Jeydra;n10816521 said:Brouver was always one of the most popular decks this patch, and had one of the highest win rates. Popularity should have nothing to do with win rates. But that's not the point. We're discussing Wardancer, not Brouver.
There're two problems with Wardancer. The first is that if it's mulliganed in round one + on the blue coin you can't drypass. This has severe consequences on CA. Beating any deck on the blue coin with a mulliganed Wardancer - or god forbid multiple mulliganed Wardancers - is very difficult.
The other problem with Wardancer is that you don't know if the opponent has it. If they have it then they have carryover, making losing round 1 more attractive; however if they don't, winning round 1 is preferable. Some decks might not care (especially those that were going to bleed round 2 anyway) but others will find this very problematic
I think if Wardancer did something like "when this unit is mulliganed, at the end of your next turn, play it on a random row" then there'd be no problem.
Barracuda88;n10820571 said:Wardancer is fine, has been fine for a year. High risk/reward card. Could thin your deck and prevent opponent from dry-passing (literally, that's ALL it does), but could also essentially lose you CA when it's a dead 3-point card. The problem is clearly in the coinflip abuse T1-26 decks ONLY. Give Cleaver back his lock and the problem goes away. But no, wardancer is getting "fixed," of course, a.k.a. no one is ever going to play it again.
ser2440;n10820211 said:I would say the fact that you cannot drypass ties very much into Brouver's absurd initial tempo. Wardancer has been like that for ages, well before Midwinter, and it was not problematic because ST did not have a way to generate that amount of points that fast. Now, with Cleaver working as he does now, you've got only one card to play before your opponent tutors or plays the spy, and if that single card on an empty board is not worth at least 17 points, you are screwed royally. Even if they don't have access to Barclay Els, you can't know that, and you can't risk passing and letting them take the round on equal cards. And even if they don't use that whole combo, there will only be a very small window for you to take the pass as when they reach 5 elves, Aelirenn hits the board, making Vrihedd Officers into Vanguards worth at least 17 points.
Brouver will essentially have a massive advantage on the red coin. On the blue coin though, he is very much beatable as long as you can play your own spy.
Think about how many decks can reliably put 17 points with a single card on an empty board. Henselt can't, unless you can tutor Ronvid with Natalis, which is literally the only play that can do this proactively at that early stage in the game. Seltkirk needs a target, so does Vernon Roche, Leo Bonhart, Rainfarn into De Wett that early is BAD, Vilgefortz needs a target, Villentretenmerth needs 3 turns. And Ciri: Nova, you are at your opponent's Schirru's mercy. Even leaders, Henselt needs a target, Harald does too, Calveit into Slave driver needs to pull you a unit worth 11 points.
So, in my opinion,, Wardancer was not a problem, it became a problem after midwinter, when CA started to matter more than anything, and it became far worse when Cleaver was changed.
WildFeo;n10820721 said:So, assuring a CA advantage is literally all it does? Isn't it a bit too much for a bronze?
Barracuda88;n10822151 said:See, it doesn't do CA, though. It prevents you from dry passing the round TO GAIN CA by doing nothing.
1990BW;n10823671 said:Isn't it weird te be ahead/behind when the match/round starts without playing a card?
It's like starting a football match with 1-0.
partci;n10822671 said:I don't know how many times and in what language this issue should be explained to people like you, so I won't even bother anymore. Have fun in your fantasy land - meanwhile I can't wait for the card to be gone in couple of weeks and will stay in hope that the game will not die because of issues like this one.
Barracuda88;n10824301 said:And at the cost of possibly getting to play that 3-point card from hand in round three.
There's plenty of OP stuff in the game, and honestly, wardancers are way down the list of issues.
How about NG shooting from hand or damaging my cards before they hit the deck? Is that not a bit weird? What's that like, in terms of sports scores?
How about SK discarding carryover and bronzes resurrecting 20+ point bronzes?
1990BW;n10824601 said:No there are enough cards with synergy like Vrihedd Officer, Saskia and Francesca.
Almost all (good) players use the bronzes in their SC deck.
It has nothing to do with overpowered, It's unfair competition.
The fire scorpions are fair when compared to removal because they at least require setup.
With removal it's just boom and gone while firescorpions require a reveal unit-> conceal unit -> reveal unit etc.
And you can counter them just by not giving them a good target because at some point they have to play them anyway.
Venendal elites in general are bad units because you'll have to sacrifice reveals on your enemy's hand at the cost of losing synergy with your own hand.
SK discarding is far from competitive at the moment but apart from that aren't they comperable to all other hyperthinning decks?
Greatswords are good but if you allowed them to strengthen to 20+ you did something wrong earlier in the match or your deck can't handle them.
I've played them a few games and the ironic thing in this removal/point bash meta is that It's the only deck where locks matter.
Against all other decks removal will do the trick so the problem is more situated in the value of locks than greatswords.
Barracuda88;n10824301 said:More like starting a basketball game with 3-0? Sure, it's a quirky faction advantage, but game-breaking? And at the cost of possibly getting to play that 3-point card from hand in round three.
How about NG shooting from hand or damaging my cards before they hit the deck? Is that not a bit weird? What's that like, in terms of sports scores?
How about SK discarding carryover and bronzes resurrecting 20+ point bronzes?
There's plenty of OP stuff in the game, and honestly, wardancers are way down the list of issues.
And that is because...?Barracuda88;n10824351 said:Dry-passing should NOT be a valid tactic to either start the game, or gain card advantage in round two.
If you ask me, actually it's a pretty good idea. Not a very new one, but a good idea nonetheless.x1Cygnus;n10824571 said:Anyway, now that the boss of CDPR has mentioned this single card by name in their plans to 'fix' it - what about all those other problematic carry over cards that prevent your precious R2 dry pass? Shouldn't they need nerfing as well? Cards like Morkvarg / Olgierd / Cerys and so on? Are we going to start a campaign to get them nerfed/removed too? Or are they OK?
time_drainer;n10825091 said:And that is because...?
Here's what I think things would look like in a fair, non-coinflipped world (because some people suggest that Wardancer is only problematic because of coinflip):
One player takes the first round by going 1 card down. I know currently it's possible for second player to win the round on even without much effort, but remember we're in a fair world now, so both player can only snatch the 1st round victory by going 1 card down.
From here 1st round winner has two choices:You want dry-pass first round? Good for you, giving up the control of the match without a fight!
- Dry-passing hence winning back card disadvantage. This way we go into final round on equal cards, with 1st winner having the advantage of going second. That is his reward for winning 1st round.
- Playing into 2nd round and by that taking the very likely risk of keeping that card disadvantage for the final. In exchange he gets to control round length and the possibility of bleeding his opponent out of his key cards.
All in all, it all sounds fair to me. Except for that fricking bronze card single-handedly messing up the whole balance, putting decks that favor long rounds in a huge disadvantage and making losing 1st round actually an appealing option, which I think is the opposite of how it supposed to be.
If you ask me, actually it's a pretty good idea. Not a very new one, but a good idea nonetheless.
Barracuda88;n10824841 said:Wow, we're gonna break this down? Partially, even? OK...
The three cards you listed are all part of the same archetype. The only way you're correct when saying that "almost all (good) players" use them is if we assume almost everyone plays Mulligan swarm deck, which (by the way) includes the T1-26 gimmick already mentioned.
OK, so it's not overpowered? Just unfair? And overpowered is fair? Is the dancer the only "unfair" card in Gwent, while the rest of the problem cards are merely OP?
This is just funny. So a merc pulling AT is just boom and gone, but an Alchemist revealing 2 scorpions, which then shoot for 10 from hand (a 19-point play) is "requiring set up"?
And I can "counter them by not giving them a good target because...they have to play them anyway"? What does that even mean? How am I not going to give them a good target? Not play any cards with value over 3? And having to play them is somehow bad?
And venendal elites are just bad cos what now? Cos you have to swing like 18 points by hitting my hand instead of cheesing a 1-point spy? Wow, how dare I prevent your drypass with my uncounterable 3-point bronze? My bad. Obviously you're wrestling with some terrible stuff already.
I was talking specifically about discarding carryover, which you also can't counter. Whether or not they are competitive at the moment is debatable and more importantly beside the point.
Bronze rezzes, on the other hand, were not specifically Greatswords, though they might be the only ones going over 20. But beastmasters are 12-point stock and more when "veteraned" up to 19 after a Restore. Berserkers are routinely 18-19, hunters are like 14-15, etc. etc. And you can just spam that pretty much infinitely (in match terms, anyway). Though, again, I didn't mean to go into detail of SK OP or have it broken down play-by-play. It was more to illustrate how insignificant wardancer seems in comparison to some of these other things in the game.