Isnt it time for Waters of Brokilon to change?

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Im sorry, but once again you are completely deluded. First, i assume you mean rank when you say level.

And from Rank 30 to 25 is the area for beginners using starter decks and that barely know the game, so someone experienced having no trouble in that climb is no big deal at all. Even from 25 to 15 its mostly players who still dont know the game, but they may start getting some decent decks.

Also, the game has been simplified and dumbed down so much even at high ranks like 5 to 1, there are still lots of Prestige 0 and 1 players, as a Prestige 8 i felt like a college student in kindergarten. And guess what they were using - finetuned netdecks for NG, NR and SC that can carry any player into high ranks.

Rank ofcourse, yes. I know rank 25+ is bad. But it's also returning players like myself. I could easily see that some of those guys had experience and a way bigger collection than my completely new account.

Anyways, I won against better decks and better collections, due to the way I played those cards. My point being that it's not all about the cards as Fhrek claims, it's also about the decks you put together and the way you play them. And really, my deck was terrible, it was basically just whatever cards I had available tossed together in a deck, no way fitting together well, not even reaching the provision limits etc and having more cards than 25. It was a disastrous deck, but it was what I had, and it was enough to win almost every single game (not due to the cards or the deck).. Ofcourse many of the opponents were bad, but surprisingly many had decent decks with non-starter cards, and I know a few were returning players.

Besides, console moving players have to start back at the lowest rank too, something I will experience when my account is finally moved over.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
I know i created this topic to complain about Waters of Brokilon, and the conversation also referred the Great Oak, which i hate but i played the devil's advocate and defended it, considering its 13prov for 16pts.

But i return! Now with a criticism!

One of the reasons why Oak is so OP is not just its cost-ratio, or how easy it is ot obtain value from it. Is its versatility.

It can boost or damage or any combo inbetween at the player's choice.
This is kinda unfair, there arent any other golds that offer this versatility.
Last night i felt outraged because of two situations - in one i lost because i had really great cards but they were control and my SC opponent had last say, so they bricked. On the other, i had last say and tried to deny value from the opponent putting few pts on board but it doesnt matter since the Oak play will just adapt into any situation, so i lost again.

Wouldnt a good nerf to oak be instead of just provision changes, change him into being just damage or just boost? It would be a start to make him less 'auto-include' in every single SC deck.
 
And from Rank 30 to 25 is the area for beginners using starter decks and that barely know the game, so someone experienced having no trouble in that climb is no big deal at all.

Nor do I, despite the fact that the lower rank competition is stiffer than ever now due to people moving from console to PC. Now that I finally have my transfer done and play normal, over 50% of games down there are against experienced people with big collections and/or high prestige levels.

Just goes further to prove my earlier point that it's not necessarily which cards you have/play, but how you play that matters, in contesting the point of the guy Fhrek who said it's just about which cards you have and no skills etc.

So, it's not such a breeze that I assumed it would be actually. I'm not just demolishing everyone effortlessly.
 
I don't think WoB is "the most OP card in the game right now," far from it. Nor do I think the fact that Harmony's been doing well for a while is a sign that it needs to be nerfed, because how dares it.
That said, there are some tweaks that could be made, both to WoB and Harmony.
1. You should not be able to play this card twice in the same round via MEcho. WoB is basically an 8-point engine that gains 2 points per turn. Aside from Scorch and reset, there are just not enough turns in a single round to deal with TWO engines like that.
2. Maybe remove the "Nature" tag. Make it a spell? Kinda clunky, but I don't think Fauve should be able to tutor it. This will decrease consistency of the Harmony decks by A LOT. Right now, you have to be really unlucky not to open a round with WoB, and more often than not, instead of a 2-unit, 8-point, 2-per-turn engine, it's a 3-unit-10-point one, which is a BIG difference.
3. Maybe increase provision to 12 and make it pull units instead of spawning? Make it similar to Portal, but limit to 4p ST units? True, it will thin, not this would not be a complete nerf, but it would also ensure people have to include 3 cards in their decks to specifically be able to use this engine, instead of getting a freebie. Right now, does anyone have actual fledglings in their decks? Probably not. This would make sure they did.
4. One of the things that bothers me a lot about harmony deck is that as an opponent, you are discouraged from removing these cards, because removing a category will trigger Harmony AGAIN when that category is reintroduced. Oh, you want to remove the Willow? That's cool, but you just gave the Oak extra 6 points or whatever. Managed to kill Percival? Great. Barnabas now a freaking 20-point play instead of 12. This should not happen. Each category should trigger harmony only once per round.
5. The sentinels should not be Harmony-tagged. They got damage and poison already, no need to also make them an engine.
6. Do something to Sirssa. It's pointless in harmony decks, and it's pointless in handbuff because it's so clunky. I want to use it! :D
 
It's not waters of brokilon which is the issue, nor fledlings.

The problem is that WAY too many units have harmony, and it's way undervalued. Look at Dryad Ranger, damages 2 AND poison AND has harmony, it's ridiculous.

Many of the cards that currently have harmony should not have it. WoB is not the issue.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Water of Brokilon is the first card to enter a Harmony deck, its the constant in Harmony decks all these months that it has been popular - the ST leader changes but the Fauve+WoB remains there, so im not convinced by your arguments that WoB is not the problem.

Im not saying its the only problem, that the devs fix that one and Harmony will automatically be perfectly balanced, but its where they should start.
 
It's not waters of brokilon which is the issue, nor fledlings.

The problem is that WAY too many units have harmony, and it's way undervalued. Look at Dryad Ranger, damages 2 AND poison AND has harmony, it's ridiculous.

Many of the cards that currently have harmony should not have it. WoB is not the issue.

Just curious but did you think that Novigradian Justice needed to be changed?
 
Waters of Brokilon, 11 provisions, spawn 2 (4pt) Dryad Fledglings.

I will say this - this is the most Overpowered card in the game right now, the one doing the most damage to what could be considered a state of balance.

Lets look at the facts: since it was added in Crimson Curse expansion, it created the Harmony deck.
The Harmony deck has remained at the top of the meta (lets say top half of the factions) for around 9 months now. It's the only one that can boast this - other dominant decks have come and gone, "nerfed to oblivion" as we say, but Harmony always dodges those nerfs (i blame Burza and his love for the Squirrels... :ok:
Btw, Gwent HC is now 16 months old - that means for more than half of its existence, Harmony has been a top deck.

We have seen nerfs to Mystic Echo, in a vain attempt from CDPR to tone down this madness. What happened? Shifted to Call of Harmony (and Mystic Echo still strong as hell). And with the February patch, both those leader abilities got nerfed and what happened? Now Precision Strike is more popular, just as the Elves ability (cant remember the name). And guess what? They ALL use that goddamn Waters of Brokilon, its the safety net that keeps SC on top no matter the nerfs other cards get.

Sorry for the rant, its been quite some time since i did one of these, but i think it was necessary. And im probably even forgetting lots of things about how bad this card is to the game.
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(EDIT) ooops, actually forgot to mention a suggestion. Well, the card was nerfed a while ago to only spawn 2 fledglings if there's a dryad on board, but it was reverted to this state where it always spawns 2. The first step would be to go back (not that it would change much, considering its usually played with Fauve)
Then a serious provision nerf (increase to 13, maybe 14 considering what it does on Mystic Echo decks)

(EDIT) i tried playing Invigorate and Guerrila Tactics without WoBrokilon, when i faced other SC decks it was like going into a knife fight and a gun fight at the same time, barehanded...

Pro rank player here. I think the problem with mystic echo is it has too much versatility, which means it does not really have a hardcounter gameplay wise, and it allows players to make mistakes. I think the problem does not necessarily lie on the water of brokilon. Let's list the strengths of mystic echo: good long round(even though overshadowed by the kind like draug/greatsword), numerous engines (everyone of them is good), does well against tall punish, does well against control or removal, does very well against bleed etc. Do you see the problem here? Other decks can excel in some regards more than harmony, but unlike harmony, they never simultaneously possess all these strengths.

Nilfgaard solder ball is quite coin depended and plays into tall punish

Tactic Helge has terrible long round

Draug can't win round 1 for shit

Syndicate is miserable with blue coin etc..

Too balance harmony, I think we need to remove one or more of these strengths so that players actually gets punished by mistakes and are thereby forced into making better plays and taking risks.
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Random thought on WoB, what about rework it with an initiative tag were you only get the 2 fledglings through initiative, and either only 1 if tutored, or a different set of units entirely if it's tutored?
 
Suggestion: make it doomed so that it can't be replayed and buff up Mystic Echo provsions instead by 4-5.
 
Another option to cut reuse for WoB is to make it a Spawn and Destroy. It spawns the Fledglings and destroys itself so Echo can't bring it back.

I really think this would be the best solution to all of those bloody scenarios as well.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Suggestion: make it doomed so that it can't be replayed and buff up Mystic Echo provsions instead by 4-5.

That seems to be the best option, making Waters of Brokilon and Mystic Echo incompatible, whether through doomed or making it an artefact or a limit to ME's provision card.

However, buffing ME by so many provisions after is not sensible, not when there's still Novigrad Justice and Call of the Forest.
 

Guest 4404014

Guest
Too balance harmony, I think we need to remove one or more of these strengths so that players actually gets punished by mistakes and are thereby forced into making better plays and taking risks.
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Good summary. I agree 100%.

But how would you make harmony less versatile? Personally, I think it's ST brown base that is just too good. You can very often win R1 by the sheer value and utility from the bronzes. But I wouldn't miss the engines. I think Pavko and Boar could see some nerfs to decrease harmony's long round potential. Or like someone said nerf tutorship to decrease consistency.

WoB with Mystic Echo itself is fine imo, I agree with that.

make it doomed

It would ruin the whole concept.
 
Good summary. I agree 100%.

But how would you make harmony less versatile? Personally, I think it's ST brown base that is just too good. You can very often win R1 by the sheer value and utility from the bronzes. But I wouldn't miss the engines. I think Pavko and Boar could see some nerfs to decrease harmony's long round potential. Or like someone said nerf tutorship to decrease consistency.

WoB with Mystic Echo itself is fine imo, I agree with that.



It would ruin the whole concept.


I don't think mystic echo is too strong in its round one, compare to the kind of monster decks or lippy, it has limited point slam which means it cannot red coin abuse that well. Its engines also takes time to ramp up given their low initial power.

To throw some balance ideas out here. Maybe we can first reduce the amount of harmony tags in the current list, for example, trained hawk. Other than that, I think Malena needs to be row locked because now Malena is just an insane movement tool that counters every other row locked cards/defender/movement tool in the game.

To completely balance mystic echo, we might just to reduce the number of engines it has, or further reduce its provision cap. At the moment, it has a lot of engines while it can also run the kind of oak and Barnabas. The former suggestion would make harmony players more cautious with committing their engines. The latter will make players choose between either running fewer engines or running fewer point slam cards. This means harmony can no longer be insanely good at both long rounds and short rounds.
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