Is this much support for Poison as a mechanics needed?

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DRK3

Forum veteran
@rrc Made a deck to prove you swarm is really good vs poison. I used congregate SY, which is really unpopular. I barely have any control (only a thunder and a lock) but still managed against most decks, except engines that get out of control.

Zealots destroying poison.jpg
Elfs bitch please.jpg


I really wanted to make a deck around Collusion - the only card of MoO expansion i have never seen played by someone besides me!

Yes, it requires a bit of setup, more than the scenarios, but it's a 12 provision card that can provide up to 21pts (if you have all 5 gangs on board it gives 3 zealots, 5 damage, 5 buff and 5 coins). Bloody good friends is really good for this since it has 2 gang categories on a cheap bronze. With this leader ability i always have the firesworn category for Collusion. And nobody bothers dealing with Adriano Mink (Blindeyes), only the seductress it spawns.

I used the 4p firesworn that boost for every spawn because i wanted to use portal, but to counter poison, the firesworn that gives 1 coin instead for every spawn is probably better. And i should probably be using 2x Bone talisman + Triss TK, considering how easy it is to swarm.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
I dont think NG Poison is as unbeatable as you're painting it. I agree they probably buffed it a bit too much and probably need to dial it down back again. But i think there are several archetypes that can beat it:

-Its not just elf swarm, any type of swarm can beat it easily, whether its elves, crows, rats or spiders, even NG soldiers or my caravan vanguard NR deck. If you're playing swarm, you dont even need to worry with purifies at all - for every 4 or 5 pt unit they destroy, you'll be making 15-20pts of boosts on the last turns.

-the popular crow deck, that uses second wind on gremist to instantly play the entire scenario, usually ends up with 2 tall units at least_ the one who got the spawned mardroeme and maybe axel 3-eyes as finisher. But you can go wide instead of tall, and replace that axel with a bone talisman (same provisions i think).
Also the crow mother + 2 crows played early and replayed on every round are great pressure (beware of Yens Invocation and seizes though), and NG poison doesnt have any tempo plays without leader ability and scenario.
Of course there are going to be a few decks that can beat NG poison. I also mentioned that in my first post too. But I don't think it is healthy to have this much poison in the game (pun intended). After a long time I saw Pumpkn stream yesterday and he majorly faced NG poison and again with Scenario+Caretaker. IIRC out of 4-5 games I saw he faced one CallOfTheForest and rest all were NG poison. Even with Pincer Manuever he was losing. I mean, every two turns your tallest card getting killed and the opponent keep adding units on their board is just ridiculous.

Initially, there was very few support for poison and people will add all the cards so that they get 2 or 3 cards in a round to kill one unit. Killing two units was rare with poison. It was fine. But now, the entire deck is around poison and lock and only Swarm decks can win. I have given up playing SK - the only way to win is to play the meta deck - Second Wind with Crow Mother and scenario.

Post automatically merged:

@rrc Made a deck to prove you swarm is really good vs poison. I used congregate SY, which is really unpopular. I barely have any control (only a thunder and a lock) but still managed against most decks, except engines that get out of control.

View attachment 11027555View attachment 11027558

I really wanted to make a deck around Collusion - the only card of MoO expansion i have never seen played by someone besides me!

Yes, it requires a bit of setup, more than the scenarios, but it's a 12 provision card that can provide up to 21pts (if you have all 5 gangs on board it gives 3 zealots, 5 damage, 5 buff and 5 coins). Bloody good friends is really good for this since it has 2 gang categories on a cheap bronze. With this leader ability i always have the firesworn category for Collusion. And nobody bothers dealing with Adriano Mink (Blindeyes), only the seductress it spawns.

I used the 4p firesworn that boost for every spawn because i wanted to use portal, but to counter poison, the firesworn that gives 1 coin instead for every spawn is probably better. And i should probably be using 2x Bone talisman + Triss TK, considering how easy it is to swarm.
In fact I also tried to create a Swarm deck DRK3 (even before NG poison became meta). I wanted to try something different. This swam deck has incredible potential in long round, but winning R1 and keeping the key cards was hard. And honestly I also wanted to use Collusion (and crafted that junk card with 800 scraps), but never managed to get value out of it. I tried a few games and was slaugthered. It is just too damn conditional and SY doesn't bode well if you want to mix all gangs of units. In fact I wanted to create a thread about that too. Salamadra, Witch Hunters are not part of any gang and the gang cards are all just meh.

So, until poison is a bit nerfed, I can't try Svalblod (with whom I wanted to reach Pro rank). I am currently trying to create a Sheldon deck with Guarilla Tactics, but it is too outdated and too much draw dependent.
 
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I wouldn't say that poison is fine and I guess we will see some nerfs at the end of the season. But we won't see and don't need a complete rework of that mechanic. At least that's what I think.

There are also some things you can do against it so I wouldn't call it 'binary' like some people do. Sure, when your opponent applys 13 times or more poison you are probably screwed.

So you can ...
- purify (obviously)
- consume poisoned units (if you play MO)
- play defender after a unit got poisoned (so your opponent can't target that unit again)
- kill the cow carcass

OK, that's all I can think of and it's not much I agree. I wanted to point that out to show the difference to artifacts, not to say that the mechanic is absolutely fine.
 
@rrc Made a deck to prove you swarm is really good vs poison. I used congregate SY, which is really unpopular. I barely have any control (only a thunder and a lock) but still managed against most decks, except engines that get out of control.

View attachment 11027555View attachment 11027558

I really wanted to make a deck around Collusion - the only card of MoO expansion i have never seen played by someone besides me!

Yes, it requires a bit of setup, more than the scenarios, but it's a 12 provision card that can provide up to 21pts (if you have all 5 gangs on board it gives 3 zealots, 5 damage, 5 buff and 5 coins). Bloody good friends is really good for this since it has 2 gang categories on a cheap bronze. With this leader ability i always have the firesworn category for Collusion. And nobody bothers dealing with Adriano Mink (Blindeyes), only the seductress it spawns.

I used the 4p firesworn that boost for every spawn because i wanted to use portal, but to counter poison, the firesworn that gives 1 coin instead for every spawn is probably better. And i should probably be using 2x Bone talisman + Triss TK, considering how easy it is to swarm.

i thought i am the only one doing collusion. it is actually a great card. my deck is totally different, i play it with different crime units and other crime cards (intimidate based). it looks like first you are losing a lot and people don't see, that you are building up a deck with different crime factions in the background. and in the end, when people think they have won by far, comes collision. BOOM. sometimes it brings more than 30 points in one round (if you spend then the coins won)

disadvantage is only if rounds are short, then you are likely to lose which such decks.
 

Payus

Forum regular
Of course there are going to be a few decks that can beat NG poison. I also mentioned that in my first post too. But I don't think it is healthy to have this much poison in the game (pun intended). After a long time I saw Pumpkn stream yesterday and he majorly faced NG poison and again with Scenario+Caretaker. IIRC out of 4-5 games I saw he faced one CallOfTheForest and rest all were NG poison. Even with Pincer Manuever he was losing. I mean, every two turns your tallest card getting killed and the opponent keep adding units on their board is just ridiculous.

Initially, there was very few support for poison and people will add all the cards so that they get 2 or 3 cards in a round to kill one unit. Killing two units was rare with poison. It was fine. But now, the entire deck is around poison and lock and only Swarm decks can win. I have given up playing SK - the only way to win is to play the meta deck - Second Wind with Crow Mother and scenario.

Post automatically merged:


In fact I also tried to create a Swarm deck DRK3 (even before NG poison became meta). I wanted to try something different. This swam deck has incredible potential in long round, but winning R1 and keeping the key cards was hard. And honestly I also wanted to use Collusion (and crafted that junk card with 800 scraps), but never managed to get value out of it. I tried a few games and was slaugthered. It is just too damn conditional and SY doesn't bode well if you want to mix all gangs of units. In fact I wanted to create a thread about that too. Salamadra, Witch Hunters are not part of any gang and the gang cards are all just meh.

So, until poison is a bit nerfed, I can't try Svalblod (with whom I wanted to reach Pro rank). I am currently trying to create a Sheldon deck with Guarilla Tactics, but it is too outdated and too much draw dependent.

I've actually have had decent success vs NR siege and NG poison, and even vs SC feign death with an SK list (of course its SK :)

It is a second wind list without Gedyneith.

I run:
Korathi Hw
Mork Hot
Crow mommy
Defender
Sigdrifa's
Jutta
Lugos the mad lad
Ermion
Gremist
Heymay flaminica(the 6p one that heals all the row)
Delirium
2x priest
2x freyas
Runestone
The 5p artifact destroy/deal 3 dmg
1x Maerdroeme
1x Swallow potion
1x veteran
1x protector
1x terrorcrew axe-wielder
1x crushing blow
1x gutting slash

I might be missing some cards but you get the idea, I usually use korathi on the scenarios. The deck is pretty versatile and a mix of control, random dmg and point slam. Also gremist + loads of alchemy cards, defender and the purify stratagem can deal with poisons.
 
[...]

As far as I'm concerned, card games like Gwent should be Chess with cards. The player should be required to build a good deck, but also to have to move (play a card) and then face a counter-move, and so on and so forth. There should be a need to think and plan a strategy.

In some card games the objective is to defeat the leader - similar to obtaining a checkmate. Gwent doesn't have this objective (basically it's to try and get your score higher than the opponent, perhaps by reducing their score). Unfortunately, the way Gwent is currently designed, there's not much in the way of strategy - move, counter-move, etc.

The fact is, a fairly new player could quite easily build a certain type of deck (quick internet search for latest popular winning deck that is a constant boost/charge/swarm, etc., fest) and start winning lots of games. Am I to conclude that such players are good at the game or is it really the poor game design that makes them appear to be good? I suggest it is the latter.

Chess - but with cards... anyone know of a decent card game that cuts the mustard, cuz Gwent just ain't cutting it?


Edited. -Drac
There was a glorious CCG called KingdomsCCG and only God knows how they were able to destroy that game and let it die. In my opinion it was the single best CCG that was ever created.
 
i understand this is different from the topic but its saying i need 10 technical posts which i dont understand because i have no technical issues so why would i make 10 posts. i just want to know if they are going to nerf poison? not gona whine about it in an outraged way but i think all the cheap provision poison deploy units (cant they be order except the high provision ones to give you a chance) are just too much of a game breaker for me, everyone has their own opinions and its a strategy game so everyone will say thats part of the game, but i just find games against nilfgaard impossible at the moment which is funny because i played console and they are useless on there, im not stupid i constanlty change my deck for diversity and would have to change my entire deck to stand a chance to beat this nilfgaard deck to a setup that would then get crushed by every other deck other than nilfgaard poison, does anyone know if they are looking to change this anytime soon? thank you if you dont delete or reply i dont have any technical issues to report, thanks james.
 
@SpudCakes

Post moved to a more appropriate thread. Also, you can make a thread in Technical. After, a moderator can move the thread to the correct forum.
 
The current poison meta from NG reminds me of Eithne Artifact nightmare shortly after HC release, where we needed to bring many artifact removal cards if you want to play a game. How many purify card am I supposed to put in my deck? NG can easily apply poison 8 or more times. This is without considering Scenario+Caretaker degeneracy. I have now played many games in which the opponents play poison unit after poison unit to a level that it is impossible to play against it.

Even without caretaker, NG can play Fangs x 4 (with scenario), King Cobra x 2, Rot Tosser x 2 (which poisons two units), Maraal (who applies poison twice) and the Cook. That is applying poison 13 times (+2 with Rot Tosser) in a game in which we play 16 cards. It is not fun at all to play against these decks as all they do is just poison after poison. Against ST, they had to play the poison cards (Harmony cards) early and hence you can wait to play your important cards. But with NG no matter how late you play your key card, it will be removed. Even after adding a Pellar in addition to Purify engines (the SK Druid who can purify many units), it is impossible to save units as any engines will be locked with a 4P bronze.

I am 100% sure that many people will defend this as "it is an archetype.. don't kill it..". We as a Gwent community have killed many archetypes (some rightfully so) to oblivion (Withcers, Discard, Dwarves, Bounty, Artifacts etc) and I wouldn't be even a bit sad if Poison is killed. The only way to play around is to bring a ton of Purify units which just leaves a bad taste in the mouth when deck building (or) play a Swarm deck. You can't try anything new as long as Poison as an archetype with this immense support is present. Even when tall punish was very common, people would come with a deck which will go tall as you will lose one tall unit to Geralt (or Leo) and others will survive. But with poison you will lose many units to poison (or get locked) which is just impossible to play against.

Now, Gwent team will have statistics which would say that NG poison is fine as they have 50-60% winrate and acceptable playrate. But it could only be because of the existence of Harmony or Pincer (or swarm) decks. Other decks just have no chance against 13 poison (+2 lock) units. So, CDPR, please please fix this. This is not fine even if statistics says so. Remove this much support for poison.

On the top of my head:
1) Increase Maraal's provision
2) Make King Cobra poison a random enemy unit
3) Make all the bronze poison units not to break even.

making them order to poison instead of deploy would give us half a chance, with you 100% buddy peoples solutions are stupid, your supposed to build a balanced deck to face all factions and people throwing out solutions with deck builds that quite frankly would probably still lose to NG poison but also be completely useless against other factions.
 
[...]

As far as I'm concerned, card games like Gwent should be Chess with cards. The player should be required to build a good deck, but also to have to move (play a card) and then face a counter-move, and so on and so forth. There should be a need to think and plan a strategy.

In some card games the objective is to defeat the leader - similar to obtaining a checkmate. Gwent doesn't have this objective (basically it's to try and get your score higher than the opponent, perhaps by reducing their score). Unfortunately, the way Gwent is currently designed, there's not much in the way of strategy - move, counter-move, etc.

The fact is, a fairly new player could quite easily build a certain type of deck (quick internet search for latest popular winning deck that is a constant boost/charge/swarm, etc., fest) and start winning lots of games. Am I to conclude that such players are good at the game or is it really the poor game design that makes them appear to be good? I suggest it is the latter.

Chess - but with cards... anyone know of a decent card game that cuts the mustard, cuz Gwent just ain't cutting it?


Edited. -Drac
Legends of runeterra does this for me.
 
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