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Is Wardancer A Problem?

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Pruny

Junior Member
#61
bloody nekers should be reverted to 3, or madroeme boosted to 4. i sometime win with swordmasters because i kill them all in first round, but its very hard.
:hai:
 

Barracuda88

Junior Member
#62
1990BW;n10829651 said:
It's remarkable there's so much discussion about a 3 strength bronze.
People who defend it, argue about it and throwing other broken mechanics into the discussion.
The fact remains Wardancers will be changed in the balance patch.
So instead of wasting time to a senseless discussion come up with suggestions so this card remains playable.
If you think another mechanic is broken start a topic about it and do the same there.
Well, the original question was whether or not Wardancer was "a problem," more specifically a problem worth being singled out by the Big Chief of Gwent Himself in his Homecoming letter, so the discussion that followed, and the references to "other" cards were an attempt to answer that.

The fact that the Wardancer is going to be nerfed has been acknowledged.

As for not wasting time, I would argue trying to come up with suggestions for the dancer to remain playable at this point is going to be equally wasteful. Most likely, the dev have already decided what they're doing with it.
 

1990BW

Junior Member
#63
Barracuda88;n10830051 said:
Well, the original question was whether or not Wardancer was "a problem," more specifically a problem worth being singled out by the Big Chief of Gwent Himself in his Homecoming letter, so the discussion that followed, and the references to "other" cards were an attempt to answer that.

The fact that the Wardancer is going to be nerfed has been acknowledged.

As for not wasting time, I would argue trying to come up with suggestions for the dancer to remain playable at this point is going to be equally wasteful. Most likely, the dev have already decided what they're doing with it.
Maybe or maybe not perhaps if someone has a good idea the devs might be persuaded to that.
The devs already know about a lot of things described in this 5 paged thread.
If people want to repeat things over and over again I'm fine with that but It's not a sensible thing to do at this point.
Just my 2 cents, no hard feelings
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#64
Barracuda88;n10829541 said:
What you do is play your Spy, then, IF they play the spy back, you make a decision to either play the long round 2 to bleed them out or the long round 3 where you'll have the second go. And if they don't play the spy, you have complete control and the last say, because they gave you that round 1. In other words, yes you have to adjust to not being able to dry-pass. You need to be ready to out-tempo, which your deck, by the way, though it starts slow, can get up to speed in terms of tempo pretty quickly, what with the immune 14-point bronzes and 2-4 point per turn gain. You have a 4-point card that plays a 2-point boon, which is pretty high tempo as far as boons go. And there will be times your drypass will work fine (if they don't get rid of it) and you'll see this wardancer played from hand in round 3. And maybe you'll still lose.

I can see how the card can irk some people, but to say it's auto-win against any deck is absurd.

I've played level 20 decks which when I see a nekker played turn 1 and I don't have or didn't draw Compression or Muzzle or Mandrake I KNOW i'm done. Then and there, there's nothing I can do. But hey, I can "interact" with it, so it's cool.
Did you actually play the deck(s)? Because you are once again indicating you do not understand how they work.

1) Play spy - absolutely, that's why all these decks play spies (and decks with Wardancers also have them). But! If the opponent did not have Wardancer, you can absolutely pass round 2 anyway and go into round 3 with spy in hand since you like long rounds. Heck, Axemen can and should drypass round 2 even if opponent has a Wardancer.
2) You have last say - no you don't. You're in round 2 down a card. If you lose round 2 still down a card, you do not have last say.
3) You have complete control - so what? You're playing a deck with no round 3 plan. Far from bleeding the opponent, if you play round 2, you are the one getting bled.
4) You need to be ready to out-tempo - and then? What are you going to do in round 3? You've already used all your high tempo plays. Don't forget that by using all these in round 2 you have less turns for your engines to generate points in round 3.
5) You have a 4-point card that plays a 2-point boon which is "pretty high tempo as far as boons go" - if 6 points in a card is not low tempo, what is? Siren takes four (!) turns to become reasonably high tempo for a bronze card.
6) Auto-win - nobody says it's an automatic victory. If you start the game with one less card than your opponent, you do not auto-lose. But the advantage gained is tremendous.

Seriously please PLAY THE DECKS before posting. Don't mention Nekkers either. That's a deck that doesn't stop you from executing your gameplan. What you really "know" in that situation is that you won't have an easy win. But if not having an easy win becomes a loss, that's on you and your deck. You wrote something similar here: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/for...ff-still-needs-a-nerf?p=10731361#post10731361.
 

Hellsmoke77

Junior Member
#65
Jeydra;n10831031 said:
Did you actually play the deck(s)? Because you are once again indicating you do not understand how they work.

1) Play spy - absolutely, that's why all these decks play spies (and decks with Wardancers also have them). But! If the opponent did not have Wardancer, you can absolutely pass round 2 anyway and go into round 3 with spy in hand since you like long rounds. Heck, Axemen can and should drypass round 2 even if opponent has a Wardancer.
2) You have last say - no you don't. You're in round 2 down a card. If you lose round 2 still down a card, you do not have last say.
3) You have complete control - so what? You're playing a deck with no round 3 plan. Far from bleeding the opponent, if you play round 2, you are the one getting bled.
4) You need to be ready to out-tempo - and then? What are you going to do in round 3? You've already used all your high tempo plays. Don't forget that by using all these in round 2 you have less turns for your engines to generate points in round 3.
5) You have a 4-point card that plays a 2-point boon which is "pretty high tempo as far as boons go" - if 6 points in a card is not low tempo, what is? Siren takes four (!) turns to become reasonably high tempo for a bronze card.
6) Auto-win - nobody says it's an automatic victory. If you start the game with one less card than your opponent, you do not auto-lose. But the advantage gained is tremendous.

Seriously please PLAY THE DECKS before posting. Don't mention Nekkers either. That's a deck that doesn't stop you from executing your gameplan. What you really "know" in that situation is that you won't have an easy win. But if not having an easy win becomes a loss, that's on you and your deck. You wrote something similar here: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/for...ff-still-needs-a-nerf?p=10731361#post10731361.
Just because you like a "long round" that doesn't mean you are entitled to it every game. Some decks can and should be able to deny you said round if they play well. I play my spy round 2 against ST because I know wardancer will be dropped. To beat that deck you want to win round 1, spy and bleed round 2 and have a finisher for round 3. Against another deck you might need another strategy.

CDPR will highly likely render the card useless and people will come up with the next cheap strategy for others to cry about because it interupts their comfy deck. This is part of why I stopped playing, there aren't many cards and every card that is nerfed is over-nefed leaving everyone to play the same few cards in order to compete.

When wardancer is nerfed Olgierd should also be nerfed as not every faction has graveyard hate. That would be the fair thing to do but they wont and SK players were successful in killing wardancer to then use Olgierd for the same result.
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#66
Hellsmoke77;n10831501 said:
Just because you like a "long round" that doesn't mean you are entitled to it every game. Some decks can and should be able to deny you said round if they play well. I play my spy round 2 against ST because I know wardancer will be dropped. To beat that deck you want to win round 1, spy and bleed round 2 and have a finisher for round 3. Against another deck you might need another strategy.

CDPR will highly likely render the card useless and people will come up with the next cheap strategy for others to cry about because it interupts their comfy deck. This is part of why I stopped playing, there aren't many cards and every card that is nerfed is over-nefed leaving everyone to play the same few cards in order to compete.

When wardancer is nerfed Olgierd should also be nerfed as not every faction has graveyard hate. That would be the fair thing to do but they wont and SK players were successful in killing wardancer to then use Olgierd for the same result.
"Some decks can and should be able to deny you said round if they play well." Oh really. Name one such deck that doesn't include a Wardancer. You'll probably think of carryover (since you mentioned Olgierd). Nope. I drypass round 1 no matter what you do + regardless of whether or not I win the coin flip, and now either round 2 or round 3 will be long.

The problem is you don't understand the game very well but think you do, which is what gives you the mistaken impression that this is about "comfy decks".
 
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Barracuda88

Junior Member
#67
Jeydra;n10831031 said:
Did you actually play the deck(s)? Because you are once again indicating you do not understand how they work.

1) Play spy - absolutely, that's why all these decks play spies (and decks with Wardancers also have them). But! If the opponent did not have Wardancer, you can absolutely pass round 2 anyway and go into round 3 with spy in hand since you like long rounds. Heck, Axemen can and should drypass round 2 even if opponent has a Wardancer.
2) You have last say - no you don't. You're in round 2 down a card. If you lose round 2 still down a card, you do not have last say.
3) You have complete control - so what? You're playing a deck with no round 3 plan. Far from bleeding the opponent, if you play round 2, you are the one getting bled.
4) You need to be ready to out-tempo - and then? What are you going to do in round 3? You've already used all your high tempo plays. Don't forget that by using all these in round 2 you have less turns for your engines to generate points in round 3.
5) You have a 4-point card that plays a 2-point boon which is "pretty high tempo as far as boons go" - if 6 points in a card is not low tempo, what is? Siren takes four (!) turns to become reasonably high tempo for a bronze card.
6) Auto-win - nobody says it's an automatic victory. If you start the game with one less card than your opponent, you do not auto-lose. But the advantage gained is tremendous.

Seriously please PLAY THE DECKS before posting. Don't mention Nekkers either. That's a deck that doesn't stop you from executing your gameplan. What you really "know" in that situation is that you won't have an easy win. But if not having an easy win becomes a loss, that's on you and your deck. You wrote something similar here: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/for...ff-still-needs-a-nerf?p=10731361#post10731361.
1. Yes, if the opponent did not have the Wardancer, you can absolutely pass and go into 3 with a spy... Let's just state obvious things and make them sound like they prove some point. I'll just repeat it again, too, I guess. The Wardancer is there to deny you dry pass. This means, if Wardancer was not dropped - you can drypass! Checkmate.
2. Yes, you have the last say. The sentence you're responding to started with "And if they don't play the spy." This means IF THEY DON"T PLAY A SPY you're going into 3rd round on even cards and they will be going first. THIS means you have the last say.
3. This was in the same sentence, again if they don't play the spy back.
4. What are you asking for, exactly? Pointers on how to play Moonlight against Elf-swarm? I can't really help you. TECH, maybe? Like everyone else who has to tech against Meta decks by using cards that don't have much synergy with the rest of the deck. Or not. Stick to the plan and pray for your opponent to have a bricked hand in a bad matchup. Maybe he'll draw that dancer in round 3.
5. Yes, a 4-point card is a pretty high tempo for a boon. A merc, for example, that plays the Ale boon is a 1-point card, which is nearly impossible to use in a match.
6. Oh yeah, I've seen people write that. There was one in this very thread, in fact. And you don't start the game with one card less.
7. "Don't mention the nekkers..." Is that an order? Sure, that deck doesn't stop me from executing my gameplan, because nothing I do matters in the slightest if I'm not tech'd against it. Yes, I KNOW I'll lose because I know what deck I have and what deck he has. Yes, I also played decks that destroy nekkers 3 moves in. The point I was making was Wardancer is never that card you see and think "Oh, damn I'm f*d now," and if you do think that, then "THAT"S ON YOU AND YOUR DECK."What I wrote in the other thread about handbuff has nothing to do with this AT ALL.
8. Your way of telling people what to do and that they don't understand the game is really annoying and rude.
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#69
Barracuda88;n10831891 said:
1. Yes, if the opponent did not have the Wardancer, you can absolutely pass and go into 3 with a spy... Let's just state obvious things and make them sound like they prove some point. I'll just repeat it again, too, I guess. The Wardancer is there to deny you dry pass. This means, if Wardancer was not dropped - you can drypass! Checkmate.
2. Yes, you have the last say. The sentence you're responding to started with "And if they don't play the spy." This means IF THEY DON"T PLAY A SPY you're going into 3rd round on even cards and they will be going first. THIS means you have the last say.
3. This was in the same sentence, again if they don't play the spy back.
4. What are you asking for, exactly? Pointers on how to play Moonlight against Elf-swarm? I can't really help you. TECH, maybe? Like everyone else who has to tech against Meta decks by using cards that don't have much synergy with the rest of the deck. Or not. Stick to the plan and pray for your opponent to have a bricked hand in a bad matchup. Maybe he'll draw that dancer in round 3.
5. Yes, a 4-point card is a pretty high tempo for a boon. A merc, for example, that plays the Ale boon is a 1-point card, which is nearly impossible to use in a match.
6. Oh yeah, I've seen people write that. There was one in this very thread, in fact. And you don't start the game with one card less.
7. "Don't mention the nekkers..." Is that an order? Sure, that deck doesn't stop me from executing my gameplan, because nothing I do matters in the slightest if I'm not tech'd against it. Yes, I KNOW I'll lose because I know what deck I have and what deck he has. Yes, I also played decks that destroy nekkers 3 moves in. The point I was making was Wardancer is never that card you see and think "Oh, damn I'm f*d now," and if you do think that, then "THAT"S ON YOU AND YOUR DECK."What I wrote in the other thread about handbuff has nothing to do with this AT ALL.
8. Your way of telling people what to do and that they don't understand the game is really annoying and rude.
I give up, you're on your own.
 

grandma_moses13

Junior Member
#70
New guy here, playing around 4100 at the moment.

My take on the issue is super simplistic: Wardancer is carryover that you cannot address during the round before, unlike every other carryover card. Couple that with the very nature of the three round setup in Gwent and you will have headshaking interactions even with a 1 strength Wardancer. I feel that carryover in itself should be the reward for sacrificing on tempo when playing cards like Barbegazi or Mahakam Guard, not that you should gain carryover without giving up any tempo during the round before.

As I said, it's a very simplistic look on things, but my sense of balancing in card games and I would be baffled if the, let's call it 'free carryover" aspect of Wardancer would not be adressed shortly. I could see something along the lines of 'For every 3 elves on board, play a Wardancer from your deck' with the Wardancer being a 3 strength resilient card coming if they wanted for the card to keep its flavor and niché.
 
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Hellsmoke77

Junior Member
#71
Jeydra;n10831571 said:
"Some decks can and should be able to deny you said round if they play well." Oh really. Name one such deck that doesn't include a Wardancer. You'll probably think of carryover (since you mentioned Olgierd). Nope. I drypass round 1 no matter what you do + regardless of whether or not I win the coin flip, and now either round 2 or round 3 will be long.

The problem is you don't understand the game very well but think you do, which is what gives you the mistaken impression that this is about "comfy decks". Of course, you can never be convinced, so I'm not going to bother beyond this post.
You dry pass and it will always be a long round 2 which doesn't matter to me since you gave me round 1 and with it control of the game. If you understand the game so well then you should know that players who have been playing since CB such as myself will know how to take advantage of that.
 

rrc

Junior Member
#72
IMHO, Wardancer is a high risk and high reward card. I have lost quite a few games because I drew Wardancer as the last draw. (I am still a noob and I am around 3100+ points, so there may be things which I don't understand). Sometimes I even consider removing Wardancer from my deck (whenever I lose a game because I got this card). What is shocking to me is, of all the cards that need balancing and seriously broken, the team decided to tell Wardancer as an example!
 

Mickoman91

Junior Member
#73
Or maybe make Wardancer similar to Ronvid, just with 4 strength since 3 might me a bit weak then (similar to foglet).
 

Hellsmoke77

Junior Member
#74
rrc;n10837511 said:
What is shocking to me is, of all the cards that need balancing and seriously broken, the team decided to tell Wardancer as an example!
Exactly. The point is most complain about it because card advantage can be a win condition. Our argument is that while it can be a win condition, it isn't reliable and can indeed be played around by playing into the round in which wardancer is played. They think they are entitled to a dry pass basically and are annoyed that this card stops it.

I too am surprised CDPR seems to agree with them..


 
#75
One of Wardancers specificities is that they can prevent dry passing in R1 and R2. So, I understand why it is a problem for decks who need long R3, like Bloodmoon.

Worst case scenario is :
1) ST player has a red coin and drops a wardancer at the beginning of round 1 ;
2) His opponent wins round 1 after a long round ;
3) ST player drops a wardancer at the beginning of round 2 ;
4) His opponent doesn't have his silver spy, or both players have their spy.

--> ST player will likely have a card advantage.

But if all these conditions are not reunited, then wardancers are not that problematic.

1) ST player has blue coin : his opponent is safe.
2) ST player doesn't draw wardancer in round 1 : his opponent can dry pass.
3) ST player doesn't draw wardancer in round 2 : same as above.
4) ST player doesn't have his silver spy and his opponent does : the latter is safe.

And as many have already stated, wardancers can brick.

Actually, I don't think wardancers are broken. But I admit that they may be really frustrating for the opponent, because he doesn't have any control over them. And I guess that Imlerith is hated for the same reason : if he is not countered quickly, his opponent totally loses control.

Players hate frustrating cards even more than broken ones.

This is why I accept the announced death of wardancers. They are not vital to my ST deck, anyway. I don't even think that I have won more than 10 percent of my games thanks to them (even if it is still appreciated).

Nerf Brouver, nerf wardancers, and then, let ST breathe :p.

But I also hope that something will be done about the 14 points carryover of Bran, because if it's not frustrating, then I don't know what it is.
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#76
Hellsmoke77;n10837311 said:
You dry pass and it will always be a long round 2 which doesn't matter to me since you gave me round 1 and with it control of the game. If you understand the game so well then you should know that players who have been playing since CB such as myself will know how to take advantage of that.
Trynet drypassed five times on the blue coin in the Wild Hunt LAN finals and won 3-2.

Which of the following is true:

1) His opponent actually doesn't know how to play the game, and you could teach him how to take advantage of opponent drypassing round 1.
2) You actually don't understand the game as well as you think you do.

I'm betting on #2. FYI, I drypass on the blue coin all the time, and I still reached the top 100. Have you ever been that high?
 

Hellsmoke77

Junior Member
#78
Jeydra;n10840291 said:
Have you ever been that high?
Drugs are bad man. Your example is dependent on two things, player skill and match up. Giving a player control over the game can cost you the game, every good player knows this. If you dry pass and you get shut down in round 2 then it's GG. I'm sure you don't have a 100% win rate so you must be familiar with that situation.

If dry passing was that much of an advantage for some decks that would be another argument for cards like wardancer being in the game, not against it. Dry passing and losing a round should not be an advantage. You lost that round and shouldn't be rewarded for it.
 

Hellsmoke77

Junior Member
#79
Roi_Barbichette;n10838431 said:
One of Wardancers specificities is that they can prevent dry passing in R1 and R2. So, I understand why it is a problem for decks who need long R3, like Bloodmoon.

Worst case scenario is :
1) ST player has a red coin and drops a wardancer at the beginning of round 1 ;
2) His opponent wins round 1 after a long round ;
3) ST player drops a wardancer at the beginning of round 2 ;
4) His opponent doesn't have his silver spy, or both players have their spy.

--> ST player will likely have a card advantage.

But if all these conditions are not reunited, then wardancers are not that problematic.

1) ST player has blue coin : his opponent is safe.
2) ST player doesn't draw wardancer in round 1 : his opponent can dry pass.
3) ST player doesn't draw wardancer in round 2 : same as above.
4) ST player doesn't have his silver spy and his opponent does : the latter is safe.

And as many have already stated, wardancers can brick.

Actually, I don't think wardancers are broken. But I admit that they may be really frustrating for the opponent, because he doesn't have any control over them. And I guess that Imlerith is hated for the same reason : if he is not countered quickly, his opponent totally loses control.

Players hate frustrating cards even more than broken ones.

This is why I accept the announced death of wardancers. They are not vital to my ST deck, anyway. I don't even think that I have won more than 10 percent of my games thanks to them (even if it is still appreciated).

Nerf Brouver, nerf wardancers, and then, let ST breathe :p.

But I also hope that something will be done about the 14 points carryover of Bran, because if it's not frustrating, then I don't know what it is.
More like..

Nerf Brouver, nerf Wardancers and let SK, NR and NG dominate the meta. ST will drop off the list, mark my words. The rest of your post I agree with.
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#80
Hellsmoke77;n10841261 said:
Drugs are bad man. Your example is dependent on two things, player skill and match up. Giving a player control over the game can cost you the game, every good player knows this. If you dry pass and you get shut down in round 2 then it's GG. I'm sure you don't have a 100% win rate so you must be familiar with that situation.

If dry passing was that much of an advantage for some decks that would be another argument for cards like wardancer being in the game, not against it. Dry passing and losing a round should not be an advantage. You lost that round and shouldn't be rewarded for it.
Of course drypassing round 1 depends on the matchup. But if you pick a deck that cannot drypass round 1, you better have the early tempo to back it up. When you have a deck that cannot put out early tempo, you drypass round 1 on the blue coin except possibly against another deck that cannot put out early tempo (e.g. consume). Every good player knows this.

If you dry pass round 1 and get shut down round 2 then it's gg. Duh. But if you play round 1 it's also gg (yes, it's gg before rounds 2 and 3 even start). So you dry pass round 1 and challenge them to get the round 2 shut out, and sometimes they won't be able to do it. Every good player knows this.

Drypassing round 1 is not an advantage, it's a way to minimize a disadvantage. Every good player knows this. Why do you think nobody wants the blue coin? Why do you think these same decks do not drypass on the red coin? Think about it. Drypassing on the red coin is equivalent to drypassing on the blue coin (except against Wardancer mulligan). So why don't they drypass on the red coin if drypassing round 1 is such an advantage?

Your understanding of Gwent fundamentals leaves a lot to be desired. Drugs are bad, man.