Immersion is subjective depending on the individual taste. Is cd Projekt that attempted to pass the mantra that first person game are more immersive forgetting that you can be blunt as you want but if for someone first person is not immersive you won't make it change idea if you keep yelling in his face.
why is it a loot shooter for you?
because someone told you so?
i did play the whole game with the pistol you get at the start Dying Night, because i think its the best pistol
and gear?
well.. i play as a ghost with some hacking... who needs gear?
and like i did say quite often here.. lots of quests have consequences.. just not on a save the world style
Take the sinnerman quest... and dont tell me it didnt have an impact on you...
because nailing someone to the cross is something spezial...
or you didnt nail him... or he didnt whant to get naild anymore..
there are lots of choices for quests if you wanna find them
and ofc the end is always the same...
same goes for BG3.. or do you belive there will be a different outcome?
choice is always an illusion
then even in Pen&Paper the DM sets the bounderys in which you can progress, and the end of the story is mostly set in stone... or writing...
take curse of strahd
the DM decides what will happen due to the Tarokka cards... nothing can change that
and in the end you kill strahd, or he kills you
there is no changing that, no matter what you did
This reminds me a thread on the old black isle boards where I argued that leisure suit larry was a RPG where you play the role of an aging hipster trying to get lucky.
Yes, you can play a protagonist dying of a condition that they are desperate to fix! Nothing like Cyberpunk 2077.
true... kinda the same story...
and the brainslug dose also talk to you... just like Silverhand dose...rofl
i didnt think of that
CHoice in CYberpunk are not meaningful for the most part. It the illusion of the choice. You can chose to don't nail certain someone on the cross but he will still die in the end.
Why is a looter shooter? Well it has the same gameplay of borderlands. Has side activities more common in shooters than in RPGS it has the itimization that is a crossbreed between witcher 3 and again Borderlands. It is a looter shooter no more no less.
Bg3?
You can save the Grove.
You can kill the Grove.
You can fake to work for the Druids of the Grove then betray them.
You can fake to work for the Absolute cultists then Betray them.
Tou can sneak on the grove and discover the secret about the one commanding the druid.
You can use your skill to understand the history of the grove and reveal the secrets of it.
You Trick and Deiceve npc to obtain what you want.
Every single quest has different outcomes.
Npc can live or die. Npc can even decide to help you out.
Even in this little part alone i mentioned you can see how much freedom of roleplay you have. And such choices change completely how a whole act is played. The game has a lot of replayability and take in account the abilities your char have even the race your char is.
For example being a member of a certain race will put you in better or worse disposition with some Npcs. Some npcs that could be friendly could turn hostile to you bringing you to face a spiky situation that you can still get out from it if you play it smartly.
You can restart with a new race and classe and see wide differences on how you approach a situation. And the tadpole is a mere instrument for a big narration more you progress more you discover those are not meant to kill you at all wich is even worse.
Why is a looter shooter? Well it has the same gameplay of borderlands. Has side activities more common in shooters than in RPGS it has the itimization that is a crossbreed between witcher 3 and again Borderlands. It is a looter shooter no more no less.
Bg3?
You can save the Grove.
You can kill the Grove.
You can fake to work for the Druids of the Grove then betray them.
You can fake to work for the Absolute cultists then Betray them.
Tou can sneak on the grove and discover the secret about the one commanding the druid.
You can use your skill to understand the history of the grove and reveal the secrets of it.
You Trick and Deiceve npc to obtain what you want.
Every single quest has different outcomes.
Npc can live or die. Npc can even decide to help you out.
Even in this little part alone i mentioned you can see how much freedom of roleplay you have. And such choices change completely how a whole act is played. The game has a lot of replayability and take in account the abilities your char have even the race your char is.
For example being a member of a certain race will put you in better or worse disposition with some Npcs. Some npcs that could be friendly could turn hostile to you bringing you to face a spiky situation that you can still get out from it if you play it smartly.
You can restart with a new race and classe and see wide differences on how you approach a situation. And the tadpole is a mere instrument for a big narration more you progress more you discover those are not meant to kill you at all wich is even worse.
CP2077 is closer to the technical definition of an RPG than Witcher 3.
Cyberware and perks alone can fundamentally change what your character is capable of doing and how you approach combat encounters. At level 1, movement is slow, horizontal and kind of clunky. Actions like sprinting, vaulting and sliding preclude you from performing other actions like shooting or reloading.
Well with perks and Cyberware you can go from a clunky planar shooter to a 3D Cyberninja. You can shoot while dodging, dodge while jumping while in bullet time and speed boosted bunny hop like in Quake. You can reload while sliding, double jump like Genji from Overwatch, aerial takedown like Adam Jensen from Deus Ex: HR and parkour like Faith from Mirror's Edge with all the movement tech allowing you to do jump tricks akin to kick glitching.
You describe your character in numbers and the numbers determine what your character is capable of.
RPG has both a technical and a general meaning. In the pre-computer era, to roleplay is to make believe - to pretend you are someone you are not in a place that doesn't exist except in your shared imagination. Me and my sister pretending our couch was a space ship as kids and laying out cushions on the floor for our space walk is role play in the general sense.
In the pre-computer era, the technical definition of a roleplaying game is one where the limits of your shared, imagined world and characters are clearly defined in rules and numbers. The DM (Dungeon Master) is the final arbiter of the rules and they run the campaign, arbitrate disagreements and present choices to the players. In the computer era, the game developer has become the DM.
Just like in table top RPGs, there are many types of DM and many types of campaign depending on how much control the DM wishes to relinquish to players. There are DM's who run very strict campaigns and rigidly enforce rules in the service of a coherent story. There are DMs who let players get away with anything they can imagine. The more agency the DM gives to the player, the harder it is to tell a coherent story and the players become agents of chaos.
In the computer era, many games have technical RPG systems and design but obscure them in code. Hide them behind a partition screen as it were. This includes games we don't think of as RPGs but even in games like SOMA you are imagining you are Simon Jarrett. None of your choices have any material consequence to the story, but on a personal and emotional level, thinking about the choice has great scope for self reflection and contemplation. It made me re-think what it means to be alive. It fulfills the general meaning of an RPG if not the technical one.
The only reason to use the technical definition of an RPG now is to easily find the games you want to play. So if I go to the RPG section on steam, I am not expecting SOMA. I am expecting multiple choice, stat grinders like Divinity: Original Sin 2 where the developer exposes game mechanics to the player and allows me to change the rules of the game. I get to be an agent of chaos in Larian's world.
But beyond this, there is no point in making the distinction. Its like people arguing over musical sub-genres like it somehow matters beyond finding the style of music you like. Nobody gives a shit if you insist its Tech Step instead of Neurofunk. Its all just Drum and Bass anyway.
Cyberware and perks alone can fundamentally change what your character is capable of doing and how you approach combat encounters. At level 1, movement is slow, horizontal and kind of clunky. Actions like sprinting, vaulting and sliding preclude you from performing other actions like shooting or reloading.
Well with perks and Cyberware you can go from a clunky planar shooter to a 3D Cyberninja. You can shoot while dodging, dodge while jumping while in bullet time and speed boosted bunny hop like in Quake. You can reload while sliding, double jump like Genji from Overwatch, aerial takedown like Adam Jensen from Deus Ex: HR and parkour like Faith from Mirror's Edge with all the movement tech allowing you to do jump tricks akin to kick glitching.
You describe your character in numbers and the numbers determine what your character is capable of.
RPG has both a technical and a general meaning. In the pre-computer era, to roleplay is to make believe - to pretend you are someone you are not in a place that doesn't exist except in your shared imagination. Me and my sister pretending our couch was a space ship as kids and laying out cushions on the floor for our space walk is role play in the general sense.
In the pre-computer era, the technical definition of a roleplaying game is one where the limits of your shared, imagined world and characters are clearly defined in rules and numbers. The DM (Dungeon Master) is the final arbiter of the rules and they run the campaign, arbitrate disagreements and present choices to the players. In the computer era, the game developer has become the DM.
Just like in table top RPGs, there are many types of DM and many types of campaign depending on how much control the DM wishes to relinquish to players. There are DM's who run very strict campaigns and rigidly enforce rules in the service of a coherent story. There are DMs who let players get away with anything they can imagine. The more agency the DM gives to the player, the harder it is to tell a coherent story and the players become agents of chaos.
In the computer era, many games have technical RPG systems and design but obscure them in code. Hide them behind a partition screen as it were. This includes games we don't think of as RPGs but even in games like SOMA you are imagining you are Simon Jarrett. None of your choices have any material consequence to the story, but on a personal and emotional level, thinking about the choice has great scope for self reflection and contemplation. It made me re-think what it means to be alive. It fulfills the general meaning of an RPG if not the technical one.
The only reason to use the technical definition of an RPG now is to easily find the games you want to play. So if I go to the RPG section on steam, I am not expecting SOMA. I am expecting multiple choice, stat grinders like Divinity: Original Sin 2 where the developer exposes game mechanics to the player and allows me to change the rules of the game. I get to be an agent of chaos in Larian's world.
But beyond this, there is no point in making the distinction. Its like people arguing over musical sub-genres like it somehow matters beyond finding the style of music you like. Nobody gives a shit if you insist its Tech Step instead of Neurofunk. Its all just Drum and Bass anyway.
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not quite.. most also have vulnerabilities
it just dosnt matter because of your insane damageoutput
And Final Fantasy 10 is a real RPG, and while BG3 offer choices and changes the world just means that people have different design ideas on how they want to make their RPG. No matter how many people froth at the mouth arguing the finer points of what is an RPG, you will never redefine what an RPG is. The fact of the matter is wizardy 1 is an RPG, and so is Final Fantasy 14, and so Cyberpunk 2077. I think Larian makes good RPGs too. But they focus on choice, tactical combat.
From Wikipedia
A role-playing game (sometimes spelled roleplaying game;[1][2] abbreviated RPG) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.[3] Actions taken within many games succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines.[4]
Wikipedia is a source of information however is information brought mostly from the users and because of that it can be very generic and not cover all the point.
JRPG are a gerne in theyrself. This is why the often get separated from RPG. Final fantasy 10 is the classical depiction of what a JRPG is.
JRPG are often Linear.
Jrpg have often a fixed protagonist.
Jrpg have often a deep stat progression but that's about it.
They always been a separate genre not to be confused with WRPG.
If we can argue Cyberpunk 2077 then Far CRY is an RPG as well. The games may be different but both have stories character and some form of progression and both are not RPGs.
And again RPG used to be very defined. Till EA at the time of Da2 to justify the backlash invented the meme phrase as: Define what a rpg is.
It is what is is.
Is just a common phrases PR invented in order to damage control backlash and justify the bastardization of a genre.
But who plays rpg from quite a while.
the times of: Bg-bg2-icw-icw2-fallout-and i could go on and on.
Know well what a rpg is.
That's a weird way to say RPG or not.
To me as a lifelong gamer, an RPG is a game where you can create a character who is customized to the player's like.
No it's not
wikipedia: is a tertiary source of information. I.E. they need references, in many ways its one of the betters sources of colloquial truth.
Final Fantasy X - Wikipedia
First sentence reads...
Final Fantasy X[a] is a role-playing video game developed and published by Square as the tenth main entry in the Final Fantasy series.
JRPG, is a sub-distinction people have made to point out non-rules.
i get it, we both like/love BG3
iam a big D&D fan since Eye of the Beholder or Pool of radiance... i did start Pen&Paper with AD&D2nd
dosnt change the fact that the ranting on that forum is as big as it is over here (but didnt take a look for quite a while now)
because people arnt satisfied
but still..
stuff you do in Cyberpunk dose have an impact
your just not the hero of the world..
your a smal gun for hire that dosnt even get into the afterlive at the start
and most of the stuff you do is on a small scale..
or on a big scale if you think of the Dream On quests and Mr Blue Eyes..
which most people only spoted when they got the hints..
and what an impcat it has
or you can "wipe out" the voodoo boys or at last cut the heads off, and that in different ways, or you "work" with them
and for cyberpunk or shadowrun, thats how the world is
you as a player cant change anything, your just a chesspice for the greater players in the game
at last that my opinion
i also didnt thought, that you could make an impact on arasaka...
but depending on your choices there is a big impact on them
You are not the hero of the word but that don't excuse linearity of stories with no concequeces. Bloodlines you were not the hero of the world either but the game actually reflected your roleplay and the choices you made. New Vegas you were not the hero of the world however you could take decision and based on your decision things around you evolved.
The more personal scope of a story don't justify linearity. And no i know well Cyberpunk because i play from the pen and paper from years. You do have choices as in any pen and paper rpg. Is just that this game don't gives you choices that are meaningful. Even in how you face a situation you basically have only two choices. BLAST OUT or SNEAKY NETRUNNER.
The only quest that have different choices and concequences is the Maelstorm one that guess what? It was the one conveniently showcased in a gameplay video. But even there all this choices lead to nowhere but some minor outcome with no relevance.
Wiping out the wodoo boys had not concequences. Sparing Sandsquatch has not concequences and i could go on and on.
THe only concequences you have are in the ending and pretty much depends on how you worship or not Jhonny.
As wikipedia... Not relevant for gaming.
* Judy's quests ending
* Panam's quest ending
* Maelstrom quests ending
* Sinnerman's quests ending
* The fact you can end any assassination quest with killing the target or kidnapping them
* Us Crack/Kerry's ending
* Kill or Spare the Voodoo Boys/Side with Netwatch
* Save or let Goro die.
* The four endings of the game
No, the random monster attack equivalents don't have multiple endings but you have huge numbers of choice sin the game.
Save Brick and he'll help you later in the game.
Now take that list and compare it with all the witcher 3 choices in the main quest and sidequest and see how that list is completely small compared of it.
Again Those choices presented are minor things most of them have no outcomes at all.
Save or let Goro die? What it change? Goro dies then you have another npc to repeat a similiar line to you to the ending.
Panam and Judy? Again minor things.
Killing or Kidnap.? Again pointless the target will get terminated anyways.
THose are minor things that may offer some choice but offer nothing relevant the story goes on it does not change it does not open new pathways as it was promised.
Again Those choices presented are minor things most of them have no outcomes at all.
Save or let Goro die? What it change? Goro dies then you have another npc to repeat a similiar line to you to the ending.
Panam and Judy? Again minor things.
Killing or Kidnap.? Again pointless the target will get terminated anyways.
THose are minor things that may offer some choice but offer nothing relevant the story goes on it does not change it does not open new pathways as it was promised.
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Honestly? Witcher 3 is blown out of the water.
* Save the kids or save the Bloody Baron's wife
* Make the Queen or King of the Isles
* Kill the Mad King or not
Honestly, most of the sidequests don't have any choices whatsoever. They're just scripted, which is FINE. That doesn't take away from the RPG elements at all.