Josh Sawyer (Fallout New Vegas director) explains some issues with the gameplay balance and UI

+
Source: https://jesawyer.tumblr.com

I need to actually play around with the inventory and other interfaces in CP2077 more to do a full critique of them, but I think there are two root problems from which most other UI/UX issues stem:

1) Inconsistent and/or unexpected control mapping for keyboard and mouse, which feels like a consequence of designing and playing with controllers exclusively/dominantly until late in development. M3 and keystrokes are not the same as 3rd and 4th face buttons on a controller, but controls have to go somewhere.

2) Overloaded controls. Sometimes designers develop controls to give equal access to every interaction at a given point. That’s usually not good, because every interaction doesn’t have equal importance, frequency, or even similar use cases. When you force the controls to support every interaction you could possibly want to do at a single point, the mapping gets complicated, crowded, and unwieldy.

I need to play more with the RPG systems as well, but I don’t like sifting through half a dozen variants of the same pistol or scope mod that differ in DPS or ADS time by single digit percentages or literally hundredths of a second, respectively. It’s inconsequential noise. If it doesn’t make any perceptible difference to the action economy or the utility of how I use the gear, it doesn’t matter to me and the process is just tedious.

Yes, I understand this is how many looter shooters work and also how The Outer Worlds works. It’s not gameplay I personally find enjoyable or interesting.

It looks like the perks get more useful / interesting later on, but when base level perks are giving things like 3% increases to damage, it falls into the same pit of “this makes no difference in gameplay”. This is exacerbated by the fact that the pace at which you will upgrade or swap out weapons is much faster than the pace at which you gain perks.

You have a rifle that does 100 DPS. You take a perk that increases damage from cover by 10%, so that goes up to 110 DPS. Unless the per-shot damage increase from the perk results in fewer bullets to take out an enemy, that is completely imperceptible. Then, after taking that perk, you upgrade to a different weapon, which becomes your new baseline inclusive with the perk. So if you take another perk that increases damage by 10 or 15% under certain circumstances, you’re not comparing its efficacy to the old rifle, before you took the first perk. The delta will feel the same, i.e. inconsequential, especially if enemies gain HP at a rate that matches your progression.

All of this amounts to a linear “ramp” incline where your numbers go up but the feeling of efficacy/”time to kill” is largely the same and you’re not usually gaining any new mechanics or different ways to engage with the content. I prefer less frequent, more impactful upgrades that do not directly overlap with how content (i.e., enemies) progresses.

Visually, it’s like two staircases going up, one for your stats/abilities, one for the monsters. The monsters’ steps don’t overlap with your steps, so there will be points where you upgrade and just clobber the hell out of enemies for a while until you hit the next monster step. Then you struggle for a while before you step up, repeating the cycle.

Classic AD&D has this feeling, as does Fallout 1. There are a lot of things I wouldn’t want to emulate from those classic games, but I still really feel they have a better sense of progression, especially in the 4-12 level range.

That said, I’m only 7ish hours in and I need to play a lot more to do a fair and thorough critique of everything.

At last, someone put to words my opinions and experience with the gameplay of this game.
 
The Fallout UI is a simulation of a computer from a universe where GUIs were never invented though. It trades some usability for immersion.
 
The Fallout UI is a simulation of a computer from a universe where GUIs were never invented though. It trades some usability for immersion.
That is okay for UI style but a terrible argument for UI design. Also kinda not true...
The Fallout (3) UI is what it is because it was developed with consoles as priority. The UI is made with a controller in mind, not M&KB.
 
"Inconsistent and/or unexpected control mapping for keyboard and mouse, which feels like a consequence of designing and playing with controllers exclusively/dominantly until late in development. M3 and keystrokes are not the same as 3rd and 4th face buttons on a controller, but controls have to go somewhere."

Yep. You could tell this in TW3 as well. I really don't understand their dismissal of a platform that, correct me if I'm wrong, nets them the most money.
 

Madae

Forum veteran
He has a point about the perk percentage increases being rather lame, but that's really it, imo. Doesn't take much of an expert to point out that a 3% increase is insubstantial and barely noticeable. Not all perks are this way, though, so after a balancing run, we'll probably get some tweaks.

Controls were fine on PC.
 
A little bit too quick to judge considering he only had 7 hours in the game but ok, i love Josh either way.(y)
 
A little bit too quick to judge considering he only had 7 hours in the game but ok, i love Josh either way.(y)
Yeah but some of the basic mechanics that he mentions are clear from the beginning, it's not like the structure of the UI changes as you progress through the game.
 
im really enjoying the game bugs and all.... The amount of good work in this title is amazing.

Work out the kinks and this
cyberPunk2077.png
game will be a classic for years to come.
 

Attachments

  • cyberPunk2077.png
    cyberPunk2077.png
    4.1 MB · Views: 62
The user interface is difficult to read, too many things on overlays possibly and you need to navigate multiple, disconnected menus to do things all the time. You get used to it sort of but its far less than user friendly.

I had to give up on keyboard and mouse. The controller is much easier but I have all kinds of trouble with it still. Dashing? Crouching? I can barely do them or not at all. Driving is a awful really but the bikes are better than cars.
 
Yeah but some of the basic mechanics that he mentions are clear from the beginning, it's not like the structure of the UI changes as you progress through the game.

I was speaking mostly about the damage progression part of his critique. Sure, a 10% damage increase perk may not look much at first, but when you realize that the damage is count 'per bullet', and rifles and submachineguns are spitting bullets like no tomorrow, and half of you bullets will be critical hits, and and and...

By mid game, his weak rifle will be a killing machine able to diss some crazy numbers and these crazy numbers is what will allow him to clear the southern regions of the city. Content outside of Watson and Westbrook(gigs, crime scenes, etc) is crazy hard for under-leveled characters.
 
Damage perk is one perk in each weapon tree, what about the rest like crit chance, crit damage, reload speed etc etc, in fact some perks can make certain weapons absolute monsters, try Comrade's Hammer with the last bullet in clip does double damage and tell me how “this makes no difference in gameplay”

Also lol at "That said, I’m only 7ish hours in and I need to play a lot more to do a fair and thorough critique of everything." errr you just did critique it, I do like Josh but this just feels like another person jumping on the bandwagon of hate directed towards CDPR at the moment.
 
I agree on point regarding itemization, the looter shooter aspect ruins Cyberpunk and the joy of owning a piece. Also a game thats is all about contacts bringing you the best so you can have the best outcome of a mission, it failed by a longshot.
No interaction with black markets, no actual military grade gear, the borderlands weapon is just squeezing lemon to a gaping wound. You are not interested by the weapon brands, fabrication, you just end up seeking the dps numbers.
 
I agree on point regarding itemization, the looter shooter aspect ruins Cyberpunk and the joy of owning a piece. Also a game thats is all about contacts bringing you the best so you can have the best outcome of a mission, it failed by a longshot.
No interaction with black markets, no actual military grade gear, the borderlands weapon is just squeezing lemon to a gaping wound. You are not interested by the weapon brands, fabrication, you just end up seeking the dps numbers.

I dunno. My first playthrough I was a shotgun guy, and I certainly was following the whole idea of always switching to a new gun (and finding it frustrating). This time I'm playing a stealth/assault build, and focusing on SMGs. I'm actually deconstructing/crafting, and upgrading my favorite pieces as I go along. I've had the same blue submachinegun for the past 15 or so levels. I've actually got my favorite pieces, and the upgrade system is working fine.
 
I dunno. My first playthrough I was a shotgun guy, and I certainly was following the whole idea of always switching to a new gun (and finding it frustrating). This time I'm playing a stealth/assault build, and focusing on SMGs. I'm actually deconstructing/crafting, and upgrading my favorite pieces as I go along. I've had the same blue submachinegun for the past 15 or so levels. I've actually got my favorite pieces, and the upgrade system is working fine.
You probably can find better stuff already laying with random npcs that you kill, remember that upgrade scale the cost and its not worth pushing at certain point or you are basically setting eddies on fire. I won't say no one like the system because you are the living proof that you are having a good time with it, but for an RPG of this scale? I expected much better, even more after reading CP2020 rules.
 
By mid game, his weak rifle will be a killing machine...
Rifle? A YouTuber pointed out that pistols are ridiculously OP thanks to some thoroughly unbalanced perks. One lets pistols act like sniper rifles by removing distance penalties (and you can use silencers on pistols, too!), while others give you stacking crits on headshots.

Sawyer was right about controls, though--I gave up on driving because it's like bumper cars when I try to drive with 4 awkwardly placed keyboard keys. I remapped them to QWES so they weren't so awkward, but I still can't steer for crap. Please let us steer with a mouse, like every other dang game!
 
Top Bottom