Judy ... ugh ! [Spoilers]

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Your interpretation of what happens in the game is neither better nor worse than mine. It's just another opinion.
Agree a lot with this part. When I replied earlier with how I view the specific Eve dying or not as a set in stone part of the story, is definitelly my view that for me, that choice and how it affects the rest of the game is good for me. The lack of being hunted down is gravely missing. Even switching apartments after the Heist. And I also agree that the game itself promisses more branching stories in the begining. First playthrough how not to stop and wonder for a second if we try to ditch Dex following Eve's proposition, the Militech chip variances. But on the same first playthrough if we opt some dialogue choices and see the difference we start to unveil that how the gameworld is presented is not how it is interacted with.
Edit: sorry River-Twain, didn't read before posting
 
I adore Judy the most, but we have to admit that although she tries to pretend otherwise, deep down she is still a violent Mox (killing the woodman, storming the clouds, are her ideas not mine...) Her intentions are noble but he doesn't hesitate to use the people around her without thinking about the consequences.
Another thing I don't like about her is that she is very jealous, as evidenced by the emails between her and Maiko in Ex-factor.
That said, she seems to me the cutest in the game and she is very sweet when she wants.
 
Her intentions are noble but he doesn't hesitate to use the people around her without thinking about the consequences.
I wonder what "use poeple" would say.
Because she ask to every one if they are ok to do it (no lies at least, no misunderstandings...) Everybody involved are aware of what it'll happen and agree :)
She simply ask for help, everybody are free to refuse, V include ;)
 
I wonder what "use poeple" would say.
Because she ask to every one if they are ok to do it (no lies at least, no misunderstandings...) Everybody involved are aware of what it'll happen and agree :)
She simply ask for help, everybody are free to refuse, V include ;)
Being asked nicely doesn't make it any less manipulative. I think she herself is not aware to tell the truth but she gets others in trouble for her ideals. Even Johnny points this out of her at one point and he's an expert. Also if you refuse or charge for it, love is over baby and these are things that happen in the game not headcanon.
If you want, I'll go deeper: with River, his nephew's life is at stake (so everything is justified), with Panam I feel like a friend is calling me because I know how to do certain things, while with Judy you feel like she's just looking for the only merc she knows. And this only changes after the scene on the couch. Of all Judy is the one who gets you into the biggest mess not to mention asking (practically demand) you to kill Woodman for her if you haven't already. I think the latter can hardly be argued.
And don't get me wrong I love Judy, look at my avatar, but she's far from perfect. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing either.
 
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Being asked nicely doesn't make it any less manipulative. I think she herself is not aware to tell the truth but she gets others in trouble for her ideals. Even Johnny points this out of her at one point and he's an expert. Also if you refuse or charge for it, love is over baby and these are things that happen in the game not headcanon.
If you want, I'll go deeper: with River, his nephew's life is at stake (so everything is justified), with Panam I feel like a friend is calling me because I know how to do certain things, while with Judy you feel like she's just looking for the only merc she knows. And this only changes after the scene on the couch. Of all Judy is the one who gets you into the biggest mess not to mention asking (practically demand) you to kill Woodman for her if you haven't already. I think the latter can hardly be argued.
And don't get me wrong I love Judy, look at my avatar, but she's far from perfect. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing either.
V is a mercenary and constantly solves various problems related to the elimination of the target and the like. Judy offers to help her, even offers a fee for your participation. What are you talking about? Panam offers to kill Nash as soon as you returned her car. You can refuse. So what? is she manipulating you too ? poor thing, everyone is trying to manipulate him as soon as they open their mouth lol. V positions himself/herself as a mercenary, how dare they see him\her as just a mercenary?)) Wake up man, in this world everything is always connected with violence one way or another. It feels like we were playing completely different games. That's how it happens in life, you look for a job, you help people, you don't help if you don't want to, you make new acquaintances, friends.
 
When Panam tells you to go kill Nash, she doesn't even know who you are and you can refuse which seems completely fair to me. After that she help you in the main story and is quite considerate afterwards and asks you several times why you help her. Woodman is an execution and Judy expects you to do it for free (or for love/friendship of her what is even worse). Check that dialogue tree again. Sorry but Judy basically bases your relationship with her on expecting things from you, cigarettes included. Not giving back once. And it's her personality!
Of course she offers you money for the big heist and if you accept it you stop interesting her as a person for the rest of the game and that's my whole point. By the way Judy doesn't treat you like a friend until she finds out you're dying even when you went to comfort her when Evie committed suicide. She doesn't care that you were nice when you met her: It doesn't matter that you rescued Evie, it doesn't matter that you call out to her throughout the game. Nothing, nada.
At no time am I saying that she is bad, all the characters in the game exhibit different degrees of selfishness, that is the gritty world of Cyberpunk after alI. If we put it this way, the only character that is a true friend and gives you something unselfishly is Viktor Vektor.
It seems to me that we have played different games indeed.
 
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Of course she offers you money for the big heist and if you accept it you stop interesting her as a person for the rest of the game
I assume you mean she stops being romanceable? If that's the case are you sure that is true? As far as I know the only way to prevent the romance (apart from saying no or variations of) is to take Mako's money...?
 
When Panam tells you to go kill Nash, she doesn't even know who you are and you can refuse which seems completely fair to me.
And Judy has known you for some time, and what does that change?
Woodman is an execution and Judy expects you to do it for free (or for love/friendship of her what is even worse). Check that dialogue tree again. Sorry but Judy basically bases your relationship with her on expecting things from you. And it's her personality!
At the same time, Panam calls you and asks for help with her clan. Several times. She also expects to hear a positive response from you. And it's okay when you call someone and ask for something. Otherwise, why call then, if you know that you will be given the answer "no" ??
Of course she offers you money for the big heist and if you accept it you stop interesting her as a person for the rest of the game and that's my whole point.
As far as I know, the only thing that matters is accepting money from Maiko, not from Judy at her house. The same situation is in The Witcher 3, when Ciri sees Geralt accepting coins from the Emperor. You've made your choice.
By the way Judy doesn't treat you like a friend until she finds out you're dying even when you went to comfort her when Evie committed suicide.
Because you are, in fact, nothing to her. You've known each other for at most a couple of days lol. And she changes her attitude to you when you helped her what a surprise , right ? We are judged by our actions , can you imagine ? The only friend you had at that time was Jackie and you built a relationship with him for six months.
If we put it this way, the only character that is a true friend and gives you something unselfishly is Viktor Vektor.
Ye right, that's why you owe him a couple of tens of thousands of dollars for implants. And even reminds that it does not do it for free in messages when it comes to clothes in the wardrobe. I'm not saying that you don't have to pay for services. I'm saying that for free you can only ask Hanako for help, come there like a pathetic little dog and give them the chip. This is free (the ending is always available in any scenario) and you don't even need to have any relationships with manipulative people like Panam, Judy, Rogue (sarcasm).
It seems to me that we have played different games indeed.
Then you really should play cyberpunk 2077 :sneaky:
 
Of all Judy is the one who gets you into the biggest mess not to mention asking (practically demand) you to kill Woodman for her if you haven't already.
Just to remender the dialogue for Woodman :)
Judy : "Wait a sec. What about Woodman ?"
V : "Well, what do you wanna do ?"
Judy : "I want somebody to unload lead into his face till there is no face."
V : "Somebody ?"
Judy : "Fine... Want you to do it."
V : "Don't have an ounce of sympathy for that motherfucker" or "No, we don't care about him" (if V want)
Judy : "So... we goin' there ?"
V : "Damn straight. Let's end him."
So I wonder where is the "manipulation" here... She ask help to V, a merc, who usually kill for money... So if V want, V can refuse... V is not a "brain dead dude/girl", he/she is able to take his/her own decision :)
Being asked nicely doesn't make it any less manipulative.
And for the next "ask" during "talkin' 'bout a revolution", no manipulation too...
Idealist, "naive" maybe/certaintely, but no manipulative at all :)
Judy : "So how about it ? V ? Tom ? Roxie ? Made up your minds ?"

And about Johnny, to said it "nicely", it's bullshits from an "expert" of manipulation and lies (even with his closest friends...)
 
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When Viktor gives you those implants no one knows if you're even going to come back. And in case you don't know, when you return it to him, he tells you to keep the money because you will need it more. He also saves your life for free when you get shot in the head and give you his old clothes as a gift (dlc).
Everything you've said about Judy again doesn't invalidate my point that she subconsciously manipulates people. This is basic psychology she sends you to hell or see you as a "bad person" if you don't agree with her (text messages, emails with Maiko, bad choices).
V is not stupid allright but because of a friend you end up doing things you don't really need to. She gets you in trouble with the Tyger Claws dome, the most powerful gang in town. And if you want us to see it from the logic of the lore of the game, it is one of the most risky jobs that V gets into. (apart from Konpeki)
Johnny in his cynicism is often right. Im not playing on english but this is his description of Judy in the game: "When you have a colleague who begins to ask you for increasingly strange things, there are the problems."
And about the other characters we would get off topic but each one has their own share of problems yeah but at least Panam motivation for calling you the first time around its Saul kidnapping (life/death).
 
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V is not stupid allright but because of a friend you end up doing things you don't really need to.
It's like to be "friends", doing something who you don't need, just for help...
V don't need to help River (V meet him few days ago), but V can do it.
V don't need to help Kerry (it's Johnny's friend, not Vs), but V can do it.
V don't need to help Panam (V also meet her few days ago), but V can do it.
(the same for Delamain, Peralez or even Johnny...)
And for her messages, in view of her past (which couldn't be more sadier...), it seem obvious that she have problem to trust "strangers" (especially the ones who don't care about her and others problems...)

She gets you in trouble with the Tyger Claws dome, the most powerful gang in town.
V don't need Judy for that, he/she already have the most powerful corpo in the world on the back (at least Yorinobu at some point). Also Maybe Militech or Maelstrom... V does it very well alone :)
Johnny in his cynicism is often right. Im not playing on english but this is his description of Judy in the game: "When you have a colleague who begins to ask you for increasingly strange things, there are the problems."
Like him, who ask to assault the Arasaka tower for a wrong reason... who simply was supposed to talk to Rogue at the afterlife... Yes, for sure, make sense to listen his advices :)

Edit : And little detail :)
If V don't want to help Judy for the Clouds, it like he/she said (Johnny's words^^) :
"Not my problem, I have better things to do. I don't care about you, the clouds and yours stupid doll friends..."
So V receive the same kind of message than from Panam : "F..k off dumbass !"
 
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Judy's character is all over the place in terms of emotions during the course of the Evelyn questline but it's understandable knowing what she goes through and I wouldn't call her needy or whiny because of that. She want's justice where none can be had which fuels her actions and reactions and if you pay attention to the details you can actually learn a lot about her (granted, the devs also put some obvious hints in her appartment ).

Let's take this from her perspective.
Judy has a relatively stable job that pays well, gives her access to new technology and leaves her with enough free time to let her pursue her hobbies. She could very well spend the rest of her life in repeat mode where she goes to work on some virtus and goes back to to tend to her art and craft. Maybe she takes some days off to go on a retreat in the desert or to do some diving just to escape the pressure of the city and sink her sorrow after the most recent break-up. She has little to no ambition in life and just want's to have someone close that would spare a shoulder for her to rest her head on. A bit of real mutual love and respect.
Anyway, the city, she is tired of it, the noise, the light, the people... It's no wonder that she dives. That dark and silent space is like a protective shell where she can cleanse her body and mind. Plus, the place she likes to dive in used to be her hometown. The amount of memories there, I'm sure she looks back fondly especially when thinking about her grand parents.
We learn about this naturally during the events of the game.

Then shit hit's the fan and her world is turned upside down.
In short, her friend Evelyn comes up with a plan to earn some cash and help from Netwatch that will supposedly get them both out of this shitty and boring life. But in the end instead, Evelyn's brain is fried and her body abused in unspeakable ways leaving Judy (as anyone in her position I would assume) to get enraged towards the people who enabled it and took advantage of it as well as towards the system that wouldn't even lift a finger to send an ambulance when needed.

As a player, I pretty much understood what and why she was going through. The pity, the rage, the helplessness, the sorrow. I found the Evelyn quest-line to be the most emotionally charged. I wished there were more options to stay at Judy's apartment or to provide help and support to Evelyn. I didn't really care about the romance at first but i went on with it if only to comfort her, yet, the diving sequence made my V fall in love. but even without it, I just wanted to be there for her as a friend. Which is a f-ing big compliment for the devs who wrote her character.

Yes, we have a broken chip killing us right now but pressing on about it in each conversation can be seen as whiny and needy as well. More-so if you do that instead of helping out a friend in distress. We've been going on for week's at this point and we're still alive with a minor case of J.S so I'd go as far as to say it shows more about the V complaining or maybe that's the Johnny getting comfortable in V's head.
 
Easy answer > matter of tastes/opinion.
And Judy had a rather sad life.
  • She lost her parents very soon.
  • Alone with her grandparents.
  • Mocked and missunderstood during her childhood
  • Her hometown was submerged under waters.
  • Living since alone in the middle of Night City working on porn BD in an insanitary basement (all day long).
  • In love with Maiko, a heartless manipulator...
  • She lost her best friend sadly (Evy).
  • The Clouds still what it was, whatever you can do/choose.
The opposite of Panam where except with Saul, has always had a good relationship with his "family" and unfailing support by them. Two different life, two different character indeed :)
exactly this, the girl is needy because she needs those things, she needs love and compation and attention, she needs that she is not only an npc.
 

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After a few playthroughs, I don't "romance" Judy. It's not because my V doesn't like her, it's because my V likes her too much. She has a much happier and fulfilling life if she leaves NC, instead of being with a merc who's only going to be alive a few weeks at most. River might enjoy those weeks and recover from V's death, but it would just be another blow to Judy, maybe the final straw.
The pics and messages from Judy after she leaves are heartwarming.
 
After a few playthroughs, I don't "romance" Judy. It's not because my V doesn't like her, it's because my V likes her too much. She has a much happier and fulfilling life if she leaves NC, instead of being with a merc who's only going to be alive a few weeks at most. River might enjoy those weeks and recover from V's death, but it would just be another blow to Judy, maybe the final straw.
The pics and messages from Judy after she leaves are heartwarming.
I also had such a thought. This is reminiscent of the ending of the movie "The Butterfly Effect", where Ashton's character decides that the heroes will have a better future where he will not be around. But I don't think it's gonna work in this world, so I decided to keep Valerie and Judy together. Besides, if it wasn't for V, Evelyn would have found another mercenary and everything would have gone to shit anyway. Perhaps things would only get worse for the characters.
 
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