Justice system and investigation

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Justice system and investigation

I think the only court system (of sort) was in Chrono trigger but it was very fun. Albeit it was not very meaningful overall (you got convicted either way), I would like to see something akin to this in CP77.

It would provide for a much more careful playthrough and there would also be no guarantee. Say,
You make a hit in a dark alley but are obligated to do a quick getaway... you ditch your weapon into a trash can and make a run for it. The game would then determine:

-has the player been spotted on camera?
-has the player been using an identity over and over again?
-Has the body been hidden?
-Have there been witnesses?
-Are those witnesses criminals (more willing to take revenge while respecting omerta) or civilians (more apt to call the police)?
-Is the victim alive?
-Have someone simply betrayed the player?
-Has the player taken care to remove his fingerprints from the scenes?
-Is there a pattern (same gun used, etc)
etc

You return to the scene of the crime later on.

Uh-oh, cops are on the scenes. Not only that they have found your glock and are sending it to the CSI unit for fingerprint analysis. They are also asking private business and the NCPD HQ for footage of the scene. The investigation skill of the leading detective was particularly high

Since you are used to playing Skyrim, you decide not to change address and sure enough, 3 days later, you hear a knock knock at 3 AM in the morning. You are quickly put in the slammer awaiting a court date.

--OR--

You make the mistake to check in at a major hospital for surgery instead of your friendly neighbourhood underground clinic. The detective follows the paper trail and 2 weeks later, nabs you by the collar.

Ideally, there should be a court day where the prosecutor makes his case, your attorney makes his case and the jury goes into the little back room and read out the sentence afterward. But I'm not sure if the tech is quite there to make the scene unique enought o make it enjoyable.

Of course, if the cops' personality are rogue, they might just want to say you shot them while they read your miranda rights.

Advantages:

-It would raise the difficulty of the game. For non-public crimes,the consequences are delayed, you do not know if, or when police response will come (unless you hacked into the local precinct or paid someone to see how's the investigation is going of course).
-If some missions are time sensitive (be there @ wednesday at 22 PM), then you would flunk a slew of missions.While in prison, you would still have to pay rent (if you have real estate). If you have businesses, there would be opportunity costs also.
-This would introduce heavy costs to the player. You could now lose the game simply or be in a really bad position by making a slew of bad strategic choices (as opposed to say, forgetting to hydrate yourself or simply getting shot).


-It would allow for some kind of political system where you can game the system, you could influence key officials to close their eyes, intimidate key witnesses into silence, intimidate the other guys' lawyer, insure for a more liberal district attorney, etc

Thoughts?

 

[Mikedudeh]

Good thoughts Poet, as always. I've been kinda thinking along these lines lately too. I don't think we will see court rooms to much in 2077, justice in Night City is mostly paperwork-less shoot first, ask questions later style street justice. As for the moments you dont get caught, that's were I like where your headed. By 2077 surveillance and forensics would be astoundingly thorough. Imagine the thrilling, immersive gaming experience where forensic evidence is the consequence of murder (like the real world) instead of a lame karma system that turns killing into a apathetic RP mechanic. And along the lines of your "game keeps track of actions" thought I think this is how it could work AMAZINGLY....

The other night I listened to a radio program that talked about AI, they discussed A LOT of cool stuff but the thing that stuck out to me was the story of a guy who has developed a software program that can write sports articles. The only thing you need to do manually is enter the games statistics. The program then takes them and, using algorithms, a rudimentary knowledge of English grammar, and a pool of sports jargon, writes an article.

Videogames are chalk FULL of statistics from your favorite weapon to the amount of times you've entered the strip club or sat in a chair. If a similar program could be implemented it would be astounding. Imagine the news channels having stories that write themselves, on the fly, bringing new relevant content to the game every day, long after the devs have moved on to there next masterpiece. Imaging turning on the tv and seeing a report of the firefight you were just in with a booster gang. Eyewitnesses or, if none, forensic teams, could comment on the number of bullets they think were fired, the number dead, the weapons used, the color of your leopard blazer, and cost of property damage. Gang battles and firefights are common so thorough investigations probably won't happen often. But pull something bigger off and you might need to cover your bases. Where you seen or stealthy? Did you pick up your brass or hire a "cleaner"?(if that's not to mundane) Or maybe you don't care, you have people in high places that can silence lips. Or maybe you use an untraceable blade, augment, or blackmarket weapon. And that's just justice and media, imagine if other facets of the game like economy and society were also involved.

This technology already exists and the the author of the sports AI has since adapted it to do several other things for different companies that have commissioned him. If CDPR reached out too it would most likely cost less than a programmer or two's 2 year+ salary and bring a lot to the game. Perpetual gameplay is pretty much what every sandbox game strives for in some way and it's what makes EVE so addicting. The great thing is an ALIVE game is just a few years of AI advancement away. Or is it?

 

[vykaus]

I've thought about these kinds of gameplay mechanics a lot. My conclusion has been that (more advanced) AI needs to be implemented for similar mechanics to really shine. In the meantime, with current tech, we can find solutions but I am more concerned about the amount of resources needed for implementation. Can't wait til we have advanced AI that can have programmed human-like traits, then this sort of thing will be relatively easy.

It would be really awesome if they implemented a news coverage thing like you wrote about Whisperfoot.

 

[227]

I think the only court system (of sort) was in Chrono trigger but it was very fun. Albeit it was not very meaningful overall (you got convicted either way), I would like to see something akin to this in CP77.

Whaaaat? You can totally avoid the conviction if you just bring back the girl's kitty, refuse to sell Marle's necklace to Melchior, wait for her to buy candy without trying to run off, and don't steal that dude's lunch. Sure, you end up in prison either way, but that way you're technically acquitted. It always bothered me that you can wait out your sentence before breaking out and the guards still chase after you, though. I mean, the king was there during the trial, so he should have been able to figure it out once he showed up. Stupid inbred royals.

Oh yeah, and I like the idea, but it seems way too complex, which would probably make it impossible to implement. Besides, making things too complicated would most likely take away from the fun of beating the system. Even a stripped-down version would be pretty cool, though, like if you had 4-5 elements that you had to watch out for when breaking the law, or else face a day in court. The idea of bribing and stuff is just too much, though. Too many moving parts. "Easy to learn, difficult to master" is usually a good thing to strive for.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

The Uniform Justice Code of 2020's America replaced the legal system we know today. It isn't quite the 'shoot first, ask questions later' outlook, but it is certainly more streamlined. All crimes are graded by priority between 6 which is the lowest to 1 being highest. These bandings each have a standardised range of punishments and the accused is handled differently and has different rights depending on said grade. Here are some examples:

Handling Stolen Property - Priority 6
Sentence: Return of ali materials. Fine 50eb+ and/or 1 Month to 1 Year in Low Security Block.
Low-Priority Crime (LPC). Individuals charged with a Rank 5-6 crime have the right to secure a Defense Attorney; they are also allowed two phone calls and retain the 'right to remain silent." They must be given a 'Preliminary Hearing' wilhin 48 hours (where bail may be set). The trial date must be set no later than two weeks from the preliminary hearing, or the trial is declared void. In most cases, LPC trials are presided over by a Judge who sets fines and short sentences; however, an AI may be used in some cases to speed the process.

Aggravated Assault - Priority 3
Sentence: 1-7 Years in Mid Security Block or PsychoBlock and Personality Adjustment and/or Braindance.
Note: HiWay dispenses Death for this crime.
Mid-Priority Crime (MPC). The individual retains the right to remain silent and is still allowed to secure an Attorney in his defense. He may be held for a week before a 'Preliminary Hearing', and during that time he may not make contact with anyone: no phone calls, no visitors. Most of this time is likely to be spent in holding cells and interrogatlon cubicles.

Mansaughter or Murder 1 - Priority 2
Sentence: 0-5 Years in Hi Security Block for Mansalughter, Death for Murder 1.
High-Priority Crime (HPC). This is very serious and the charged individual foregoes all rights, including the right to remain silent. Once charged, the perp may be forced to undergo interrogation under truth serums, lie detectors, psychological reality simulations and analysis. The perp must be allowed a Preliminary Hearing within two weeks. At this time, aJudge (human or AI) will determine the possibility of bail and set the date for atrial. The Judge will also decide whether to alfow the defendent a Lawyer, dependent upon whether the Judge sees any ambiguity in the presented case. Anything more than a20% margin of error and the Judge will allow aDefense Attorney. The trial is presided over by aJudge and four AI's who will pass sentence.

Corporate Murder or Mass Murder - Priority 1
Sentence: Fine of 1000+ eb, 10-20 Years in Top Security Block, or Death for Corporate Murder, Death for Mass Murder.
Top Priority Crimes (TPC). The perp has no rights whatsoever. Once the individual is determined as the perpetrator, an execution order can be issued and he may be terminated by any authorized body.

Crimes are being commited all the time and the volume of them is beyond what the official police departments can cope with. If you can keep below their radar, the police are unlikely to spend time coming after you because they are too busy. There are private police forces too, employed by the corporations to police the corporate areas and they are often better equiped than the official police, though they also tend to have different principles and motivations. There are just too many crime scenes for a 'CSI' team to attend all of them. It would have to be a fairly high profile incident to draw that kind of attention.


Much of this discussion seems to revolve around the media aspect. This I really like. The dark future is driven by the media, (just as our world is today.) Evidence and truth can become secondary to public opinion in determining who is guilty and who is innocent. I think this line of thought could offer a huge benefit to the immersion and the style afforded by 2077.

 

[JeromAsdert]

Isn't it how Blood Money did the newspaper?

 

[quartermaim]

Interesting idea, but if the idea is to be an Edgerunner and most likely break the law or at least sneak past it, then it should be a part of the game. Yet things like looking for cameras and such might become more tedious.

I know paranoia is important in a Cyberpunk game but too much might make the game lose its charm.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

This technology already exists and the the author of the sports AI has since adapted it to do several other things for different companies that have commissioned him. If CDPR reached out too it would most likely cost less than a programmer or two's 2 year+ salary and bring a lot to the game. Perpetual gameplay is pretty much what every sandbox game strives for in some way and it's what makes EVE so addicting. The great thing is an ALIVE game is just a few years of AI advancement away. Or is it?

I agree...I think Watchman already has a similar feature.

I strongly believe an alive game is the way that the open world/sandbox/RPG game is (or should be) going. I am looking forward to photo-realistic graphics for this reason, after this, there are only gameplay advances that can keep the industry fresh.

Lots of indie games are shooting for an open world,

http://ltheory.com/

I don't see a reason why a triple A studio cannot do this as well. Right now, the focus has been heavily on Hollywood-style storytelling, but there are many many ways to tell a story...

Crimes are being commited all the time and the volume of them is beyond what the official police departments can cope with. If you can keep below their radar, the police are unlikely to spend time coming after you because they are too busy. There are private police forces too, employed by the corporations to police the corporate areas and they are often better equiped than the official police, though they also tend to have different principles and motivations. There are just too many crime scenes for a 'CSI' team to attend all of them. It would have to be a fairly high profile incident to draw that kind of attention.

Yes, I agree, I've touched upon this a bit in the economy thread. Police should have limited resources just like other organizations.

There should be areas which are virtually abandoned but there should be a couple of places where the rule of law is still supreme (if somewhat influenced by guanxhi). Even in Mexico, there are places which are considered safe and firmly in the hands of the govt.

I think though that even for abandoned areas, it shouldn't preclude raids from the central government if things get dicey. .

For those who do not like complexity and think the game would lose its charm with all the surveillance and politics, they could play a thug or a drug addicted punk in an abandoned area and seldom meet a cop let alone an attorney.It doesn't exclude a more traditional RPG playthough as they could be venturing in the civilized world only when extraordinary circumstances arise.

In the elders scrolls, I was never really interested in magic or alchemy, but I am certain many many people were.