Is it just me, or is Yen... [Spoilers}

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It's also hard to realize that the end doesn't justify the means, a quite basic ethical principle. If you have to kill one innocent person in order to save two others, would you do so? I wouldn't because it's clearly ethically and morally wrong.

must be very lonely, being on that high horse of yours.
there is nothing morally wrong with sacrificing people for the greater good at all, good people do it for good reasons with good effect all the time, you need to stop thinking black and white and explore this issue of "morality" deeper, you are but skindeep judging by these comments.

ofc nothing wrong with thinking like that, like i said neither choice deserves condemnation, but if you chose one or the other you should at the very least be less judgmental and more analytical of the other choice.

Black and white works for star wars kind of stories, but fortunately witcher's world is deep and human, not childish and fable-like

And a truly loving human being doesn't sacrifice a person they love for the sake of some higher philosophical and far away goal. That's the doing of a cold and heartless person after all.

funny you are trying to glue Triss to the "unloving and cold" persona, just because YOU dont understand the choice the character made while defending THE character that is actually callous to her loved ones DESPITE loving them so (Yennefer)

if you say Triss doesn't love Ciri or Geralt because of her Lodge choices, then why not say Yennefer does not love Geralt either because of her cheating choices, of her using Geralt to do her terrible deeds for her own selfish reasons?
if you enjoy black and white "morality" so much, why not use the black and white brush on both characters?


Well, it's a question of probability and priority. Once you saved your loved ones you can still try to safe the world. But once you sacrificied your loved one what's the point in saving the world?

your loved one is still there, still capable of forgiveness, of moving on and even becoming happy again some other way, on the other hand mages will still be burning if you dont do anything about it.
like you said its about weighting the situation and to what ideals you stand for, each person stands for his own, and Triss made her choice, you condemn her for it, fine, I also dont like it, but I understand it, admire it even, and if I was Geralt and Ciri I would forgive her (and in fact the characters did)

its not like she threw them unto a volcano to appease the gods that would otherwise destroy the world, again leave the black and white "morality" behind, this is not a simple children fairy tale its a complex work of fiction with characters with human traits.


That's not harder, it's just foolish. Only dogmatists, brain-washed or cold and heartless people would decide to do so. Sacrificing yourself is one thing. Sacrificing the people you love is a deeply inhuman, despisable action that is beyond redemption. A mother who sacrifcies her child for whatever reason is a monster in my books. There is no justification for such action. If some lofty principles want the mother to do so the world should really go down, like Geralt said. Such a world isn't worth saving.

your opinion, i disagree heartily, and again ask you, how lonely are you in that high horse of yours?


Please read the passage from the books again, I quoted here. Philippa (and with her Triss as the member of the lodge) clearly denied Yennefer's request to save Geralt's life. It's against the lodge's interests and therefore against Triss' interests. So she quite literally is ready to sacrifice Geralt, the one she claims to love. So no, you're wrong. It's not just about "using someone", it's much more than that. That's the reason why Yennefer can't forgive Triss.

was refering to Ciri in that bit.
maybe some day you will understand why Triss and ALSO YENNEFER (something you stubbornly refuse to admit) are willing to "risk" (by not saving him) note not sacrifice Geralt, its not like the Lodge wants Geralt dead, thats just not true.


You're making up arguments here. I know quite well what PTSD is. But we don't know whether Triss suffers from it and in which form. Maybe she is traumatized but you know what? Yen is so since she was born. Her parents and especially her father hated her because she was ugly and had a hunchback. When she was young she hurt herself. So who's the really traumatized person here? Not even speaking about the fact that Yen was wounded on Sooden as well, blinded by Fringilla Vigo, which is even more traumitizing in her case because she has that childhood trauma connected with her physical appearance.

So what's the point in comparing traumas? However you see it, I don't see any trauma as a good justification for ammoral action. A sociopath might suffer from psychological disorder but he is still a bad person whom I see responsible for their actions (just as an example).

not making up any arguments, there multiple book bits where Triss's will falters due to her trauma, I assumed you were referring to that in the first comments you made about Triss not "fightning" for those she loves, guess it wasnt the case as you seem to not even know what I am talking about.

I am not sure how old or educated you are, but to state that "trauma" is no justification for what YOU consider "immoral" by your black and white extreme standards, just shows that you are very uninformed on the mather.

Dude, I speak about the books all the time, not the games. I've actually made that very clear in my posts. And in the books Triss has almost no progress at all, while Yennefer had a great deal of progress. Still YOU compare the game Triss with the stort stories Yen which is just pointless because you neglect the whole progress Yen went through during the events in the books. That's just a faulty basis for comparison.

why are you speaking only of the books?
in the books there isnt even an issue of Geralt and triss at all... sure Triss loves him, but neither Triss had a chance at love with Geralt nor did Geralt ever got over Yennefer, the games changed that, and made all 3 characters change with what happened from the books unto the games.

this discussion is entirely pointless if you are discussing the books only.
And no I am not dismissing Yen's progress at all both books AND games, in fact said it many times Yen changed for the better.
 
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must be very lonely, being on that high horse of yours.
Which high horse of mine? And why the ad hominem attack?

there is nothing morally wrong with sacrificing people for the greater good at all, good people do it for good reasons with good effect all the time, you need to stop thinking black and white and explore this issue of "morality" deeper, you are but skindeep judging by these comments.

ofc nothing wrong with thinking like that, like i said neither choice deserves condemnation, but if you chose one or the other you should at the very least be less judgmental and more analytical of the other choice.

Black and white works for star wars kind of stories, but fortunately witcher's world is deep and human, not childish and fable-like
There is nothing wrong with having certain moral standards and a catalogue of ethical levels you believe to serve the society best. That's not black vs white thinking, that's actually the result of a thought process, a thought process I tried to present here.

Other than you I do think that one "side" deserves condemnation but I have my reason for that. You on the other hand, failed so far to deliver any good reasons for either of those sides I'm afraid.


funny you are trying to glue Triss to the "unloving and cold" persona, just because YOU dont understand the choice the character made while defending THE character that is actually callous to her loved ones DESPITE loving them so (Yennefer)
Yennefer doesn't do that in the book.

if you say Triss doesn't love Ciri or Geralt because of her Lodge choices, then why not say Yennefer does not love Geralt either because of her cheating choices, of her using Geralt to do her terrible deeds for her own selfish reasons?
if you enjoy black and white "morality" so much, why not use the black and white brush on both characters?
Which selfish reasons do you mean exactly?

And cheating with people was never an issue in Yen's relationship with Geralt up to a certain moment, at least if they don't know the other sexual partners and if there are no real feelings involved.

your loved one is still there, still capable of forgiveness, of moving on and even becoming happy again some other way, on the other hand mages will still be burning if you dont do anything about it.
We're talking about completely different topics here, I'm afraid.

like you said its about weighting the situation and to what ideals you stand for, each person stands for his own, and Triss made her choice, you condemn her for it, fine, I also dont like it, but I understand it, admire it even, and if I was Geralt and Ciri I would forgive her (and in fact the characters did)
See above.

its not like she threw them unto a volcano to appease the gods that would otherwise destroy the world, again leave the black and white "morality" behind, this is not a simple children fairy tale its a complex work of fiction with characters with human traits.
See above.

your opinion, i disagree heartily, and again ask you, how lonely are you in that high horse of yours?
How about skipping the ad hominem attack and present why you disagree instead. I think we can talk about topics here without belitteling each other users or talking about users instead of topics in general.

maybe some day you will understand why Triss and ALSO YENNEFER (something you stubbornly refuse to admit) are willing to "risk" (by not saving him) note not sacrifice Geralt, its not like the Lodge wants Geralt dead, thats just not true.
Again, please skip the personal attacks. And I didn't write that the lodge wants Geralt dead, they just don't care about him being alive or dead. They have no intention to save his life, even if they could. That's not how you act in respect to someone your care about or love in Triss' case.
Yennefer had to decide whether she goes after Ciri or after Geralt. Geralt would have been the first one who'd understand why she decided for Ciri in that situation.

not making up any arguments, there multiple book bits where Triss's will falters due to her trauma, I assumed you were referring to that in the first comments you made about Triss not "fightning" for those she loves, guess it wasnt the case as you seem to not even know what I am talking about.

I am not sure how old or educated you are, but to state that "trauma" is no justification for what YOU consider "immoral" by your black and white extreme standards, just shows that you are very uninformed on the mather.
Personal attack after personal attack after personal attack. I really begin to lose interest in talking with you on that level...

Anyway, I've not said that it's impossible that Triss suffers from some kind of trauma. That might very well be the case. But we don't know the consequences and specific elements of that trauma. And anyway, a trauma isn't a justification for anything. It's not that I don't feel for Triss. I just don't agree with her decisions.

And why do you completely ignore Yen's probable even deeper trauma here if that topic is of such importance for you? As I've layed out, both women were victims of some kinds of traumatic experiences. We can only imagine and speculate how that formed their characters and believings. Sapkowski gives us some bits of information. The rest is just made up in our minds to make up a full character.

why are you speaking only of the books?
in the books there isnt even an issue of Geralt and triss at all... sure Triss loves him, but neither Triss had a chance at love with Geralt nor did Geralt ever got over Yennefer, the games changed that, and made all 3 characters change with what happened from the books unto the games.
Why do I speak of the book? Mabe because it's the foundation for everything the games offer? Maybe I speak of the books in the last few pages because I constantly reply to posts? I honstely ask my selfway why you don't speak about the books. I mean, it was my comment with a clear book quote to which you replied. It should be pretty obvious that we talk about book stuff in that case.

And in the books it's not that clear if Triss actually really loves Geralt or if she only feels some kind of physical attraction most sorceresses feel in his presence, just on a side note.

this discussion is entirely pointless if you are discussing the books only.
Well, if you think so why do you write so much? And I disagree with that statement anyway. I think without understanding the characters and events in the books you cannot fully understand or interpret the characters depicted in the game. You have to know the basis and from where characters came from to properly assess their impact in the games. One step after the other. If you think it's pointless you are of course free to just ignore my posts.;)
 
A father or a mother that sacrifice their child for a greater good for example, they are or insane or they don't care about that child at all. But back to topic, we can argue about Yen and Triss 100 years and we will not get to any agreement , Yen is almost the same like in the books but Triss is not, at least in the last 2 games, because in the first game she was just a pale copy of Yennefer. Even after she seems changed i don't like Triss and i will never do, and some people will never like Yen not matter what arguments i will make, just like in real life, we can not have similar tastes and that's all. What i do not like at all is how some people portrait Yen fans to be some kind of sociopaths and many other "beautiful" compliments they made just because we don't like ginger women's or we don't like Triss character or simply we decide that Yen is better for our Geralt because reasons .... This is my opinion about this whole real storm created by Yen/Triss choice, and because in the witcher games the romance takes an important role this will never stop, so let make more Yen vs Triss ..... hehehe
 
Which high horse of mine? And why the ad hominem attack?


There is nothing wrong with having certain moral standards and a catalogue of ethical levels you believe to serve the society best. That's not black vs white thinking, that's actually the result of a thought process, a thought process I tried to present here.

Other than you I do think that one "side" deserves condemnation but I have my reason for that. You on the other hand, failed so far to deliver any good reasons for either of those sides I'm afraid.



Yennefer doesn't do that in the book.


Which selfish reasons do you mean exactly?

And cheating with people was never an issue in Yen's relationship with Geralt up to a certain moment, at least if they don't know the other sexual partners and if there are no real feelings involved.


We're talking about completely different topics here, I'm afraid.


See above.


See above.


How about skipping the ad hominem attack and present why you disagree instead. I think we can talk about topics here without belitteling each other users or talking about users instead of topics in general.


Again, please skip the personal attacks. And I didn't write that the lodge wants Geralt dead, they just don't care about him being alive or dead. They have no intention to save his life, even if they could. That's not how you act in respect to someone your care about or love in Triss' case.
Yennefer had to decide whether she goes after Ciri or after Geralt. Geralt would have been the first one who'd understand why she decided for Ciri in that situation.


Personal attack after personal attack after personal attack. I really begin to lose interest in talking with you on that level...

Anyway, I've not said that it's impossible that Triss suffers from some kind of trauma. That might very well be the case. But we don't know the consequences and specific elements of that trauma. And anyway, a trauma isn't a justification for anything. It's not that I don't feel for Triss. I just don't agree with her decisions.

And why do you completely ignore Yen's probable even deeper trauma here if that topic is of such importance for you? As I've layed out, both women were victims of some kinds of traumatic experiences. We can only imagine and speculate how that formed their characters and believings. Sapkowski gives us some bits of information. The rest is just made up in our minds to make up a full character.


Why do I speak of the book? Mabe because it's the foundation for everything the games offer? Maybe I speak of the books in the last few pages because I constantly reply to posts? I honstely ask my selfway why you don't speak about the books. I mean, it was my comment with a clear book quote to which you replied. It should be pretty obvious that we talk about book stuff in that case.

And in the books it's not that clear if Triss actually really loves Geralt or if she only feels some kind of physical attraction most sorceresses feel in his presence, just on a side note.


Well, if you think so why do you write so much? And I disagree with that statement anyway. I think without understanding the characters and events in the books you cannot fully understand or interpret the characters depicted in the game. You have to know the basis and from where characters came from to properly assess their impact in the games. One step after the other. If you think it's pointless you are of course free to just ignore my posts.;)


whatever you say m8, you follow your own narrowly selected reason and disregard what you dont like... not much to argue about that...
you dont even acknowledge Yens faults in the books... only Triss's and disregard the game's events wich is critical to the entire discussion... so ye, no point arguing this with you.
clearly a Yen fanboy.

me I love both women, see no need at all to trash one or the other.
You it seems have this really radical self-righteous black and white brush you seem to use exclusively for Triss and not for Yen otherwise you would claim none of them actually love him and both are horrible people.

A father or a mother that sacrifice their child for a greater good for example, they are or insane or they don't care about that child at all.

hypotheticals:
-a parent knows her son has a "mental condition" that causes harm to the society (for example may be a serial killer) and decides to turn him over to authorities as he is unable to help on his own
-a parent cuts off a child's priviledged lifestyle because he sees him growing into something "terrible" in an effort to make him understand/grow into something different.

could go on and on and on.
but we are talking about specific hypotheticals.
we are talking a) Triss not risking the Lodge's Agenda to free Geralt and b) Triss being compliant to the Lodge's plans for Ciri to help them create a "fair" and racial/mage tension free realm.
also note that Triss knows this to be wrong, and just sees no way to achieve what are otherwise selfless and noble goals.

Yennefer did much much worse (like use Geralt to murder for her own selfish reasons, treating him and the people he loves like crap, cheating on him and driving them to fight to the death with the opposition and so on), even tho yen's fanboys completely ignore it, and isnt getting even a percent of the flak Triss is getting, main reason I suspect is people who are fan of triss or of both triss and yen, either dont care about the books or care about books and games as a whole.
 
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whatever you say m8, you follow your own narrowly selected reason and disregard what you dont like... not much to argue about that...
.
At least I have some reason. And whatever I don't agree on, I provide reason for that as well.

you dont even acknowledge Yens faults in the books... only Triss's
Which faults? At which time? Be specific for once instead of just criticizing other for what they write without being any specific on your own or bringing up real arguments on your own. I'd love to read some good arguments on your side but I can't see many, sorry.

and disregard the game's events wich is critical to the entire discussion... so ye, no point arguing this with you
Thanks for talking. You basically just attacked me personally all the time, ignored all the points I've brought up or dismissed them in a general manner without bringing up arguments on your own. So yeah, what's the point of talking (not argueing)...

And no, I don't disregard the game's events. I just talk about the basis first. Simple.
 
At least I have some reason. And whatever I don't agree on, I provide reason for that as well.


Which faults? At which time? Be specific for once instead of just criticizing other for what they write without being any specific on your own or bringing up real arguments on your own. I'd love to read some good arguments on your side but I can't see many, sorry.


Thanks for talking. You basically just attacked me personally all the time, ignored all the points I've brought up or dismissed them in a general manner without bringing up arguments on your own. So yeah, what's the point of talking (not argueing)...

And no, I don't disregard the game's events. I just talk about the basis first. Simple.


I already did... multiple times... but I can see how hard it must be to read them with those thick Yen fanboy glasses.

ps: I never attacked you personally, you showed ignorance towards the subject of Trauma/PTSD, its no insult to state what a person himself shows...
you also declare yourself morally "superior", where I'm from thats called being self-righteous, hence the "high horse" comments.
 
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I already did... multiple times... but I can see how hard it must be to read them with those thick Yen fanboy glasses.

It seems you're really unable to talk with me without constantly putting out ad hominem attacks. Shame. Well, better we end that right here.
 
It seems you're really unable to talk with me without constantly putting out ad hominem attacks. Shame. Well, better we end that right here.

I did talk with you without "ad hominem" attacks, you just ignored every argument :)
every single thing I said to give context to Triss's actions you summarily dismissed by declaring yourself morally superior (hence the self righteous/high horse comments) and every fault pointed out on Yen's part you completely utterly ignored (hence the Yen fanboy glasses comment)

some of Yen's faults are pointed out right then and there, clear to see, yet you claim they arn't there... can only think of one reason for that: you dont want to see them.
What else do you want me to say when I clearly stated the things you claim I didn't multiple times and you just keep yelling to show them...
sorry m8 thats textbook fanboy behavior right there.
would it make a difference if I made a huge self quote post showing you what you should've already addressed?
I doubt it, assuming you read the books, you read the EXACT same things I did, if you say you didn't see Yen's faults in the books doubt you will know what my quotes are about.


ps: I am not attacking you personally, you showed ignorance on the matter of trauma/PTSD and yet felt your ignorance was basis for your argument... (you like ad hominem fallacy? how about appeal from ignorance fallacy?) the only possible response to that argument can be none other than to point out the obvious: you dont understand what you are saying, nothing I can do about that.
 
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Ips: I am not attacking you personally, you showed ignorance on the matter of trauma/PTSD and yet felt your ignorance was basis for your argument...
I didn't ignore it all. I just pointed out a few things you don't seem to like in that context. I said that the real extend or consequences of the trauma aren't know above the level Sapkowski's described them. Everything else is just interpreation or speculation. And I said that a trauma isn't a justifcation for morally questionalbe behaviour in my opinion. And I said that Yen suffered from a serious trauma herself which makes the whole traum topic competely arbitrary in pointless when comparing those two women.

I can still see not a single argument or answer in your last whole post though. But at least you skipped the personal stuff this time, hence the reply.

Also I don't the your accusation that I ignored Yen's faults. I actually never did and that was never the point of any of my posts. I never said she was the most perfect human being ever. I just pointed out a few things that made Triss' behaviour unacceptable in my point of view, hence the book quote. That doesn't imply that Yen was perfect, not at all. But when I compare those two characters in the books, I think that in the end Yennefer has imho shown a morally superior behaviour and she cared more about the people she actually loves than Triss. When I was Geralt I wouldn't want to live together with a woman who willingly accepted to sacrificy me "for the greater good". And I think Geralt made his position pretty clear to what he thinks about people who want to use Ciri for their own political goals which includes the lodge and Triss.

And where did I declare MYSELF morally superior? I never wrote a single line about myself. I described why I think Yen showed the better moral behaviour and I tried to give good arguments for that. What's the problem with that? I don't get it. That has nothing to do with me. So I'm not sitting on any high horse here. I just try to make my personal assessment of the characters and their actions clear like everyone else in this topic and elsewhere. Or is it today already a crime to have a certain point of view, no matter whether you have arguments or not? Wow...
 
I didn't ignore it all. I just pointed out a few things you don't seem to like in that context. I said that the real extend or consequences of the trauma aren't know above the level Sapkowski's described them. Everything else is just interpreation or speculation. And I said that a trauma isn't a justifcation for morally questionalbe behaviour in my opinion. And I said that Yen suffered from a serious trauma herself which makes the whole traum topic competely arbitrary in pointless when comparing those two women.

what are you trying to say? cuz I just dont get it, are you saying that Triss didnt have any Trauma? or that she did have Trauma but it is not relevant for her "misshaps" when she had to help Geralt and couldn't?
if its the first then you should revisit the bit where Geralt is about to die, and there is a diologue between Yen trying to snap Triss out of a fear lock situation, she describes briefly Triss'es state and where it comes from.
if its the second then again, you have no understanding of what trauma is and what its effects do, if you declare a person paralyzed by traumatic fear as "immoral" for not taking action.


I can still see not a single argument or answer in your last whole post though. But at least you skipped the personal stuff this time, hence the reply.

Also I don't the your accusation that I ignored Yen's faults. I actually never did and that was never the point of any of my posts. I never said she was the most perfect human being ever. I just pointed out a few things that made Triss' behaviour unacceptable in my point of view, hence the book quote. That doesn't imply that Yen was perfect, not at all. But when I compare those two characters in the books, I think that in the end Yennefer has imho shown a morally superior behaviour and she cared more about the people she actually loves than Triss. When I was Geralt I wouldn't want to live together with a woman who willingly accepted to sacrificy me "for the greater good". And I think Geralt made his position pretty clear to what he thinks about people who want to use Ciri for their own political goals which includes the lodge and Triss.

And where did I declare MYSELF morally superior? I never wrote a single line about myself. I described why I think Yen showed the better moral behaviour and I tried to give good arguments for that. What's the problem with that? I don't get it. That has nothing to do with me. So I'm not sitting on any high horse here. I just try to make my personal assessment of the characters and their actions clear like everyone else in this topic and elsewhere. Or is it today already a crime to have a certain point of view, no matter whether you have arguments or not? Wow...


tell you what, make me a list of Yen's faults in your view then.
In the books what were the worst deeds you saw her doing that you thought to yourself: "oh my favorite girl was nasty here", and what you consider to be general personality flaws (despite you liking them or not, for example I think her being callous is cute despite most people not finding that amusing, but I still count it as a flaw)
 
what are you trying to say? cuz I just dont get it, are you saying that Triss didnt have any Trauma? or that she did have Trauma but it is not relevant for her "misshaps" when she had to help Geralt and couldn't?
Again, I fear we talk about completely different situations...

if its the first then you should revisit the bit where Geralt is about to die, and there is a diologue between Yen trying to snap Triss out of a fear lock situation, she describes briefly Triss'es state and where it comes from.
if its the second then again, you have no understanding of what trauma is and what its effects do, if you declare a person paralyzed by traumatic fear as "immoral" for not taking action.
In the quote and situation from the book I described her her trauma wasn't any real issue at all. That's the point. I talked about that and nothing more. If you want to talk about different (specific) situations you have to tell others before you criticize them. And then again it was you who replied to my post initially so I guessed you'd know what I'm talking about.

tell you what, make me a list of Yen's faults in your view then.
Why should I do that? What's the purpose of such a list?

In the books what were the worst deeds you saw her doing that you thought to yourself: "oh my favorite girl was nasty here", and what you consider to be general personality flaws (despite you liking them or not, for example I think her being callous is cute despite most people not finding that amusing, but I still count it as a flaw)
I don't get what you want to tell me...I already said that Yen had flaws. I also said she changed. And my point is that in the things that really counts FOR GERALT she behaves worse than Triss in the books. Both on a "theoretical" level and a very direct and practical level. Plain and simple. There might be several reasons for that but that doesn't change that any bit...
 
I think that some people feel some genuine loyalty to human beings other than their immediate family and friends because they're not psychopaths.

I'd try to save the world even if my family was dead because, well, I don't hate everyone.

I'd still be emotionally devastated though.
 
Again, I fear we talk about completely different situations...

I think I get it now, when you said its "morally wrong" for Triss to not take action you were referring specifically to the Lodge not saving Geralt incident ye?
ok, I can grant you that, I would agree that Triss made a bad choice that she herself felt it was "wrong" and I also would've loved if she did the opposite of what she did, BUT I think its not an honest portrayal of what happen to end it there, as I said, she did a bad thing in hopes a greater good would come out of it.




Why should I do that? What's the purpose of such a list?

no offence, but its the easiest way to see if a person is taking a "healthy" perspective or taking the "keyhole" perspective of seeing only what pleases them.
I asked just so you could give me YOUR view on Yen's character, her flaws to better understand your take on the character.

I don't get what you want to tell me...I already said that Yen had flaws. I also said she changed. And my point is that in the things that really counts FOR GERALT she behaves worse than Triss in the books. Both on a "theoretical" level and a very direct and practical level. Plain and simple. There might be several reasons for that but that doesn't change that any bit...

ok let me take a example that was talked about here...
when she asks Geralt to murder dragons to try to treat her fertility? whats your take?

I think that some people feel some genuine loyalty to human beings other than their immediate family and friends because they're not psychopaths.

I'd try to save the world even if my family was dead because, well, I don't hate everyone.

I'd still be emotionally devastated though.

Pretty much, tho many people either won't understand this or won't cope with it.
you can also love people with all your heart but be aware when they do something wrong, and CALL THEM on it or help them see it or even pay for their mistakes, not just for the "betterment" of society but also for their own character.

we live in a grey world, black and white is for fairy tales
 
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I think I get it now, when you said its "morally wrong" for Triss to not take action you were referring specifically to the Lodge not saving Geralt incident ye?
ok, I can grant you that, I would agree that Triss made a bad choice that she herself felt it was "wrong" and I also would've loved if she did the opposite of what she did, BUT I think its not an honest portrayal of what happen to end it there, as I said, she did a bad thing in hopes a greater good would come out of it.
Well, I do agree that Triss is some kind of an idealist, already said that before. So what she wants to achieve (which isn't necessarily all the same the lodge or Philippa want to achieve) is maybe a good goal. I just don't agree with the means but I'm deeply convinced that the end doesn't justify the means.

In the specific moment later in the books I agree with you that Triss acts a bit differently, but it's a very different situation if you are "far away" from the problem or if your friends are literally dying in front of your eyes. I don't blame Triss for not taking action there. I agree with you that she is a troubled person (actualy like many other sorceresses, Yen included) and it's hard to blame somebody for action (or lacking action) in a concrete and dangerous situation. That's why I actually wanted to refrain myself to the less concrete situations in which Triss acts just like a member of the lodge with Philippa's "the end justify the means" approach.

no offence, but its the easiest way to see if a person is taking a "healthy" perspective or taking the "keyhole" perspective of seeing only what pleases them.
I asked just so you could give me YOUR view on Yen's character, her flaws to better understand your take on the character.

Well, first of all Yen is a quite troubled character, imho even more troubled than Triss. She was born as an ugly and hunchbacked baby, outcasted from the own parents. She could call herself lucky that she was given to the sorcerers for education instead of just being thrown into the roadside ditch. I think that's the reason why she lacks some good amount self-assurance and even more so, self-love. She hides that with an extremely hard shell made out of extreme pride, cold and heartless behaviour and a huge deal of arrogance and feel of superiority. That's how most people know her and that's how she wants to be seen by most people. And it's an appearance and self-assessment she shares with most of her collegues. She is well integrated in the circles of sorcerers before the books, being in the council of sorcerers and knowing all the important people there. She had an active part in the genetic experiences with the elder blood and Ciri's ancestors, including the incesteous marriage of her grand-grandparents. But her greatest personal problem is perhaps that she can't accept that she isn't able to give birth to a child. She wants to be a mother whatever it takes. Before the books and in the short stories almost everything she does has the goal to make her fertile again, like the tale with the golden dragon. So before the books Yen is cold, calculating and self-centered, not really caring about anybody, while still believing in the superioirty of the sorcerers and those who can use magic. Much like Philippa and most other sorcerers she thinks that she is accountable to none and that the sorcerers know best what to do.

But there are two elements that changed Yen and her behaviour, namely Geralt and Ciri. Geralt gave her back self-assurance and empowered her to some kind of self-love again. She is used to relationships to other sorcerers, which are often just sexual and not really deep. Geralt and Yen are bound by the last wish, but we don't really know if they are just bound together by destiny or if there is more to it. During the books there is a progression in their relationship that goes from "I don't know what's between us" to "I love you". At the end of the books it is pretty much sure that there is much more between Yen and Geralt than just destiny. Ciri is of course both destiny and "social putty" between them. After some time, Ciri becomes the substitute for Yen's own child she can never get. They begin a natural mother-daughter relationship which frees Yen at least partially from her endless cure for her fertility trauma. With Ciri and Geralt she knows two people she actually and truly cares about. So much that she is ready to sacrifice herself for either of them which is a pretty outstanding trait for a sorceress in that world. So much that she would bascially do everything for them. So she might still be cold and merciless and arrogant on the outside, and she still might push Geralt quite around, but nevertheless she cares for her "family". That's her no 1 priority now. And we shouldn't forget that Geralt isn't perfect neither. They have both flaws. And Ciri. The Ciri from the books is maybe the most flawed character of them all, but she gets some catharsis at the end of the book, like all of them get. Geralt sacrifices himself for some anderlings although he doesn't have to. Yennefer sacrifices herself in order to save his life although she doesn't have to. A Ciri sacrifices "the world" for rescuing both of them, although the end is open.

So no, Yennefer is no perfect character by far. But if we look at Yen and Triss through Geralt's eyes she is the perfect partner for him, at least in my books. She's the one who truly loves him and would do anything for him and Ciri, leaving behind her former friends and allies, accepting being called traitor and accepting being tortured and killed. What's true love if not that? I don't know but I don't think Triss loves Geralt on the same level. She might be a generally nice person and she might even have a genuine belief in the higher good but for Geralt she is just a nice person he likes. They don't have the history he has with Yen and Ciri, the deep connection with them forged by destiny, suffering and experience alike. And in the end, no matter how troubled, no matter how egoistic, now matter how merciless, cold or arrogant, Yennefer never gave up Geralt or Ciri. It was a long and painful process for her but in the end she knows what's most important for her: family. And if you ask me, a human being can't really find a more worthy and valuable goal in life than living for the family and loved ones and doing everything for them.

ok let me take a example that was talked about here...
when she asks Geralt to murder dragons to try to treat her fertility? whats your take?
See above. That's a good example for the "early book" Yen, only caring about herself and her problem with her infertility. But like I've said before, Ciri and Geralt changed her on a quite fundamental level imho.
 
Well, I do agree that Triss is some kind of an idealist, already said that before. So what she wants to achieve (which isn't necessarily all the same the lodge or Philippa want to achieve) is maybe a good goal. I just don't agree with the means but I'm deeply convinced that the end doesn't justify the means.

In the specific moment later in the books I agree with you that Triss acts a bit differently, but it's a very different situation if you are "far away" from the problem or if your friends are literally dying in front of your eyes. I don't blame Triss for not taking action there. I agree with you that she is a troubled person (actualy like many other sorceresses, Yen included) and it's hard to blame somebody for action (or lacking action) in a concrete and dangerous situation. That's why I actually wanted to refrain myself to the less concrete situations in which Triss acts just like a member of the lodge with Philippa's "the end justify the means" approach.



Well, first of all Yen is a quite troubled character, imho even more troubled than Triss. She was born as an ugly and hunchbacked baby, outcasted from the own parents. She could call herself lucky that she was given to the sorcerers for education instead of just being thrown into the roadside ditch. I think that's the reason why she lacks some good amount self-assurance and even more so, self-love. She hides that with an extremely hard shell made out of extreme pride, cold and heartless behaviour and a huge deal of arrogance and feel of superiority. That's how most people know her and that's how she wants to be seen by most people. And it's an appearance and self-assessment she shares with most of her collegues. She is well integrated in the circles of sorcerers before the books, being in the council of sorcerers and knowing all the important people there. She had an active part in the genetic experiences with the elder blood and Ciri's ancestors, including the incesteous marriage of her grand-grandparents. But her greatest personal problem is perhaps that she can't accept that she isn't able to give birth to a child. She wants to be a mother whatever it takes. Before the books and in the short stories almost everything she does has the goal to make her fertile again, like the tale with the golden dragon. So before the books Yen is cold, calculating and self-centered, not really caring about anybody, while still believing in the superioirty of the sorcerers and those who can use magic. Much like Philippa and most other sorcerers she thinks that she is accountable to none and that the sorcerers know best what to do.

But there are two elements that changed Yen and her behavior, namely Geralt and Ciri. Geralt gave her back self-assurance and empowered her to some kind of self-love again. She is used to relationships to other sorcerers, which are often just sexual and not really deep. Geralt and Yen are bound by the last wish, but we don't really know if they are just bound together by destiny or if there is more to it. During the books there is a progression in their relationship that goes from "I don't know what's between us" to "I love you". At the end of the books it is pretty much sure that there is much more between Yen and Geralt than just destiny. Ciri is of course both destiny and "social putty" between them. After some time, Ciri becomes the substitute for Yen's own child she can never get. They begin a natural mother-daughter relationship which frees Yen at least partially from her endless cure for her fertility trauma. With Ciri and Geralt she knows two people she actually and truly cares about. So much that she is ready to sacrifice herself for either of them which is a pretty outstanding trait for a sorceress in that world. So much that she would basically do everything for them. So she might still be cold and merciless and arrogant on the outside, and she still might push Geralt quite around, but nevertheless she cares for her "family". That's her no 1 priority now. And we shouldn't forget that Geralt isn't perfect neither. They have both flaws. And Ciri. The Ciri from the books is maybe the most flawed character of them all, but she gets some catharsis at the end of the book, like all of them get. Geralt sacrifices himself for some anderlings although he doesn't have to. Yennefer sacrifices herself in order to save his life although she doesn't have to. A Ciri sacrifices "the world" for rescuing both of them, although the end is open.

So no, Yennefer is no perfect character by far. But if we look at Yen and Triss through Geralt's eyes she is the perfect partner for him, at least in my books. She's the one who truly loves him and would do anything for him and Ciri, leaving behind her former friends and allies, accepting being called traitor and accepting being tortured and killed. What's true love if not that? I don't know but I don't think Triss loves Geralt on the same level. She might be a generally nice person and she might even have a genuine belief in the higher good but for Geralt she is just a nice person he likes. They don't have the history he has with Yen and Ciri, the deep connection with them forged by destiny, suffering and experience alike. And in the end, no matter how troubled, no matter how egoistic, now matter how merciless, cold or arrogant, Yennefer never gave up Geralt or Ciri. It was a long and painful process for her but in the end she knows what's most important for her: family. And if you ask me, a human being can't really find a more worthy and valuable goal in life than living for the family and loved ones and doing everything for them.


See above. That's a good example for the "early book" Yen, only caring about herself and her problem with her infertility. But like I've said before, Ciri and Geralt changed her on a quite fundamental level imho.

ah!, you do see Yen in a healthy perspective, I just saw you trash triss and took the wrong conclusion.
I missjudged you, I am sorry.

I think you "drove home" all the key points in Yen's story really, her early abusive childhood, the sorceress upbringing and the gradual changes throughout her interactions with Geralt, wouldn't say she was as bad as Phillipa, I mean Philippa is either downright dumb in her schemes or just needlessly cruel, Yen was just selfish and ruthless.

I dont share your view that they are "good together" tho, I think that its not enough to have such strong feelings for one another, the saying "opposites attract" is true enough on the passion side, but it takes certain malleability of character for 2 people who clash so strongly to forge a long term steady relationship, honestly when it comes to love, Geralt has the personality of a dildo really... very apathetic, and thoughtless.
not that a long term relationship is required mind you, the in and off passionate dynamic between the two is charming, I just dont find it... erhm "enclosing"?
thats why I liked Yen in the games so much more than in the books, she made a much more clearer attempt to... kind of "fit" with people around her, not just Geralt, she was more understanding even apologetic of when people "opposed" her somewhat extreme pragmatic solutions (like when she corrupted Freya Garden), and the story allows for a good disclosure of "happily ever after" even tho the books makes no hints of that ever happening :(


Triss on the other hand I cannot even comment on without context of the games, not compared to Yen, if Triss never had a shot with Geralt, she wouldn't have grown, much like Yen.
would compare her with other secondary characters like (Keira Metz) at best if that was the case, but she did have the chance with the games, and I think the development "produced" a love interest that "fit" better into a "happily ever after" with Geralt really.
I like Triss the same way I like Jon snow of game of thrones a character that seems weak and secondary but you actually see it grow and fullfill its potential into someone "better".
 
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So, I'm up to the point where Yen has defiled the Holy Garden and I need to go get Uma. I'm leaving the Uma quest while I go round finishing side quests and such, but after the Garden quests I am just wondering, am I the only person thinking Yen is a completely unlikeable person?

Yen is arrogant, closed off, cold, self-absorbed, manipulative, scheming, disrespectful, and completely unrepentant about all of it.

Triss, on the other hand, is a complete sweetheart. She's kind, funny, cheerful, warm, open, helpful, loyal, wears her heart on her sleeve and doesn't ever use Geralts emotions against him the way Yen does right off the bat.

Also, no spoilers past the Garden please.

First off, Yen is a sorceress. They are always protective and secretive in how they work...much like a magician is in real life. Were they not this way, they'd have been burnt at the stake and/ or a victim of another kind. They also have to be secretive and know when to not share information around their own kind...since, you can never now the others intent.
There is of course a bigger picture, too...because of Geralt's Last Wish(referring to the book of the same name), she's left not knowing if their love is genuine, or the work of a curse. You will understand that part of it in a later quest. Also, she is the counterweight to Geralt. Her personality keeps him in check...and she does look out for Geralt and very much loves him, which is something that sort of scares her, being a strong minded individual...it makes her vulnerable. There's also the matter that he screwed her best friend when he had no memories of his past life....and that really digs at her and comes up from time to time.
 
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ah!, you do see Yen in a healthy perspective, I just saw you trash triss and took the wrong conclusion.
I missjudged you, I am sorry.
No problem. I'm glad we could sort that out. :)

I think you "drove home" all the key points in Yen's story really, her early abusive childhood, the sorceress upbringing and the gradual changes throughout her interactions with Geralt, wouldn't say she was as bad as Phillipa, I mean Philippa is either downright dumb in her schemes or just needlessly cruel, Yen was just selfish and ruthless.
I only meant the general behaviour here, the typcial arrogant behaviour of a sorceress who thinks that she is superior to everyone else and who think that she is accountable to nobody.

I dont share your view that they are "good together" tho, I think that its not enough to have such strong feelings for one another, the saying "opposites attract" is true enough on the passion side, but it takes certain malleability of character for 2 people who clash so strongly to forge a long term steady relationship.
not that a long term relationship is required mind you, the in and off passionate dynamic between the two is charming, I just dont find it... erhm "enclosing"?
Well, I think most of their on-off relationship is history in Time of Contempt at the latest. Their relationship gradually but steadily changes during the pentalogy. They get closer and their mutual understanding rises. In the short stories and before the council on Thanedd Geralt couldn't even tell her that he loves her. The night before the big fight on Thanedd island was actually the first time Geralt and Yen told each other that they love each other. For me, that was the end of their on-off relationship and the start of a way to true understanding. And it was Ciri who enabled that, for both of them. I don't think they would ever have gotten that far without Ciri. Maybe their on-off relationship would have continued forever, until one of them finally died. But Ciri was the "social and emotional putty" between them, she gave both of them what they missed (even if they didn't even know what they missed before) and she empowered them both in finding as way to deal with each other without constanstly hurting each other, just by her very existence. Call me a romantic person, but I do believe in love. I do believe that there are feelings and experiences that can bring and stick people together, who seem incompatible. But people can change, at least some. And all of them changed quite a lot during the books, Yennefer, Geralt and Ciri.

thats why I liked Yen in the games so much more than in the books, she made a much more clearer attempt to... kind of "fit" with people around her, not just Geralt, she was more understanding even apologetic of when people "opposed" her somewhat extreme pragmatic solutions (like when she corrupted Freya Garden), and the story allows for a good disclosure of "happily ever after" even tho the books makes no hints of that ever happening :(
I don't disagree here. On the oppsite, I agree with you that Yen got gradually a better and more understanding person during the events of the books. The game does display that well, even though I think it overdid it at some points, while it made Yennefer needlessly cold and arrogant in other situations, almost looking like the short stories Yennefer.

Triss on the other hand I cannot even comment on without context of the games, not compared to Yen, if Triss never had a shot with Geralt, she wouldn't have grown, much like Yen.
would compare her with other secondary characters like (Keira Metz) at best if that was the case, but she did have the chance with the games, and I think the development "produced" a love interest that "fit" better into a "happily ever after" with Geralt really.
I like Triss the same way I like Jon snow of game of thrones a character that seems weak and secondary but you actually see it grow and fullfill its potential into someone "better".
Well, I still have one big problem with Triss when talking about her depiction in the books and the games: that she stayed completely loyal to the lodge although she knows what Ciri thinks of the plans the lodge had for her and although she knows what kind of person Philippa is. Other than Yen she never found the power to clearly stand against the "the end justify the means" philosophy Philippa and the lodge so openly follow. I think that's a huge flaw in her character, especially when you consider that the same philosophy put Geralt in danger before and Ciri in a situation she clearly doesn't want to be. It's also morally questionable that she misused Geralt's amnesia for her own good, not only betraying the friendship with Yennefer, but also destroying trust between her and Geralt and hurting Ciri by driving a wedge in their "patchwork family". I mean, if Triss really believes in some higher goal, she is pretty bad in sacrificing her own feelings for it once she has the power to use Geralt's weekness for her own goods.

I do agree though that Witcher 3 shows a Triss that seems to be a bit changed. A Triss that has "grown up", fighting for a concrete and worthy goal involving real people instead of just loyally following the philosophy of an institution and the will of other sorceresses. The Triss in Witcher 3 seems to be more mature, once she got seperated from the lodge. But it seems that it wasn't her relationship with Geralt that initiated or supported that change. It seems that Geralt is even a bit surprised to find a somewhat different Triss in Novigrad.

And yeah, maybe she would have changed the same way Yen did in the same situation. We don't know though. It is the way it is, with Yen being Ciri's step-mother and Geralt being Ciri's step-father, forged together by destiny, and shared experiences and emotions. It's hard to beat that, really hard. Actually Triss has no chance to compete with that, no matter what she does in the games.

And on a final note, I was never fan of the "happily ever after" vision in many works of art. That's why I liked the end of The Lady of the Lake with its open ending that could be interpreted in different ways and that concluded the events and chracter relationships quite well, like the Ouroboros that bites itself in the tail ;)
 
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We don't know though. It is the way it is, with Yen being Ciri's step-mother and Geralt being Ciri's step-father, forged together by destiny, and shared experiences and emotions. It's hard to beat that, really hard. Actually Triss has no chance to compete with that, no matter what she does in the games.

I wish more people would read all five Witcher books to see that but unfortunately it won't happen here. Anyway thank you very much for your opinion and comments Scholdar.452.
 
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