Isnt it time for Waters of Brokilon to change?

[DRK3]

Waters of Brokilon, 11 provisions, spawn 2 (4pt) Dryad Fledglings.

I will say this - this is the most Overpowered card in the game right now, the one doing the most damage to what could be considered a state of balance.

Lets look at the facts: since it was added in Crimson Curse expansion, it created the Harmony deck.
The Harmony deck has remained at the top of the meta (lets say top half of the factions) for around 9 months now. It's the only one that can boast this - other dominant decks have come and gone, "nerfed to oblivion" as we say, but Harmony always dodges those nerfs (i blame Burza and his love for the Squirrels...
Btw, Gwent HC is now 16 months old - that means for more than half of its existence, Harmony has been a top deck.

We have seen nerfs to Mystic Echo, in a vain attempt from CDPR to tone down this madness. What happened? Shifted to Call of Harmony (and Mystic Echo still strong as hell). And with the February patch, both those leader abilities got nerfed and what happened? Now Precision Strike is more popular, just as the Elves ability (cant remember the name). And guess what? They ALL use that goddamn Waters of Brokilon, its the safety net that keeps SC on top no matter the nerfs other cards get.

Sorry for the rant, its been quite some time since i did one of these, but i think it was necessary. And im probably even forgetting lots of things about how bad this card is to the game.
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(EDIT) ooops, actually forgot to mention a suggestion. Well, the card was nerfed a while ago to only spawn 2 fledglings if there's a dryad on board, but it was reverted to this state where it always spawns 2. The first step would be to go back (not that it would change much, considering its usually played with Fauve)
Then a serious provision nerf (increase to 13, maybe 14 considering what it does on Mystic Echo decks)

(EDIT) i tried playing Invigorate and Guerrila Tactics without WoBrokilon, when i faced other SC decks it was like going into a knife fight and a gun fight at the same time, barehanded...

 

[Evangium]

Personally I think WoB should be reworked as a scenario and with that scenarios limited to one per deck. WoB, as it stands has comparible power to the existing scenarios, in terms of the type of unit it spwans. Adding a third ability along with splitting its spawn rate over 3+ turns probably wouldn't break harmony decks entirely. It would also improve the current space Fauve occupies so she could be more than just WoB's tutor card. I'm pretty sure we will see new scenarios being added within the next few updates, so it just seems to make more sense to rework WoB to a dryad/harmony scenario.

 

[RaynStargaze]

I really like the scenario suggestion. Would make replaying it a lot more expensive and fix the crazy 4 dryad rounds.

Id like to throw in the idea of making the requirement to proc it casting a spell.
Dryads are already pretty strong on average and the tutor a unit leader is - at least on paper when you dont consider the fact that Waters is a spell - a lot stronger than resurrecting a spell from your graveyard.

 

[StrykerS77]

I would really like to know how in the world they felt the need to change Novigradian Justice and not touch Waters of Brokilon. That makes absolutely no sense.

Have any of you seen Dwarves being played competitively? I am asking seriously because I have not been playing Gwent lately but what's funny is that I already know the answer to this. Before this last patch I was grinding to pro rank and I never saw dwarves being used. I was using them even though they weren't at all the best deck but I never saw anyone else using them. After they changed Novigradian Justice there is just no way Dwarves can be competitive. Somehow the devs buffed dwarves to being OP and then nerfed them into nothing in the span of like 4 months? WTF? BUT somehow Waters of Brokilon is fine even though Harmony has been dominating for how long now??

 

[mazeebra]

It's so fun that when I lock those units (Auckes) or kill them, the other player almost automatically leaves the game.

I don't personally think this card is overpowered, or the Dryad Fledglings either. For the provision, I think it's just right actually. I think the perceived "problem" is that the card can play two units at once, which is a powerful thing, especially if those units are any good, which fledgling can be.

I think the easiest comparison to draw is Portal, also a powerful card, but not a game winner under normal circumstances, but definitively a powerful move that need some kind of answer.

I don't even have anything against that leader anymore, after they changed it to only play ST cards and too many Harmony cards. Some should have harmony removed, but not Dryad Fledglings.

I think the problem with ST are other cards, not WoB.

 

[StrykerS77]

It's so fun that when I lock those units (Auckes) or kill them, the other player almost automatically leaves the game.

I don't personally think this card is overpowered, or the Dryad Fledglings either. For the provision, I think it's just right actually. I think the perceived "problem" is that the card can play two units at once, which is a powerful thing, especially if those units are any good, which fledgling can be.

I think the easiest comparison to draw is Portal, also a powerful card, but not a game winner under normal circumstances, but definitively a powerful move that need some kind of answer.

I don't even have anything against that leader anymore, after they changed it to only play ST cards and too many Harmony cards. Some should have harmony removed, but not Dryad Fledglings.

I think the problem with ST are other cards, not WoB.

When talking about WoB being a problem people are mainly referring to it being replayed with Francesca which of course puts 4 engines on the board in one turn. Honestly if the devs change Francesca or denied the interaction with Waters the card might not be a problem. But as you saw with Novigradian Justice the devs have an issue with 4 engines in one turn because it's so strong.

 

[Pacifixer]

WoB is really strong, but i don't think the card itself is the cause of the problem. IMO the real problem here is the Harmony mechanic (and also Thrive and Assimilate). It is too easy to get crazy amount of extra points with every card you play (Greatswords are also guilty of this).
I think bronze cards should have some sort of "restriction ability" that would prevent them from generating too many points.
Example: Dryad Fledgeling - 4p, 4prov, Harmony, Limit: When this card reaches 7 strength, add cooldown 2 to its Harmony ability .

 

[mazeebra]

When talking about WoB being a problem people are mainly referring to it being replayed with Francesca which of course puts 4 engines on the board in one turn. Honestly if the devs change Francesca or denied the interaction with Waters the card might not be a problem. But as you saw with Novigradian Justice the devs have an issue with 4 engines in one turn because it's so strong.

Well, this has been in play since forever. I hardly think it has gone unnoticed, but. I don't think it is an issue personally. It depends on how hard you push the other rounds, most likely you will not end up in a last round with 4 Fledglings.

Even if you do, they are not the main issue, their supporting crew is..
Weeping Willow OP
Dryad Rangers should not have harmony
Sentry? OP.
and ofcourse the infamous winning card "the great Oak"

It's not the dryad fledglings that win the game, it's the other cards. But sure, the 2 fledglings they manage to keep on the board unlocked or unremoved, are good cards.

What annoys me a little is that all the mid gold cards of ST always put 6body on the table in addition to doing whatever they do at deploy. 6body is unusual, 5 is the "normal" high body.

 

[Payus]

What annoys me a little is that all the mid gold cards of ST always put 6body on the table in addition to doing whatever they do at deploy. 6body is unusual, 5 is the "normal" high body.

Out of 117 ST cards, 4 of them have a 6 point body:
-Isengrim
-Paulie
-Barnabas
-Zoltan warrior

Also treant Mantis, but that doesn't count.

But doesn't really matter because they all play for more with harmony engines.

 

[StrykerS77]

Well, this has been in play since forever. I hardly think it has gone unnoticed, but. I don't think it is an issue personally. It depends on how hard you push the other rounds, most likely you will not end up in a last round with 4 Fledglings.

Even if you do, they are not the main issue, their supporting crew is..
Weeping Willow OP
Dryad Rangers should not have harmony
Sentry? OP.
and ofcourse the infamous winning card "the great Oak"

It's not the dryad fledglings that win the game, it's the other cards. But sure, the 2 fledglings they manage to keep on the board unlocked or unremoved, are good cards.

What annoys me a little is that all the mid gold cards of ST always put 6body on the table in addition to doing whatever they do at deploy. 6body is unusual, 5 is the "normal" high body.

Putting four fledglings on the board in one turn compounds the issue of harmony decks because there are so many harmony tags being put on the board that removing enough of them to win is almost impossible.

Did you just say that Dol Blathanna Sentry is over powered? Tell me that is a mistake.

 

[mazeebra]

Treant Mantis does count, he is relevant to the WoB decks and is sometimes played in those in combination with Dryad Rangers and/or Weeping Willow, whom both should not have harmony.

I don't think Treant Mantis needs a 6body with his ability to both trick and poison. Barnabas is an auto-include in most Harmony decks, no? It can brick, sure, but mostly it gives 12 for 10.

All those cards add a kind of tempo in addition to harmony, which you will normally lose 1 body against in every turn, even playing your 5body gold cards.

And then you have Shuttenbach which I think is a grossly miscalculated card at 7p. Maybe 9p is fair, or no armour.

It's not the WoB card in itself which is the issue, in my opinion it's some of the supporting cards.

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2020

Putting four fledglings on the board in one turn compounds the issue of harmony decks because there are so many harmony tags being put on the board that removing enough of them to win is almost impossible.

Did you just say that Dol Blathanna Sentry is over powered? Tell me that is a mistake.

Yes I did actually. Because row movement is too cheap for ST, which means this card get the same kind of value as greatsword, ergo 6p, although one could argue greatsword is actually a gold(en) card.

 

[StrykerS77]

Yes I did actually. Because row movement is too cheap for ST, which means this card get the same kind of value as greatsword, ergo 6p, although one could argue greatsword is actually a gold(en) card.

You are calling a card OP that I have never seen played competitively ever. wtf

They could buff sentry and it would probably still be fine ffs

 

[mazeebra]

You are calling a card OP that I have never seen played competitively ever. wtf

They could buff sentry and it would probably still be fine ffs

Isn't it in half of the harmony decks?

 

[Archan6el]

I would really like to know how in the world they felt the need to change Novigradian Justice and not touch Waters of Brokilon. That makes absolutely no sense.

When you stop taking the devs' actions seriously, everything starts to make sense in current Gwent.

I think bronze cards should have some sort of "restriction ability" that would prevent them from generating too many points.
Example: Dryad Fledgeling - 4p, 4prov, Harmony, Limit: When this card reaches 7 strength, add cooldown 2 to its Harmony ability .

This is a good suggestion and aligned with the concept of provisions to balance cards around their provision cost, only getting maximum value when played optimally. Currently multiple bronze cards' maximum is OP (especially with no-brain Harmony).

 

[DRK3]

Thanks for all the replies. I will add a few remarks on Waters of Brokilon (WoB):

- i dont think the card is only OP in Mystic Echo decks. If that was the case we wouldnt see it in the other SC Leader decks, but we do, the current top metadeck is a Precision Strike deck and has Fauve and WoB regardless. Hence why i say this card is the root of the problem and until its balanced, no amount of provision changes to SC Leaders will suffice

- Harmony decks are not just really strong, they are incredibly consistent (good in all situations) but worse of all, they are braindead decks. Before it was pointslam MO, but now the roles are reverted: SC used to be a faction that required skill and strategy, now you actually need more of that in a MO deck than in an Harmony deck that just plays itself regardless of the matchup.
As a veteran, this is one of the most saddening things to see happen to Gwent, seeing super easy decks to pick up being so dominant, and when decks are more important than the players, in dictating who wins...

- The Great Oak is another card accused of being OP. I really hate the card, however if im being impartial, i think if the rest of SC was properly balanced this card would not feel as such a problem (it has a fixed ceiling of 16pts for 13prov., while other expensive cards can get so much more)

 

[Fhrek1986]

As a veteran, this is one of the most saddening things to see happen to Gwent, seeing super easy decks to pick up being so dominant, and when decks are more important than the players, in dictating who wins...

That!
When a card game is based on the cards and not in the players ability and cleverness, we know the game has failed or turned in the wrong direction.

My cousins and I used to play domino and poker with our grampa, he let us see their piece and cards in all games... and yet he would win most of the time. Because he knew how to play no matter the disadvantage, he was a very serious gamer at his time.

Nowadays, this card games are about the stuff you have and not the quality of your play.

 

[mazeebra]

Nowadays, this card games are about the stuff you have and not the quality of your play.

I have to disagree with that actually. Just recently I opened fresh PC Gwent account and I had the worst collection in the world. Yet I easily made it to level 25, winning almost every single game, against players with both bigger collections and better decks. I even beat pretty good decks too, with my bad deck.

I know some of those people had experience and a good card collection, it's easy to notice the difference. Yet I beat almost everyone with basically just the standard cards, plus a few I crafted and got in kegs. How did I do that?

I did it because I played better than my opponents, despite having a worse deck. From the few cards I had, I was able to make a deck that beat the decks they made from a much bigger selection of cards.

So, I have to disagree with you that "Gwent is not about the quality of your play". It's not the cards you have that matters, it's how and when you play them, and what kind of sequences you use them in.

 

[Archan6el]

Thanks for all the replies. I will add a few remarks on Waters of Brokilon (WoB):

- i dont think the card is only OP in Mystic Echo decks. If that was the case we wouldnt see it in the other SC Leader decks, but we do, the current top metadeck is a Precision Strike deck and has Fauve and WoB regardless. Hence why i say this card is the root of the problem and until its balanced, no amount of provision changes to SC Leaders will suffice

Without a boost limit balanced around provisions, Dryad Fledgling is an OP engine card. WoB doubles and Mystic Echo quadruples this problem. It's impossible to deal with all Harmony cards (and otherwise there would be complaints about too much control). That's why it's so important to balance all (but the most expensive) cards, including engines, around provisions.

- Harmony decks are not just really strong, they are incredibly consistent (good in all situations) but worse of all, they are braindead decks. Before it was pointslam MO, but now the roles are reverted: SC used to be a faction that required skill and strategy, now you actually need more of that in a MO deck than in an Harmony deck that just plays itself regardless of the matchup.
As a veteran, this is one of the most saddening things to see happen to Gwent, seeing super easy decks to pick up being so dominant, and when decks are more important than the players, in dictating who wins...

- The Great Oak is another card accused of being OP. I really hate the card, however if im being impartial, i think if the rest of SC was properly balanced this card would not feel as such a problem (it has a fixed ceiling of 16pts for 13prov., while other expensive cards can get so much more)

A certain dev indicated in some dev streams ago that he likes big point swings. That's what we're getting with the Harmony, Poison and Destroy no-brain mechanics. The Great Oak is another example of dumbed-down big point swing nonsense, because with the last few patches it has become very difficult for ST to not fill a row with units. Too obvious.

 

[Fhrek1986]

I have to disagree with that actually. Just recently I opened fresh PC Gwent account and I had the worst collection in the world. Yet I easily made it to level 25, winning almost every single game, against players with both bigger collections and better decks. I even beat pretty good decks too, with my bad deck.

...

Yeah yada yada... I made a new account as well before stop playing for good.
I managed to reach rank 13, Prestige 1 in a week using just the Scenarios and Poison/Siege Meta deck at the time. So, my MMR filled pretty quick and the "luck" and "ability" started to fade.
As myself your "easely made it to level 25" was more MMR at working than "play ability or card collection". In Gwent until our MMR is at maximum the game is casual and regular, after that the odds and RNG will face us with so called "challenges players". In other words Meta Deckers and Copy paste Net Decks that play for themselfs, players ability has little to nothing with it. If Your mulligans don't favor your hand over you opponent you will lose using the same cards as the other half is using.

I lost count how many times I beated someone just because I got an Aristocrat more than my opponent, or he failed to neutralize a Defender or Damien or Stefan order.

All in all... after sometime Gwent IS about the Cards you have and mulligans phase, your play ability is just as equal your opponent.

A certain dev indicated in some dev streams ago that he likes big point swings. That's what we're getting with the Harmony, Poison and Destroy no-brain mechanics. The Great Oak is another example of dumbed-down big point swing nonsense, because with the last few patches it has become very difficult for ST to not fill a row with units. Too obvious.

Which is very sad and bad for the game... is no news that if a DEV is fond over one faction the game is balanced around it. Obnoxious practice, because the game has to be balanced for all, not just for the DEVs desire.

 

[DRK3]

I have to disagree with that actually. Just recently I opened fresh PC Gwent account and I had the worst collection in the world. Yet I easily made it to level 25, winning almost every single game, against players with both bigger collections and better decks. I even beat pretty good decks too, with my bad deck.

I know some of those people had experience and a good card collection, it's easy to notice the difference. Yet I beat almost everyone with basically just the standard cards, plus a few I crafted and got in kegs. How did I do that?

I did it because I played better than my opponents, despite having a worse deck. From the few cards I had, I was able to make a deck that beat the decks they made from a much bigger selection of cards.

So, I have to disagree with you that "Gwent is not about the quality of your play". It's not the cards you have that matters, it's how and when you play them, and what kind of sequences you use them in.

Im sorry, but once again you are completely deluded. First, i assume you mean rank when you say level.

And from Rank 30 to 25 is the area for beginners using starter decks and that barely know the game, so someone experienced having no trouble in that climb is no big deal at all. Even from 25 to 15 its mostly players who still dont know the game, but they may start getting some decent decks.

Also, the game has been simplified and dumbed down so much even at high ranks like 5 to 1, there are still lots of Prestige 0 and 1 players, as a Prestige 8 i felt like a college student in kindergarten. And guess what they were using - finetuned netdecks for NG, NR and SC that can carry any player into high ranks.