Is this game an rpg?

[Arcafonk]

Compass is really important : each time you see that point on top of graphics telling you "go that direction 253m away" is a reminder that you're not supposed to crawl at the place you're actually in. This also works against exploration.

And actually, it's rigth, there is nothing to do there, since there is nothing to do outside of missions in this game.

There is no reward for exploration in CP77 : every point of interest was unlocked 200m away, and no NPC will show you how to play dice in the street, or anything like that. Half of shops have no game purpose, and restaurants are useless (because they distribute useless items in a random made list, that have all the same effects on top of it).

No reward = no reason to explore.

Where are the rewards then ? Under that orange point on top of graphics, 253m away. So the player naturally goes there. Even lore,s tory, or even NPC who talks are hidden under these points.

THIS particularly wasn't the case with BG. And / or TW2, TW3 : you found rewards, life or lore or items where you were, not under huge flashing clues.

 

[kinna]

Compass is really important : each time you see that point on top of graphics telling you "go that direction 253m away" is a reminder that you're not supposed to crawl at the place you're actually in. This also works against exploration.

And actually, it's rigth, there is nothing to do there, since there is nothing to do outside of missions in this game.

I agree that waypoint marker should be optional.
Actually, there is nothing to do outside of quests in BG.
I have found hidden things that are not marked on the map in CP2077

 

[Arcafonk]

...mostly new guns that will expire within 20m of character progression IF they are better than the one you use and IF you specialized V with that stuff...
This, or a new ugly helmet.

Hurray ?

 

[Niwifox]

In my opinion, an RPG needs to have a strong emphasis on combat, requiring you to develop your character's abilities to overcome more difficult challenges as you progress through the game. Cyberpunk 2077 has very few combat encounters and many main jobs only require you to interact with characters. Even if you don't develop your character, you can still complete many main jobs easily. At times, the game feels like a visual novel or a point-and-click adventure. I'd say you spend roughly 80% of the time exploring the world and interacting with characters, and 20% of the time fighting enemies. It is a very narrative-driven adventure type of game in my eyes, and I'm perfectly okay with that. It makes the game very unique.

 

[Arcafonk]

You're not exploring a game in which the leads are given for free. Leads are supposed to be rewards for exploration.

Gameloop is mission->mission->mission->sell stuff->mission->mission->mission->sell stuff.
There is no place for exploration there.

This is the exact thing that makes "CP77 = not an RPG" in my book.

We agree on the genre though. CP77 is a "quadruple A never-done-before" deluxe narrative adventure game.

 

[kinna]

...mostly new guns that will expire within 20m of character progression IF they are better than the one you use and IF you specialized V with that stuff...
This, or a new ugly helmet.

Hurray ?

Legendary monowire, cool looking pants, stuff like that. What does it matter, there are still stuff to find, just because you don't like it does not make it any less meaningful.

Post automatically merged: Jan 29, 2021

Compass is really important : each time you see that point on top of graphics telling you "go that direction 253m away" is a reminder that you're not supposed to crawl at the place you're actually in. This also works against exploration.

And actually, it's rigth, there is nothing to do there, since there is nothing to do outside of missions in this game.

There is no reward for exploration in CP77 : every point of interest was unlocked 200m away, and no NPC will show you how to play dice in the street, or anything like that. Half of shops have no game purpose, and restaurants are useless (because they distribute useless items in a rand

THIS particularly wasn't the case with BG. And / or TW2, TW3 : you found rewards, life or lore or items where you were, not under huge flashing clues.

You're not exploring a game in which the leads are given for free. Leads are supposed to be rewards for exploration.

Gameloop is mission->mission->mission->sell stuff->mission->mission->mission->sell stuff.
There is no place for exploration there.

Same is true for BG. You are told to go to Friendly Arm Inn and from there to Nashkel. Sure you can skip FAI but in the end you are told to advance the plot you need to go to Nashkel. And from there to Beregost to find the bandit camp and so on and so forth. Presentation is different, end result the same.

 

[Arcafonk]

This is too easy. Each game having a start screen and rolling credits are not using the same mecanics. You're de-zooming those games and told yourself "well in both cases I was told a story so they serves the same goal", when I talk about the means to fill that goal. Just zoom in.

For a start, in BG you're are told, if memory serves, to go "east of there", with absolutly no indication of the distance. Each time you have that flashing star on the map, while in the way to it, you have random events that stops the party. Or you can decide to have this conversation with this character or not. Or try to steal from this house because some random dude hinted you it was filled with jewels.

In CP77, the only characters you can speak with are greeting vendors (which, reminder, have no game purpose other than selling stuff buying your stuff. Trash cans does the same job btw.). All the other dialogs are hidden in missions, aka atomic content.
Rare exceptions : at the end of an arc, for exemple with Panam & friends.

Unlocking NPC having conversation feels like being the supreme reward in CP77 when it should be a pre-requisite to a rpg world.

There is no NPC to direct your exploration toward this or this point in particular. Therefor, with no direction hinted, all "exploration" a player makes is just brownian motion to me.

Notice how TW3's use of rumors is vastly superior to CP77 there : NPC random one-lines gives the player actual hints for exploration. NPC talks about the world in TW3. In CP77 they are telling "hey fuck off", and only mostly those "hey fuck off", because of an unexplicable genericity of the design of their dialogs there (this, outside of mission's guard talks). CP77 tried to copy GTA(Vice City) there where it should have sticked to the rumor system CDPR invented for TW1.

In BG, players are given the agency to give themselves self-made exploration goals. In CP77, they roll dice by brownian motion, or follow a well-lit & taged track to the next POI. Direct consequence : one is an RPG, not the other one. One player explores the game's geography, one player explores the game's map markers (or roll dice).
In one game, the player forges himself its goals, in the other one he follows a story. One player "writes" its story (RPG), one player "reads" its story (narrative game).
Hence our "CP77 = AAAA narrative game". Take a narrative game, put 1km of map between each plot point, put a random helmet halfway. Make it AAAA adding vehicles, guns, stealth, 3D scenery (...) and this is it. I call this uninspired, very mecanical / industrial gamedesign. CDPR, on top of many qualities, were the champions of human gamedesign before. Ppl are grumpy because they don't fully recognize them here. Or this is just me.

In the end, all of this transforms NC into a huge hub and removes the open world : what do you see as "open" there ? Everything is closed behind mission markers ? Pretty much the definition of a hub, no ?

Ppl are also grumpy because they were sold an openworld RPG, when they end with a narrative game set in a (very large & detailed) hub.

 

[batouyukinawa]

CP77 is 10x more linear than TW2. TW2 have 2 path on each chapter, 3 chapters, with multiple choices in between. CP77 have one path with only one branching occuring during voodoo boys that quickly rejoin the main story corridor CP77 is, and that' it.

CP77 is more complex than Disco Elyseum but Disco is a true rpg where choices and exploration matters where CP doesn't. Complexity have nothing to do there. It's like saying AAA are by essence better games than non AAA. And I would not say that crafting a Red Engine from nothing is a less complex task than filling CP77's pre-existant Red Engine with broken mecanics (if I want to be cruel with CP77).

And the most important thing with TW2 is people doesn't actually hesitate to qualify it as an RPG.

Refer to my previous posting about the choice and consequence system. Your interpretation to the lack of choice in this game is most likely due to your misunderstanding of how choice is ultimately solidified through your actions. Choices are not made at the end. They are made in the beginning and throughout the quest. So it works more like this.

A > B > A = A or A > A > B = A so even if you wanted B to happen unless you made decisions in alignment with B you're still going to get an A result. So if you save scum at the end it doesn't matter what decisions you make you're going to get A no matter what you choose. This results in you thinking nothing matters and A always will happen.

There are 4 endings to this game with one last secret ending. Some of the endings don't even involve the main quest line.

You can change quite a bit of how things go down, it's not CDPR's fault you're too impatient to play the game more than once to experience all the content.

Furthermore, my point still stands. Making multiple branching paths in a game like W2 pales in comparison to size and complexity of a game like CP. Divinity Original Sin II has crazy amounts of choice because it takes less time to develop that content in an isometric point and click RPG. I don't think you realize how flipping complex a game like CP is. It's basically the most complex engine out there right now that we know of.

You can beat Cyberpunk 2077 without finishing the main quest

It was recently revealed that players will be able to officially complete Cyberpunk 2077 without finishing the game's main quest.

www.vg247.com

 

[simon_brooke]

There is no reward for exploration in CP77 : every point of interest was unlocked 200m away, and no NPC will show you how to play dice in the street, or anything like that. Half of shops have no game purpose, and restaurants are useless (because they distribute useless items in a random made list, that have all the same effects on top of it).

This is nonsense. Yes, it's true that most NPCs have no dialog, and most shops aren't usable. But if you ignore the journal and the map and just wander, you will keep tripping over interesting stuff. A lot of the real fun I've had in this game is looking at something, and thinking 'what's that'; and wandering over and finding something really cool. Most of my meetings with the Zen Master have happened this way, for example; I haven't 'done his quest', at all.

Post automatically merged: Jan 29, 2021

In CP77, the only characters you can speak with are greeting vendors (which, reminder, have no game purpose other than selling stuff buying your stuff. Trash cans does the same job btw.). All the other dialogs are hidden in missions, aka atomic content.
Rare exceptions : at the end of an arc, for exemple with Panam & friends.

Unlocking NPC having conversation feels like being the supreme reward in CP77 when it should be a pre-requisite to a rpg world.

OK, here you have a justifiable complaint.

Yes, of course you should be able to hold a conversation with every NPC. Every random NPC in the street should be able to direct you to the streets nearby (or else say something like "sorry, Choom, I'm a stranger here too"). Every NPC should have an opinion about the weather. Most NPCs should know what the local gangs are, and have an opinion on how dangerous the streets are. Most NPCs will know where the nearest gun shop or ripper doc is. An NPC who is crouching down with their hands in the air should know what's frightened them and roughly where it is. Some NPCs should know quite a lot about the game lore. Some should have strong opinions about how the city is being run and who the best candidate for mayor is.

And, of course, some NPCs – especially gang members and police – should be hostile and refuse to converse with you, at least some of the time.

However, there's no current game in which this sort of thing works. One of the things I want to do is to take a large game like Cyberpunk or Skyrim or Witcher III, and mod it so that every NPC has some dialog of this kind – not by storing a separate dialog tree for each NPC and certainly not by having voice acting for each NPC, but by procedurally generating dialog. This means that to voice it I'll need to use text-to-speech generation, and that may get a bit uncanny-valley-ish, but I think it's at least worth trying!

 

[Arcafonk]

Refer to my previous posting about the choice and consequence system. Your interpretation to the lack of choice in this game is most likely due to your misunderstanding of how choice is ultimately solidified through your actions. Choices are not made at the end. They are made in the beginning and throughout the quest. So it works more like this.

A > B > A = A or A > A > B = A so even if you wanted B to happen unless you made decisions in alignment with B you're still going to get an A result. So if you save scum at the end it doesn't matter what decisions you make you're going to get A no matter what you choose. This results in you thinking nothing matters and A always will happen.

We really don't talk about the same thing. Possibilities opened by a given game doesn't belongs in the "choices & consequences" I talk about.

When I talk about choices & consequences, I talk about two things :
- branching in the story
- integration to your story of the diverses actions you makes in the game.

If V could fly in a new DLC, (in what I speak of) it is not adding a choice. This adds a choice only if this makes the told story different.
(in what you speak of) it adds a choice since the player can choose to fly, walk or drive.

AKA if shooting the dude OR hacking the dude nets the same result in the story, then it is not of the "choices" I speak of.
If shooting the dude tells you a different story than hacking him, THEN it is a choice, because the action of the player "writes" the story.

I'm talking about the scenario's possibilities. Not the game's there.

You can change quite a bit of how things go down, it's not CDPR's fault you're too impatient to play the game more than once to experience all the content.

I don't understand yourself. I'm not impatient, I allready can experience 95% of the content with one go ? Aprt from killing voodoo boy or let them live, what changes ? Dialog ?
I will still experience the same game, no ?

Furthermore, my point still stands. Making multiple branching paths in a game like W2 pales in comparison to size and complexity of a game like CP. Divinity Original Sin II has crazy amounts of choice because it takes less time to develop that content in an isometric point and click RPG. I don't think you realize how flipping complex a game like CP is. It's basically the most complex engine out there right now that we know of.

GTA is more complex. BOTW is more complex. RDR2 is more complex. AC: Odyssey is more complex (...)

Anyway...
I would have used part of the side mission budget to have choices that matters, on top of few needed adjustements.
I agree with you they lacked time and cut choices have to be made. We all see the bugs and quickly backed features.

BUT

That kind of decisions is also made early dev. They never wanted it to prevail. So the goal was never to do better than TW3 in that departement (unlike what they advertissed).

Post automatically merged: Jan 30, 2021

But if you ignore the journal and the map and just wander, you will keep tripping over interesting stuff.

Aka "brownian motion". This is passive exploration.
Willing a passive behaviour from the player (called "comtemplation" in gamedesign) always cost agency.
There is no active exploration in that game. Not "a few" : none. Because non-mission NPC never gives you hints, because they cannot talk to you.
And some would say "hey when you see Traumateam and..." => it's still brownian exploration. You seen them because you were there. You did not come from 1km because someone told you a rumour.
=> you don't feel rewarded because you guessed a rumour rigth, like in TW3. In CP77, you just feel lucky.

This is just more luck on top of some loot-luck.

Also, favorizing luck feelings in a Cyberpunk setting is a strange design choice.

However, there's no current game in which this sort of thing works.

The Witcher 1, 2 and 3 trhough rumours. GTA IV, V, RDR2 also works. They al have not ideal systems but works. In most JRPG, all NPC have something to say. Ex: FF12.

Ideal systems (but unvoiced by design) : Heaven's Vault.
I wouldn't disagree if casual NPC chat were to be text only btw.

(sidenote Simon, if that's you in the avatar, I'm kind of your clone. Got same silver long hair Let's call us Johnnys Silverhairs )

 

[zqfmgb123]

It's not an RPG. There's no meaningful choices to make in this game. If people consider this game to be an RPG, they'd have to consider every game to be an RPG.

 

[batouyukinawa]

Alright bro, no choices. Got it

 

[eLmeFist0]

You might be overselling the consequences a little: only permanent consequence I'm aware of is not getting one very short sidequest from that couple you can rescue. You won't meet any other hostage at the company HQ and can't revisit the manufacturing plant ever again.
Your actions during "The Pickup" in Cyberpunk have greater consequences.

Most of your other points are not exactly about RPG features, but sandbox features, to which I have no problem admitting that yes, Cyberpunk is indeed not a sandbox game. Not even a little bit.

As for TW3 and side activities, well, all except for Gwent are present in Cyberpunk in some form. You have boxing, you have races (unimpressive because of the non-existent AI, but they are still in the game), Cyberpunk version of treasure hunts is there and it's called "Reported Crimes" (you visit one site, find the datapad, read it, and you're directed to another site where cache is hidden).
Prostitutes are present in Cyberpunk, too. You can be disappointed about their (4 compared to 6 in TW3), but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

All of that pales in comparison to Cyberpunk. Both in sheer number (sword/signs/alchemy = 3 compared to body/reflexes/tech/intelligence/cool = 5), number of way you can mix them and effect they have on gameplay - potions, oils and signs are just supplement to swordplay in TW3; in Cyberpunk, you can finish almost any quest using only hacks. No weapons. Or you can draw shotgun and just blast everyone; TW3 doesn't offer anything like that;

you said:
You might be overselling the consequences a little: only permanent consequence I'm aware of is not getting one very short sidequest from that couple you can rescue. You won't meet any other hostage at the company HQ and can't revisit the manufacturing plant ever again.
Your actions during "The Pickup" in Cyberpunk have greater consequences.

That was just an example. The game is riddle with consequences and choices.
Going to the clinic to alter the biochip makes the Namir fight much more dificult, and saving Faridah will help you later în game
The way you choose to deal with Wayne Haas has consequences.
If you choose to use pheromones on Haas Adam seez the narcotics in trash behind Haas desk. Adam uses this to blackmail Haas to get into station.

When you get back to Detroit, when you reach the ground floor of building Haas is waiting for you in lobby. He tells you he lost his job because of you did and tries to shoot you.
If you don't use pheremones then he will point the gun at you, you can then make him more angry by telling him that he isn't your problem or you can tell him you're sorry, that your antics got him into trouble and that you would put in a word for him in the Sarif security team. This results in Haas ceasing to be angry.

If you choose the last option, Haas's body can be found in Panchea, outside the room Sarif and his people have secured themselves in.

Haas never has this problem if you sneak into Police station. But makes the game more hard for u.
If you did not have the pheromon perk you have no choice but to sneak into police station.
But if u do not have the strong arm perk you u cannot get above the fence without fetching barrels and boxes from some distance.

There are multiple outcomes from dealing the hostage taker.
If he escapes and dont kill the hostage he gives you a code for the fema entrance.
If you tranq him he gets in the jail in police basement.
The game is full with this choices and consequences which gives the game great variability. Make a joke of cyberpunk 2077 with its few choices and consequences.

You say:
Most of your other points are not exactly about RPG features, but sandbox features, to which I have no problem admitting that yes, Cyberpunk is indeed not a sandbox game. Not even a little bit.

Having great, complex conversation system is not RPG element?

How having more freedom does make a game more RPG?
It means you have more variability to role play to make the playthrough feel more you own.

You underestimate the fact the loot can make or break an RPG.
In Gothic and Deus Ex HR loot is very important to gameplay can make the big diference in the gameplay from dificulty to the way you go about doing things.
Cyberpunk is too easy, ai is broken, perks are mostly meaningless, loot you change to often and becomes meaningless making choice and role play also irrelevant.
Like in borderlands. Felt like choosing different styles of play its irelevant.

you say:
As for TW3 and side activities, well, all except for Gwent are present in Cyberpunk in some form. You have boxing, you have races (unimpressive because of the non-existent AI, but they are still in the game), Cyberpunk version of treasure hunts is there and it's called "Reported Crimes" (you visit one site, find the datapad, read it, and you're directed to another site where cache is hidden).
Prostitutes are present in Cyberpunk, too. You can be disappointed about their (4 compared to 6 in TW3), but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
All of that pales in comparison to Cyberpunk. Both in sheer number (sword/signs/alchemy = 3 compared to body/reflexes/tech/intelligence/cool = 5), number of way you can mix them and effect they have on gameplay - potions, oils and signs are just supplement to swordplay in TW3; in Cyberpunk, you can finish almost any quest using only hacks. No weapons. Or you can draw shotgun and just blast everyone; TW3 doesn't offer anything like that;

My bad about the prostitutes. I did not knew they were in the game. Never encounter one. Nor races. In Witcher 3 you had whole brothels with interiors.
The activities are almost nonexistent, poorly weakly made. If you did not tell me I would not have know by just playing the game.
The activities are far superior in Witcher 3.

Whicher 3 clearly wins in open world activities.
Whicher 3 clearly wins in choice and influence în the world.
Whicher 3 loses in the build and aproaching a fight. I dont feel that it pales in comparison. Its just more hard to notice the complexity of builds and aproach to fighting in Witcher 3.
Customization its won by Witcher 3 because you could see your character in 3d outside menu. You can upgrade your horse. You can change apearence face and hair at barbers.
The devs called cyberpunk 2077 themselves action adventure while Witcher 3 is clearly called by them rpg.

If we are really honest Witcher 3 is more an RPG then Cyberpunk 2077.
If we are really honest Deus Ex HR is more an RPG then Cyberpunk 2077.
If we are really honest Witcher 3 is less an RPG then Gothic 2 NOTR, Diablo, Path of Exile, Vampire Bloodlines.
If we are really honest Cyberpunk is just a pale RPG when comparing with above games.

 

[batouyukinawa]

W3 also came out 5 years ago, lets compare the two when CP has been out for 5 years.

[...]

 

[Cyberjunk1999]

W3 also came out 5 years ago, lets compare the two when CP has been out for 5 years.

[...]

well i care because they got my money, sold a broken product and refused refunding it.

edit: now the part is missing where you wrote no one cares and shut up, dunno if this was an edit or moderation.

 

[Guest 3847602]

@eLmeFist0
Ok, I've already conceded on the previous page in my reply to @Arcafonk that Cyberpunk is lacking in having consequences that directly affect main story missions.
And yeah, those are far better examples of choice and consequences in HR.
But, imo, Cyberpunk handles its ending better than either HR or TW3.

Having great, complex conversation system is not RPG element?

It is. Thing is, in HR, in 90% of cases it amounts to whether you'll have to fight the person you're conversing with or be able to convince them. Just like in Cyberpunk. There are few examples in both games where conversations can have one more outcome, but that's it. Both games would lose convincingly to let's say Dragon Age: Origins.

How having more freedom does make a game more RPG?
It means you have more variability to role play to make the playthrough feel more you own.

Freedom is great. But the example you gave is freedom to play as pathological thief or a serial killer. Cyberpunk is a narrative driven game, V is reasonably well-defined protagonist, not a blank-slate. That's why I said it's not a sandbox.

If we are really honest Witcher 3 is more an RPG then Cyberpunk 2077.

Agree to disagree.

If we are really honest Deus Ex HR is more an RPG then Cyberpunk 2077.

They are about the same in my eyes, but I can see how HR might be more of an RPG to you.

If we are really honest Witcher 3 is less an RPG then Gothic 2 NOTR, Diablo, Path of Exile, Vampire Bloodlines.

It is definitely less of an RPG than Gothic 2 or VTMB, it is a completely different type of RPG than Diablo or Path of Exile. Few pages ago you had people arguing that Diablo and its lookalikes do not deserve the label "RPG"...

 

[Arcafonk]

Few pages ago you had people arguing that Diablo and its lookalikes do not deserve the label "RPG"...

That debate existed in p&p rpg 15 years ago (the Forge debate with gamism/simulationism/narativism).
Using/deforming the Forge classification, I'd say Diablo is a gamist rpg, TW3 a sim rpg, and Heaven's Vault would be in narativist rpgs.
The Forge tells classification just depends of which approach of exploration/immersion those games have.

Explore / immerse in rules / tactics = gamism
Explore / immerse in genre / esthetic = simulationism
Explore / immerse in story = narativism.

CP77 would be classified as a sim rpg for people wishing to genre it as a rpg.

PS - this is 15 years old game theory. Things evoluted since.

 

[eLmeFist0]

@eLmeFist0
Ok, I've already conceded on the previous page in my reply to @Arcafonk that Cyberpunk is lacking in having consequences that directly affect main story missions.
And yeah, those are far better examples of choice and consequences in HR.
But, imo, Cyberpunk handles its ending better than either HR or TW3.

It is. Thing is, in HR, in 90% of cases it amounts to whether you'll have to fight the person you're conversing with or be able to convince them. Just like in Cyberpunk. There are few examples in both games where conversations can have one more outcome, but that's it. Both games would lose convincingly to let's say Dragon Age: Origins.

Freedom is great. But the example you gave is freedom to play as pathological thief or a serial killer. Cyberpunk is a narrative driven game, V is reasonably well-defined protagonist, not a blank-slate. That's why I said it's not a sandbox.

Agree to disagree.

They are about the same in my eyes, but I can see how HR might be more of an RPG to you.

It is definitely less of an RPG than Gothic 2 or VTMB, it is a completely different type of RPG than Diablo or Path of Exile. Few pages ago you had people arguing that Diablo and its lookalikes do not deserve the label "RPG"...

you said:
Freedom is great. But the example you gave is freedom to play as pathological thief or a serial killer. Cyberpunk is a narrative driven game, V is reasonably well-defined protagonist, not a blank-slate. That's why I said it's not a sandbox.

Your making my point that Cyberpunk its a action adventure game by pointing the limits it has. Funny.


You said:
It is. Thing is, in HR, in 90% of cases it amounts to whether you'll have to fight the person you're conversing with or be able to convince them. Just like in Cyberpunk. There are few examples in both games where conversations can have one more outcome, but that's it. Both games would lose convincingly to let's say Dragon Age: Origins.

There are multiple outcomes then 2.

There are multiple outcomes and plays with Haas.
Is possible convince Haas to forgive himself or you can make Haas confront his past and leave it behind without an make him angry or blackmail him and make him angry. All three action result in Haas let you inside station and give permission to move around the station freely, without other police being hostile while you move in upper levels floors.

Second you access the police through sewers and get close to the morgue.

Third you access through the upper acces point in station.

The above gives huge variation in playthrough.

1. You can go through sewers without talking with Hass.
2. you can go through sewers after failing to convince Hass.
3. you can directly through upper access without even entering Police front door and failing at talking to Hass. Accessing this part also has more variation:
3.1 you can go through some electrified coridor if you have certain perk.
3.2 you can use o certain perk to lift heavy objects and get over fence.
3.3if you dont any of the above perks use lighter object from far distance and carry them and stack each other to jump over fence.

4. you can go through upper acces after failing with Hass.
You also have 3 variations from point 3.

5. you can convince Hass to give you acces to Police station with the 3 variation mention before.

Next:
When you return to Detroit,

1. Wayne confronts you at his house, telling he was fired for helping you. You can tell Wayne off, which will anger Wayne and he will threaten with gun. You can offer Wayne work at Sarif. He is gratefull and lives.

2. If you "blackmailed" Haas into letting you into the morgue, Haas again pull a gun on you. You can knock out him or kill him.

3. you did not get help from him and he do not comes to confront you.

You have multiple outcomes for Hass.

In one he lives and works at Sarif.
In one he lives but does not have a job.
In one you kill him.
In one he lives but still works at Police.

So my point still remains that Deus Ex embarasses Cyberpunk 2077 in RPG elements, variation of playthrough.

You said:
Agree to disagree.
They are about the same in my eyes, but I can see how HR might be more of an RPG to you.

Deus Ex has more in common with Gothic 2 then Cyberpunk 2077.
Ignoring my other points only prove I am right.

Ignoring the fact CDPR themselves call the game action adventure proves again I am right.

CDPR themselves call the game action adventure and not rpg like they do Witcher 3.

Q: So you not think they know their game?


You said:
It is definitely less of an RPG than Gothic 2 or VTMB, it is a completely different type of RPG
than Diablo or Path of Exile.

Yes they are different but are somewhat in the same class of having as much rpg elements.

You said:
Few pages ago you had people arguing that Diablo and its lookalikes do not deserve the label "RPG"...

Did not said such a thing. Your imagining things.
Quote please.

Post automatically merged: Jan 31, 2021

sorry but i am playing outer worlds and i have played (and finished) most of the others especially the outer world are more action rpg with choice then a pure rpg, the only one that can be a "pure RPG" its pillar of eternity 2

I did not said they are pure RPG.
Just very good RPGs close to being pure RPG.

 

[yota71]

I did not said they are pure RPG.
Just very good RPGs close to being pure RPG.

yeah, they are good, but not in the case of the outer worlds, this game as not a lot to do with RPG

 

[Arcafonk]

V is reasonably well-defined protagonist, not a blank-slate. That's why I said it's not a sandbox.

Sandboxes games tend to blank their character to favorize player immersion BUT it's not a pre-requisite.

This is not :
Blank char => Sandbox

This is:
Some Sandbox => Blank Char

Some sandboxes doesn't blank their char (ex: X3 the Threat). It depends on the weigth of the writing in the game. The more writted a game is, the more its main protagonist is defined. But also the more writted a game is, the more $$$ is spend on themepark feats.

CP77 is not a sandbox anyway, it would be a themepark game (sandbox/themepark is a mid 2000's concept).

CDPR themselves call the game action adventure and not rpg like they do Witcher 3.

That's because player "writes" exploration in TW3, whereas he "reads" it in CP77.

You can't talk about RPG removing agency in exploration (being it gamist immersion, sim immersion or narativist immersion). In all RPG, immersion is agency in exploration. One can oppose comtemplation to agency, but in the end full complemplation "games" are "just" books.

This took 10 years to define immersion in P&P RPG, but ultimatly it was defined (mid-late 2010's, in France's studies at least, for what I know. In P&P, OSR games are the last nail that confirms everything).