Issues with Gunplay with Cyberpunk

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I've made this thread on Reddit, hoping developers will see it here.

Some comparisons:

1. Gun sounds:

Standard Pistol/auto fire in 2077:


Now compare it with same type of weapon in different game/similar setting:


You can hear how "beefier" is the sound in Syndicate, with a far more bass, reverb, that audio "oomph" that gives a real sense of power ( from a gun)

2. Hit reactions also need to be massively improved:

Max Payne III had some of the best animations/hit feedback:


Now compare this with last year demo's:


V unloads entire clip into enemy's head, they are completely unprotected, and he barely flinches!

3. Ragdolls:


There is some sense of force here, but they simply "fold over" too quickly ( almost looking like they had a stroke)

I'm super satisfied with what CDPR is doing with world, rpg mechanics, and every other aspect of the game...but gunplay seems like it we be weakest link here.

Similar problem was with Witcher: it was criticized ( so much) not because it did everything poorly, but in what mattered the most ( for combat): swordplay.

And majority of players here are definitely going to be using guns: Shooters are extremely fun/popular for a simple reason: single click->instant gratification. ( through visual/audio/hit feedback)
 
To some extent I agree, but there are a few things that forgive this to my mind. Firstly, and most importantly, this is an early build. The gunplay could be improved in any number of ways before release, and we should at least wait for the updated gameplay demo at pax before we start actually worrying about it.
Secondly, the rpg nature of this game means that sometimes you'll shoot things, and they won't die, because you're underleveled. Having the massive impact of a gun at early stages in the game would steal from heavier impact later on, and the examples you gave (aside from the shotgun) are supposed to be from near the beginning of the game.
The enemy's reactions, too, have to be based in a system where they can take dozens of bullets and survive.
I just don't think we have enough to go on to warrant concern, yet. But it's definitely worth keeping an eye on in future gameplay.
 
V unloads entire clip into enemy's head, they are completely unprotected, and he barely flinches!

Yep, it's an RPG where stat' is important like a Divinity Original Sin, an Elder Scrolls and many others ^^

And Max Payne is a TPS. Rules are differents

In each games, bullets or/and weapons have stats but with TPS / FPS, you don't need to go deep with it because it's not the goal (except with FPS/RPG like Borderlands). You are here to shoot and kill basically. With an RPG, progress of your character is the core gameplay making a difference between two builds and not juste where i shoot (headshot is often a critical strike, probably same with Cyberpunk)

Ps. I probably misunderstood cause your criticism was about animation i think, sorry :sad:
 
To some extent I agree, but there are a few things that forgive this to my mind. Firstly, and most importantly, this is an early build. The gunplay could be improved in any number of ways before release, and we should at least wait for the updated gameplay demo at pax before we start actually worrying about it

Nope. Jackfrags wasn't impressed on the gunplay either on the new demo so they kept it the same route. This was my only complain back when the first demo released and surprisingly same as the op I compared it with Syndicate, that game nailed at gunplay. Cyberpunk needs work on this aspect (How it feels shooting, not enemy hit) since it's an rpg you're right on the hit impact, but you can't deny that the gunplay is weak, casual and feels clunky, it is very easy to fix this, but it'll probably make the controller players throw it away so... :(
 
Max Payne III had some of the best animations/hit feedback:

I'm a simple man: I see rockstar and the euphoria engine, I press like.


BTW, who has seen the game says that melee is even worse. Good thing is that CDPR will try to address the problem:

Sasko made no attempt to hide the demo’s rough edges was encouraging. In fact, he implied that the game was almost content complete and that the next 10 months would be used primarily to refine and polish what’s already there.
[...]
PS: Oh, I think there’s a few things that we still will be working on. One thing is the gameplay side and the animation system. For instance, our melee combat still requires a bit of work, making sure that all the punches feel good – especially for all the weapons. For instance, the hammer; it needs to have the correct weight but it doesn’t really have that yet [one of the boss-like characters wields a large hammer in the demo – GC]. Those are not really big issues, but when you play… when it’s really good you feel it. When it’s not really good you also feel it! [laughs] I think we’re in the position where we almost have it, but not yet. And I think there’s still space to make it better.
GC: Apart from some AI bugs, the one thing that worried me is the gunplay. It’s difficult to judge without going hands-on, but watching it it seemed a little clunky? As great as Witcher 3 was I think most people would agree the combat was the weakest element…
PS: Yes, yes.
GC: All the different weapons look great but what if they’re not really that much fun to use? Are you implying that that’s something you’re still working on?
PS: Oh yes, the gunplay is one of the core elements. That’s something that we started working on in the very beginning and will work on more and more…
GC: I don’t think you’ve made a shooter before, so did you get in developers that do have that kind of experience?
PS: Yes, definitely. We hired a lot of people after Witcher 3. We have people that worked on first person shooters before and I, myself, worked on a first person shooter 10 years ago. [laughs] So there are people on the team who did work on games like this, and we have plenty of experience. But, of course, the team as a whole has never made a game like this, so that’s why I also feel that we probably need a little bit more time to get it right. I’m happy with what we have but there’s still lots of space for improvement.
https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/17/cyberpunk-2077-preview-and-interview-i-just-love-my-work-9973737/

That being said, I'm not optimistic on the fact they'll try to add contextual animations (opening doors, picking items up, interacting with keypads...) if they already have all these problems with "compulsory" animations.
 
I am convinced the devs are improving exactly this sort of stuff during these 10 months before the launch. They have literally said so, as the game is now near content-complete. I wouldn't be too critical toward anything you see in that 2018 video honestly.
 
Yeah this and driving are my biggest concerns since they haven't done either before. I think the E3 demo shows promise but needs to be improved in every area, especially animation, feedback, enemy hit reaction and sound design.



Doom and BF3 do these things better than most shooters imo. Everything about the weapons sounds and feels right. The sound design is layered and has real heft to it. It should also be mentioned how inconsistent sound design was in TW3.
 
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geocp

Forum regular
So far I've read 2-3 opinions from people who watched the 2019 demo stating that they thought last year's gunplay looked better.

It's an open world rpg where story comes first, I get it, most of us in here get it, but this game has been hyped like the second coming of Jesus.
If the two most important elements that the casual gamer expects from a modern open world game (gunplay, driving) are mediocre then I'm afraid that the game's reception from the general public will not be that good, even if the story and the rpg elements are top notch.
 

Guest 4149880

Guest
So far I've read 2-3 opinions from people who watched the 2019 demo stating that they thought last year's gunplay looked better.

It's an open world rpg where story comes first, I get it, most of us in here get it, but this game has been hyped like the second coming of Jesus.
If the two most important elements that the casual gamer expects from a modern open world game (gunplay, driving) are mediocre then I'm afraid that the game's reception from the general public will not be that good, even if the story and the rpg elements are top notch.

I personally don't agree with the idea that gameplay quality should be compromised simply because of "story" or "RPG" features, as all of these are separate counterparts that have no real bearing on each other. It's a matter of the quality development that goes into them individually.

There would be no logical reason to downgrade a set of FPP gunplay mechanics/fluidity because of a story plot, nor should a story plot affect how well the vehicles handle in an open world or how RPG elements are implemented. We're talking about a group of 450 people are working separately on each of these features and bringing them together.
 
I've made this thread on Reddit, hoping developers will see it here.

Some comparisons:

1. Gun sounds:

Standard Pistol/auto fire in 2077:


Now compare it with same type of weapon in different game/similar setting:


You can hear how "beefier" is the sound in Syndicate, with a far more bass, reverb, that audio "oomph" that gives a real sense of power ( from a gun)

2. Hit reactions also need to be massively improved:

Max Payne III had some of the best animations/hit feedback:


Now compare this with last year demo's:


V unloads entire clip into enemy's head, they are completely unprotected, and he barely flinches!

3. Ragdolls:


There is some sense of force here, but they simply "fold over" too quickly ( almost looking like they had a stroke)

I'm super satisfied with what CDPR is doing with world, rpg mechanics, and every other aspect of the game...but gunplay seems like it we be weakest link here.

Similar problem was with Witcher: it was criticized ( so much) not because it did everything poorly, but in what mattered the most ( for combat): swordplay.

And majority of players here are definitely going to be using guns: Shooters are extremely fun/popular for a simple reason: single click->instant gratification. ( through visual/audio/hit feedback)

Agree with everything except rag doll physics. I'm guessing you've never seen someone die from being shot. They don't make a lot of movement. They just crumple to the ground. If in being real honest, the rag doll effects are still pretty over exaggerated. A shotgun blast won't send someone flying back.
 
Agree with everything except rag doll physics. I'm guessing you've never seen someone die from being shot. They don't make a lot of movement. They just crumple to the ground. If in being real honest, the rag doll effects are still pretty over exaggerated. A shotgun blast won't send someone flying back.

True, and I'm not expecting here "super arcady" style ( like in Rage)...but they kind of feel fake? There is no real sense of "rewarding kill", they kind of just collapse.

Mafia 3 is probably a better example of this ( with more emphasis on realism)


I think people overlooked this ( last year) as demo moved fast between encounters with more emphasis on movement, I doubt it was in any way "downgraded".

For driving, imo it would've been better if it was entirely First Person ( it's much easier to get it right from that perspective), most people don't seem to care about it nearly enough ( compared to seeing your character walking around in TP).
 
If the two most important elements that the casual gamer
I don't think it's a matter of casual gamers, it's a matter of having a good gameplay. Watch dogs has an awful driving which makes it almost impossible to play without getting frustrated.
They're called videogames, gameplay is the most important part.

If there's something that's really important for casual gamers (not only, otherwise people wouldn't spend 1000$ for a RTX GPU) and is not as important as gameplay, it's graphics.
 
True, and I'm not expecting here "super arcady" style ( like in Rage)...but they kind of feel fake? There is no real sense of "rewarding kill", they kind of just collapse.

Mafia 3 is probably a better example of this ( with more emphasis on realism)


I think people overlooked this ( last year) as demo moved fast between encounters with more emphasis on movement, I doubt it was in any way "downgraded".

For driving, imo it would've been better if it was entirely First Person ( it's much easier to get it right from that perspective), most people don't seem to care about it nearly enough ( compared to seeing your character walking around in TP).

Nope. When someone gets shot in the head, theres no 'fall to knees, put hands to head, then fall down.'

Go to a place with really soft ground. Close your eyes and let your legs give out. Your going to get close to what being shot in the head looks like. It won't be exact, because your brain is still trying to brace the fall for you.

And the fly back from the shotgun is still very unrealistic.

Its really hard to describe what dying looks like to someone thats never seen it really happen.

I would give you a suggestion, but I think it would be against the rules.
 
Nope. When someone gets shot in the head, theres no 'fall to knees, put hands to head, then fall down.'

Go to a place with really soft ground. Close your eyes and let your legs give out. Your going to get close to what being shot in the head looks like. It won't be exact, because your brain is still trying to brace the fall for you.

And the fly back from the shotgun is still very unrealistic.

Its really hard to describe what dying looks like to someone thats never seen it really happen.

I would give you a suggestion, but I think it would be against the rules.

Video games ≠ Reality.

Developers change nearly everything to remove, reduce aspects we find boring, unenjoyable or exaggerate the opposite. You cannot really judge it by how % close to realistic it is.

In this case, I think is believable enough for most people ( and let's be honest: looks "cool" or gratifying), without being too arcady/silly like in some other shooters ( Rage 2, Doom, etc).
 
Video games ≠ Reality.

Developers change nearly everything to remove, reduce aspects we find boring, unenjoyable or exaggerate the opposite. You cannot really judge it by how % close to realistic it is.

In this case, I think is believable enough for most people ( and let's be honest: looks "cool" or gratifying), without being too arcady/silly like in some other shooters ( Rage 2, Doom, etc).

I'm not saying the ragdoll in CP77 is bad. I actually think it looks good. I'm just saying that if a point of complaint is that it's not realistic enough, the goal should be as realistic as possible. Not swapping one ragdoll physics for another. Because there's no ragdoll physics that are realistic.
Indeed, so let's not go there.

Sorry
 
To point number 2. I agree and think a balance can be struck between the realism and RPG 'stat' elements. When shot in the head the enemies should just sit there like nothing's happening. They should recoil and try to find cover. Cases varying based on one's Chrome. If someone's got some sort of super skull well they might not bother with cover, but ideally they'd show some sign of feeling the impact. Also body part damage has been shown to play a part in the game, shooting someone's eye out should hinder their accuracy and of course both eyes blinding them, unless they have a third cybernetic sense they can utilize to their advantage. Obviously most people shot in the head don't survive in real life, but there are still ways to make the game feel more life like even with stat based combat mechanics.
 

You can hear how "beefier" is the sound in Syndicate, with a far more bass, reverb, that audio "oomph" that gives a real sense of power ( from a gun)
Weird, I always have the feeling that guns in games seem completely off because they sound too "beefy" and have way to much bass and oomph. The weapons also often sound way too clean, too refined in a artificial way, as if they had been reworked with a sound mixer way too much, to eliminate any scrape, screech and cracks that might be uncomfortable to the ears.

Why don't we compare game sounds with movie sounds. Here is the shootout scene of the movie "Heat", which is, till today, heavily praised for its realistic sound effects, and these aren't even effects. These are the real sounds of the seen weapons that were fired with blanks. No reworked sounds in post-production, just what the mikes recorded during shooting.


That's what I am missing in any game I have played, or seen on youtube, the loud, chaotic, ear piercing sounds that get mangled together until it becomes hard to listen to it.
 
Im playing Division 2 atm, if they can do equal to that, Im quite happy. Division 2 is sluggish though, its because of online? Thats why I hope they dont do online with this game.
 
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