Interactive living open world (Aka. not movie set open world)

[Mebrilia]

Interactive living open world (Aka. not movie set open world)

This is something i like to discuss there are plenty of open world games but how many of them feel interactive believable?... GTAV is a vast open world but beside the occasional mini game everything is just static not so much interactive.. How many time you seen npc sitting on a bench when you player character can't... But also did something right... Not combat related shops...

When i think about cyberpunk 2077 i think about make Night City interactive and not just handled it like a movie set where the character have all this things supposed to be interactive that are not interactive at all...

1) Make seats usable ((sometime is nice sitting around watching people wandering in the street while not related with the gameplay it adds on the immersion department and roleplay))
2)Not combat related stores ((since cyberpunk 2077 has supposed to have a lot of customization i'd like to see Clothes shop,Bar,Barbers,Cyberware shops,Gadget of course usable from the player..it will be nice to step in a store and buy several things to enhance your style also contribute to make the city more alive))
3) Junk is important... I don't know what is this modern trend of a game to avoid to put useless object around... But when you look inside a crate and you find something like an empty can of soda it adds like a lot of immersion and make the world feel alive.. and before someone steps up and says "why they should put useless items inside the game will be confusing if a player find to kind of item" ((well in real life you can find all around useless items too you feel desperate if they are of no use for you?... No of course not.."
4)Please avoid random generated loot and keep full loot... Is infuriating how you scavenge a corpse of someone you killed and you find on it basically nothing...Allow us to take his belongins all of them... The concept of random loot works fine in MMO not in single player RPG's is gamey and is immersion breaking...
5)Make npc reactive... If you are in a rush and you managed to open fire on your target make npc around react... Screaming.. Running to get out of there fast as possible... Their life is in danger and in a situation like that they should react in panic.
6)Not everything should be quest driven... Random quest could be a thing if well implemented...Assassination contract for example... Delivery tasks.. Small little task that can keep the world fresh and alive... Make the npc or the destination be casually chosen... A few example

Delivery mission:
You are asked to bring something at a dude in a certain location is a work the quest giver can't do by himself for 100 valid reason one could come up...Deliver the package but be prepared....
Variable 1: It could be an easy deliver...
Variable2: Some thugs could be interested in the package you are doing courier for.. and attempt to steal it..
Variable3: Open the package being greedy and keep it for yourself... With consequence ((the quest give could sent someone to take it back or eliminate you))

This is just a little example how a random quest that have the objective to keep the world more alive could be done with variations... ((yes i am not a fan of Preston Garvey style of quests..))

For now those are the suggestion i can give...In order to make an open world more open world and less movie set themepark effect.

 

[Edo34]

Yeah sorry but GTA V as a game has the most detailed open world ever created and it feels everything but static.While playing the game I actually felt that things don't revolve around me as a player which made me even more immersed inside that world.Bethesda on the other hand creates these theme parks you speak of where you can interact with things and where "everything can be used for something" .

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Games like GTA and it's copycats (Watch Dogs, etc) seem like big and "living" initially, but one doesn't have to play for long before the illusion breaks and the game starts to shrink once one notices that it really is just an uniteractive prop city inhabited by mindless robots. Between the missions there's really nothing worthwhile to do and setting up a scene for some random mayhem gets really old really fast. There's too much dead space that only exists to be looked at and walked through.

I'd much rather have smaller (but not Deus Ex tiny) districts that offer more itneractivity and less empty trodding around. Traveling between might be some sort of driving minigame or paid transport with optional sit-through for vista viewing and possible interactions with other passengers if the character in question does not know how to drive or does not have a vehicle at the moment.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

We still haven't had an open world game that checks in on everything, as they all ( best of the genre)have their own pros and cons.
CDPR will have to "economize" here, so it's better focus on interaction that proves to be more meaningful in the long run. Putting buckets on npc heads is funny first time around in Skyrim, but I'd rather have flammable objects, destructible doors, etc. On/off lights, Turn/off radios for stealth.
With npc's, some need to be added, simply for the sake of dialogue and worldbuilding...beggars, streetwise characters, prostitutes, commanding police officers, etc...people who would know what is going on in local area.
Number of objects that you can pick up? That's a tricky one, but it's far better to focus on quality/low number...or further down the line, problems with inventory management, crafting/upgrade system, economy, etc...get more and more out of hand. Imo, in this kind of setting, people should not leave their valuables simply laying around. Throwing objects could be tied to player strength( or even some perks) and stagger/damage enemies based on force.
If you steal, they will call the police, giving the player window of opportunity to interrupt it or to run away...no "Guards are being summoned".

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Games like GTA and it's copycats (Watch Dogs, etc) seem like big and "living" initially, but one doesn't have to play for long before the illusion breaks and the game starts to shrink once one notices that it really is just an uniteractive prop city inhabited by mindless robots.

You can say the same for every open world game...from Gothic, Divinity, Skyrim...pay attention to any closely and you'll get the same result.
Calling it a window dressing or a simple prop is a huge oversimplification and imo, disrespectful to all the work developers put in creating it.
CDPR has a very strong foundation in design, but need to expand game mechanics and interaction.
And get rid of fade to black before dialogue.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

You can say the same for every open world game...from Gothic, Divinity, Skyrim...pay attention to any closely and you'll get the same result.

Sure. That's one of the reasons why I wouldn't want CP2077 to be an open world sandbox game in the same vein to begin with. It's a tad different with those examples, though, since you need to look much closer because those games actually have content in their world.

Calling it a window dressing or a simple prop is a huge oversimplification and imo, disrespectful to all the work developers put in creating it.

I don't think it is, and it's also not disrespectful at all. The game works as intended by the devs. Calling it for what it is shouldn't offend anyone. It's not a formula that works well for "any type of game" while it might work for GTA and the kind of experience it tries to achieve.

CDPR ... need to expand game mechanics and interaction.

Indeed they do. And wager it'd be easier and yield better results if the game wasn't a huge singular sandbox.

 

[Satori88]

Gothic and Fallout NV felt more alive to me then any GTA game. It looks nice but i do agree that they feel empty,lifeless. I don't know why everything worldbuilding wise has to be compared to GTA, especially when CP2077 is trying to be an RPG. Maybe because GTA is strictly an action game and therefore feels less alive, i dont know. I think people are actually more impressed with the production value of GTAs worldbuilding then the worldbuilding itself. It obviously looks good the core things of the world work and it certainly wasn't easy to build all this infrastructure but it lacks character.

I want Night City to be the main character. Build a believable city with rules, where you can't just kill randomly people on the streets without much consequences, then hide somewhere for a minute and let the wanted level fade away.

 

[metalmaniac21]

You know what's immersive? The fact that the world doesn't revovle around the player. How the player should know that the world doesn't revolve around him, that he's free to take any item once he get to the stash and interact with every chair/bartender/prostitute/lock/terminal? I think Cyberpunk 2077 should include other fellow cyberpunks controlled by AI, who does their dirty work, interact with NPCs and possess some loot of legendary. Yes, like Baldur's Gate. Though, I thought about STALKER with it's ambitous A-Life system.

Seems like CDPR tries to fill the gap with this "seamless" multiplayer, the blunt way. After all, P&P RPGs are multiplayer first. I hope CP2077 won't derail into infamous Fallout Online crap.

 

[Garrison72]

When I think of interactive open worlds, I think Bethesda, not Rockstar. GTA5 in particular is actually lacking in this area, despite having an amazing sense of detail and atmosphere. Big part of that is because it's an action game, not an RPG. I hope in Cyberpunk there's more incentive for exploration, stuff/tech/money to hunt down in the world, multiple ways to pull off missions due to layout of buildings, etc.

 

[metalmaniac21]

I hope in Cyberpunk there's more incentive for exploration, stuff/tech/money to hunt down in the world, multiple ways to pull off missions due to layout of buildings, etc.

That's up to the CDPR.
The first and foremost (or I think it is) is to save as much from original P&P RP System as possible.

 

[Mebrilia]

Games like GTA and it's copycats (Watch Dogs, etc) seem like big and "living" initially, but one doesn't have to play for long before the illusion breaks and the game starts to shrink once one notices that it really is just an uniteractive prop city inhabited by mindless robots. Between the missions there's really nothing worthwhile to do and setting up a scene for some random mayhem gets really old really fast. There's too much dead space that only exists to be looked at and walked through.

I'd much rather have smaller (but not Deus Ex tiny) districts that offer more itneractivity and less empty trodding around. Traveling between might be some sort of driving minigame or paid transport with optional sit-through for vista viewing and possible interactions with other passengers if the character in question does not know how to drive or does not have a vehicle at the moment.

That is exactly the point the post was born to suggest how to bring a more liveable and "Interactive" open world in the mechanics.... That is why i suggested to add usable seats.. Not combat related shop..Bar and location..And junk....

GTAV looks beautiful... but outside the mission the open world is nothing but a set...And is not so much interactive but just limited in some "minigames"....

In that bethesda did right....

 

[Calistarius]

One pretty importent aspect of GTA games though is that it is all about the usage of vehicles... yes you can run around on foot, and yes a lot of missions take place on foot... but a huge part of the GTA games is about the vehicles, about the driving of them, doing missions with them, playing around with them between missions, and what not. And that changes the angle at which one has to come from to get the most out of games like GTA. Then over the years, with each new GTA, they have slowly added more and more things around the two core elements of vehicles and combat, more things for you to do alongside the vehicles. And I think this is a pretty importent distinction to be made about GTA games.

That means that certain aspect of these games will just never get the same level off attention as the core's of vehicles and combat do... so like how interactive the world in general is, etc, is not going to get the same level of attention...and in a lot of ways I don't see that as something bad. As a game developer you should put your main effort and focus on the basic main core of the game, and then make all the rest be sort of serviceable for what it is.

So looking at CP2077 then... the core of this game will be different from GTA (although, they might share combat a bit, or compleatly, depends what kind of combat CDPR decides to makes really)... you will need to look at CP2077 from a different angle compared to GTA, a different angle to get the most out of a game like CP2077 compared to GTA. Because things which actually matter to a game like CP2077, and other RPG's in general, do not matter much, or at all, in a game like GTA. Which naturally means that CDPR will be focusing on other aspect, compated to which aspects which Rockstar focused on with GTA.

So while critiquing GTA on those aspects is maybe well deserved in a general sence really... it is still only a critique aimed at one of the aspects of GTA which is not really part of it's core elements. And maybe specificly the elements of GTA that one would not look at GTA for when your making CP2077. I still think there are things which CDPR can probably learn from Rockstar and GTA games though... but those are not neccesarily really anything connected to what the main cores of a game like CP2077 would be (interactivity, living world, RPG related stuff, etc).

I think that what maybe CDPR might look at from a game like GTA5, is specificly maybe their multiplayer aspect of the GTA Online part of GTA5 (just guessing here really, never played the multiplayer of the game, only seen others play it... so I don't know if it is good or not in the context of what a GTA gameplay tends to be)... and if one recalls, CDPR has stated there will be some kind of multiplayer in CP2077 (an aspect of gaming which CDPR has very little experience with really), not to mention that during the last several weeks we have been getting information that CDPR had requested, and recived, a pretty big grant from the Polish government. Which, amongst a few other things (4 things total it seems), is partly ment to be used to research and develop multiplayer for CP2077... or more specifilly:

"Seamless Multiplayer: Comprehensive technology enables the creation of unique gameplay for many players, taking into account the search of opponents, session management, replication facilities, and support of a variety of game modes along with a unique set of dedicated tools."

Source

 

[Suhiira]

There's also no guarantee the "full" multi-player package will be in CP2077.
It could well be CP2077 will have limited multi-player functionality and "full" multi-player is slated for their as of yet unknown other project. We know that want to have two games in the works, that's the main reason they've hired a bunch of new people, and CP2077 is the only one we know about. Since CP2077 will be their first foray into multi-player it makes good sense for it to be in a limited manner. What they learn from CP2077 can then be applied to their other, "full" multi-player project and it will be better for it.

 

[DannyCortz]

Hello there.

In regards to this topic.

It will be so amazing and interesting to experience something unique and nice, far away from GTA and games related models that some have thrive and others never did. Intractable living people in this living environment that looks at you differently walking by, bumps at you walking by in the busy streets of cyberpunk and trouble makers standing up from their chairs walking towards and npc's you to see if you do something because you are non local. From vendors calling by waving you and npc's with their mannerism asking you if you want what they are selling. Having a real well made AI that randomly interacts with you as to npcs, sure.

Talking about the normal aspects and features what we automatically expect in games we have mention and things we expect. Loot, story/side quest repercussions by decisions, intractable objects, real npc's behavior etc. What could be more important than that? But what about the aspect and the behavior of the world itself? When I think about that, I remember the video CDPR made with Mike Pondsmith, he stated something really interesting that many developers have made really well and some never got close.

Quotes from Mike:

"To carry what the streets are like, what the cities is like, the misteries the stories, the thousands thousands of people that you pass that are going by as shadows. In this wet cold dead environment"

When I think about the world environment and the behavior of the world itself in this project and what Mike explain from it. I am thinking of this, depending the hours and the days,the streets will feel different and depending on the location where you are located the behavior and feel of the whole place changes as well, from how the people reacts and how they look as well as and with the environment. In other words, something like this. Think about a nice neighborhood at night and at day, and a ghetto at night and at day. Now think about any place on Sundays and Saturdays at night and at day. And think about the usual busy street and or location in Monday trough Thursday and Friday trough Sunday. That, the drastic behavior in the environment itself is a wow factor in the reality immersive aspect of the game itself. That is what I am pondering on about and will want to see in full force.

Having all of the usual things as immersive experience is nice and dandy and I'm sure know we will have them. But the environment behavioral change throughout the whole different districts, streets and neighborhoods is what makes not only a unique experience but far away from what we have had. Depending the hours as they change is as important and even more immersive, than any other type of usual experiences that we have had in some games and are wasting to have.

Is like this, or close to what I am trying to express with words.

Walking street Pattaya 2016

Hong Kong Walk Tour A night in Mong Kok

Hong Kong Walk Tour Sunday Afternoon @ Mong Kok

A walk to the Mid-levels in Hong Kong

HD 720P walking in tokyo,shibuya <--- I like this video it is long a 1hour 24minutes long. But it does give a raw interpretation in depth to what I was expressing.

P.s. So long.

 

[Suhiira]

Hello there.

In regards to this topic.

It will be so amazing and interesting to experience something unique and nice, far away from GTA and games related models that some have thrive and others never did. Intractable living people in this living environment that looks at you differently walking by, bumps at you walking by in the busy streets of cyberpunk and trouble makers standing up from their chairs walking towards and npc's you to see if you do something because you are non local. From vendors calling by waving you and npc's with their mannerism asking you if you want what they are selling. Having a real well made AI that randomly interacts with you as to npcs, sure.

Talking about the normal aspects and features what we automatically expect in games we have mention and things we expect. Loot, story/side quest repercussions by decisions, intractable objects, real npc's behavior etc. What could be more important than that? But what about the aspect and the behavior of the world itself?

I'd love to see something like this in the game, I don't expect to because of technical limits, but I'd love it if CDPR could even come close.

 

[DannyCortz]

Yes Suhiira I will as well.

But I am sure they will come close to it. They are very dedicated as to what they are doing and want to excel to achieve the best of what they can offer. I "always" been fallowing this company since I knew about Witcher 3 and how this company still growing and all, but one thing they do have that interest me non the less. Is the love of making what the love to do. And the interview I watch with Gamespot: The Lobby

They seem really determine to accomplish way more. In the videos I share, not only depicts the behavioral aspect of how a world could feel as to the AI walking by, but most importantly the fact of how everything feel and look different in each zone depending the time and weather. Everything as their own roles and key elements that makes everything so cohesively coherent. But nothing will be as good as it can be if, the environmental behavior of this different locations doesn't have their own characterizations. But yeah I do get what you mean in regards to the technical limitations they seem to have. Let's see if the amount of money they got, helps to that fact.

P.s. So long.

 

[cyberpunkforever]

with tw3 they did a great job regarding a living open wolrd, to me it's the most believable "breathing and living "open world in video games, and i've played gtav and watch dogs , if the devs follow the same path as tw3 to create cp2007 citiy, i think there si nothing to wory about,
things to improve: no clones please, in tw3 we see two exact same npc's standing right nxt to each other even in cutscenes,
npc's should react to the world itself, to toher npc's, to time of day, weather, and have different activities, and all that must be noticeable

i imagine night city as a combination of gotham city in the game batman arham knight and the "aliveness" of tw3, of course this is futuristic and totally different, but i think the devs know how to do the basics almost perfect,
i agree with most of the points made in this thread, but watch dogs and gtav are not good examples to look up to

the devs can invent, design new things, respecting the lore of the game

 

[Suhiira]

If they'd cut the number of random MOBs in half, or more, I'd agree. But drowners in particular were everywhere!
How the hell did fishermen make a living? How did merchants manage to survive travelling from village to village?

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

Yeah sorry but GTA V as a game has the most detailed open world ever created and it feels everything but static.While playing the game I actually felt that things don't revolve around me as a player which made me even more immersed inside that world.Bethesda on the other hand creates these theme parks you speak of where you can interact with things and where "everything can be used for something" .

GTA 5 felt very static so did the Witcher 3, Watchdogs and other Ubisoft games. I sort of dig original posters term "Movie set open world" they look nice but are lifeless and static sort of like movie sets. The games I mentioned all have beautiful looking worlds but they all are filled with crappy copy pasted points of interest locations, static non interactive NPCs and don't really reward exploration. I know its cliche but Bethesda games including all FNV knock it out of the park in terms of open world interactivity, exploration, world landmarks, unique loot and content that fill the world.

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

Gothic and Fallout NV felt more alive to me then any GTA game. It looks nice but i do agree that they feel empty,lifeless. I don't know why everything worldbuilding wise has to be compared to GTA, especially when CP2077 is trying to be an RPG. Maybe because GTA is strictly an action game and therefore feels less alive, i dont know. I think people are actually more impressed with the production value of GTAs worldbuilding then the worldbuilding itself. It obviously looks good the core things of the world work and it certainly wasn't easy to build all this infrastructure but it lacks character.

I want Night City to be the main character. Build a believable city with rules, where you can't just kill randomly people on the streets without much consequences, then hide somewhere for a minute and let the wanted level fade away.

Well Witcher 3 shared a lot more Rockstar/Ubisoft open world design than Bethesda/Obsidian which is a negative because they had the opportunity to copy the better open world design. The copy pasted boring point of interest locations which all sucked were worse than Morrowinds/Oblivion's repetitive dungeons. I agree CDPR should steer away from Rockstar and Ubisoft world design.