc.,etc.,etc.,etc., infinity system. That is, the usual open-world game with a cyberpunk skin.
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Yeah, I have no problems with POIs that give you the general area you need to be in, the same could be accomplished via a decent map (which some games don't seem to bother with) so it's just an alternative to a map. But when it gives you a specific line to follow to get there, or once you're there showing you exactly where to go then I have issues. But as Sard said, to many games make it effectively essential because it's the only way to find stuff.Sardukhar;n7502210 said:
Well ... only slightly ... there are folks that unreasonably expect high quantity and quality ...
Scottgun;n7502640 said:
W3 did something like this with the map and the search-radius trick. I mean, it was an okay compromise and I didn't hate it, it even makes sense in certain scenarios in Cyberpunk...but I'd -really- prefer to have to look it up in a map or look on my auto-added map and then talk to people once there.
So, you know, a map marker for the building address, but everything after that is up to me.
I guess that's probably what you're actually saying, though, and I am in favour of it. Just not the go-there-search-around-in-shaded-area thing that W3 did.
Seems this thread went on a tangent. Back to the original question, yes, I want a real living breathing world. I give bethesda flak for the dumbing down of their games, but as for interactive world, they get pretty good marks. The area is filled with stuff you can pick up and interact with. Plates, chairs, weapons..etc. Seems minor stuff, but it adds to the realism. However, what really works is that anything you look at in a bethesda game, you can visit. See a mountain, you can climb it, see a house, you can go into it. NPC's move around doing their own thing, but they have lives, homes they go too, eat, read a book, sleep..etc. Not perfect, but really immersive. Take something like GTA, outside of a very few minor interactive areas that are usually tied to the story, the world is filled with cardboard boxes that you cannot interact with. Its all a sham. My dream cyberpunk game would be where every building can be visited. Every NPC has its own life, its own home, family, job, hobbies, eats, sleeps, hang out with friends, etc. Not completely scripted, a little bit of the sims added so they are never completely predictable. I want every building to be able to visit (or break in) and not just be cardboard places. There should be a lot of stuff to do that has nothing to do with missions, just hang out and have fun at bars, clubs, watching a future version of fighting with a cyber vs a bio, playing sim games, hacking (jacking into the net), hanging out with people..etc. The world should feel not like a game, but a breathing world your in.