Kills vs Unconscious need more fine tuning

[Surma.]

Whether someone dies or just falls unconscious is pretty influential factor on experiencing the combat.

1.) I can't be only one who thinks that anyone getting shot over 0 health should not be considered as "unconscious", I think it should be pretty obvious kill.

2. a) And I don't really think there should exist weapon sockets that just make weapon shoot people unconscious rather than kill. Especially increasing damage is just weird. I mean I imagine if weapon was non lethal, it'd do less damage to shoot bullets at least in non-lethal speeds.

2. b) I mean it's a cool idea to have this in socket, but I think non-lethality should be reserved for specialized weapon like sleeping darts and shooting rubber bullets from specialized shotgun.

3. No difference between the two, mechanically. Outside of quest reward you don't really see any impact. I think you should be aware of any penalties of leaving witnesses or killing everyone.

4. I think some sort of Karma / reputation system would be needed in order to impact your style, currently only difference I see is that killing gang members gives you more street cred, but that's it. Or if there's other influence, it's very much hidden from players.


I don't know if they completely scrapped the gang chases or it's a feature to come, so one option would be of course once you anger gang enough, they'll send a group after you, similar to the early shooting missions from car. Or/and other option is to establish some gang relations with fixers. Wakako for example being Tiger Claws member, maybe she would pull all her missions out if you attack her gang.

Of course this would mean some reworks with some main quest dialogues where you talk to her, like for example if you've been good relations with Tiger Claws, she'll gladly give you the security detail on parade, while if you've killed a lot of her brethren, you either have to seek help from someone else, or there's a new dialogue added where she'll almost threaten to shoot you, and there's an option to calm her down and she'll may give the details with lets say 10 000€$ and tell you to gtfo and never come back.

Also ofc if you're friends with Tiger Claws, haven't shot any and just chill with them, maybe you get special loot in those crime scenes for free, and maybe you get extra missions to deliver different gang members to the Tiger Claws for these events.


I think there's a lot of opportunity to fix this game, which wouldn't require too massive overhaul, and I think something like this should be done.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Of course this would mean some reworks with some main quest dialogues where you talk to her, like for example if you've been good relations with Tiger Claws, she'll gladly give you the security detail on parade, while if you've killed a lot of her brethren, you either have to seek help from someone else, or there's a new dialogue added where she'll almost threaten to shoot you, and there's an option to calm her down and she'll may give the details with lets say 10 000€$ and tell you to gtfo and never come back.

"Some reworks" ?
I don't know when it's possible to have "good relations" with Tygers Claws (or with any other gangs)
Generally, there is only two interaction available with Tygers Claws, it's "kill or knockout" them.
And honestly, Wakako said "My guys..." but she's sending V to kill/rob Tygers in few GIGs without problem...

And for the non-lethal bullets. I can "imagine", It's simply 2077's bullets !
Hight speed but non-lethal
Like in 1980, if you could said :
In 2020, I'll have a "smart-phone" which fits in the pocket, waterproof, without any button (tactil screen), connected to wireless net and on which you can watch videos and play video games.
Everyone would have told you that you were crazy

 

[AikoHayashi]

- No problems with the non-lethal mode. It doesn't make your weapons in a magical way non-lethal, you can still kill an enemy if you don't stop in time. It makes actually the gameplay fun because I cannot shoot or hit with melee weapons like crazy, but I need to stop on time and have more controlled combat. By the way, even rubber bullets can kill. And it is a game.

 

[reaper1]

And for the non-lethal bullets. I can "imagine", It's simply 2077's bullets !
Hight speed but non-lethal
Like in 1980, if you could said :
In 2020, I'll have a "smart-phone" which fits in the pocket, waterproof, without any button (tactil screen), connected to wireless net and on which you can watch videos and play video games.
Everyone would have told you that you were crazy

....and if somebody told me it was possible to fire a bullet at high speed at a human target yet have that bullet "stun" rather than cause serious or life threatening injury, I could say they were forgetting the laws of physics. It makes no logical sense the way it was implemented, it is just a cheap and easy game mechanic. Not the sort of thing that is unique to CP2077, but not my preferred way of seeing these things implemented in any game.

 

[_Fender_]

Yeah, I dont mind non-lethar guns although I used them only couple of times as in general I prefer stealth non-lethar approach. I guess it might work for some people and game doesnt force you to use that type of modification if you dont like.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

....and if somebody told me it was possible to fire a bullet at high speed at a human target yet have that bullet "stun" rather than cause serious or life threatening injury, I could say they were forgetting the laws of physics. It makes no logical sense the way it was implemented, it is just a cheap and easy game mechanic. Not the sort of thing that is unique to CP2077, but not my preferred way of seeing these things implemented in any game.

The problem with the laws of physics is that they are always true until another comes to replace/conterdict it.
Ex: Like for the time, before Einstein which was everywhere and always the same. Whereas we now know that this is not the case.

But we deviate from the subject
Few examples ingame, the auxiliary heart (who revive you immediately after a death), the soulkiller, you can switch mantis blade to gorilla arms in few seconds... No sens ? Yes, certainly ! Because, It's simply a game

 

[reaper1]

The problem with the laws of physics is that they are always true until another comes to replace/conterdict it.
Ex: Like for the time, before Einstein which was everywhere and always the same. Whereas we now know that this is not the case.

No. There are many ways the game could have handled it that has some internal logical consistency and doesn't involve magic "hand wavery". To make excuses for the game on the basis of the laws of physics being subject to change (?) is a stretch. The laws of physics do not change. Human understanding of them may, but the way the Universe works remains the same. It is simply another example of taking the quick and easy route of implementation for a game mechanism.

 

[Surma.]

she's sending V to kill/rob Tygers in few GIGs without problem...

You could always try figure these things out that it'd make sense.

I think it'd be more interesting if in game you were forced to choose between which gang you piss off and which gangs you favor, and not just being a guy who goes and kills all gang members.

Maybe there could still be NEUTRAL fixers but at least some of them could be tied to specific gang reputation, that'd make it way more interesting.

 

[AikoHayashi]

No. There are many ways the game could have handled it that has some internal logical consistency and doesn't involve magic "hand wavery". To make excuses for the game on the basis of the laws of physics being subject to change (?) is a stretch. The laws of physics do not change. Human understanding of them may, but the way the Universe works remains the same. It is simply another example of taking the quick and easy route of implementation for a game mechanism.

Almost all games work with magic. The character is hit by multiple bullets or grenades, drinks a potion, and everything is forgotten. This goes against the law of nature

 

[mbrto]

i completely disagree
i love that i can render any weapon non-lethal by using the pax mod
dont like it? dont use it

 

[reaper1]

Almost all games work with magic. The character is hit by multiple bullets or grenades, drinks a potion, and everything is forgotten. This goes against the law of nature

Yes, that is true, but to use that as a justification for any and all weak implementations of game mechanics in a game that strives for immersion in other areas becomes a bit of a stretch. It was just far easier to make an arbitrary weapon mod magically have regular bullets become non-lethal than to implement it by other means, such as a taser type stun ranged weapon.

 

[Surma.]

i completely disagree
i love that i can render any weapon non-lethal by using the pax mod
dont like it? dont use it

The thing though it kinda takes away the immersion, if you're able to edit something as crucial as killing a person.

I think there should be gameplay altering things required for you to just take down enemies, rather than kill them, without just putting a socket into them.

Like imagine throwing few grenades that blows up a car, and then nearby enemy is just labeled unconscious.

I'd rather see specified guns like "Riot Gun" that fires rubber bullets, and makes a "WHOOOOOMP" sound when you shoot from it like it's ammunition was hollow, rather than "BOOOOOOM" it normally makes.


I think this would give them more ability to create new wacky items. There could be electric guns which could be designed to do just that, to shock people rather than kill.

This would be called "The Shocker" which would launch a burst of short range electricity which would home to nearby target.

There could be things like "Shockwage Gun" that just makes enemies travel through air and perhaps get knocked down in process and perhaps take some damage in process, but would be mostly used to push people around.

There could be Water powered guns which shoot a strong stream of water which of course could just knock down enemies, and of course loading them would require pumping them like a regular Super Soaker.

You could even make that weapon have water tank, which fills up every time you hold the weapon under water.

 

[AikoHayashi]

The thing though it kinda takes away the immersion, if you're able to edit something as crucial as killing a person.

I think there should be gameplay altering things required for you to just take down enemies, rather than kill them, without just putting a socket into them.

Like imagine throwing few grenades that blows up a car, and then nearby enemy is just labeled unconscious.

I'd rather see specified guns like "Riot Gun" that fires rubber bullets, and makes a "WHOOOOOMP" sound when you shoot from it like it's ammunition was hollow, rather than "BOOOOOOM" it normally makes.


I think this would give them more ability to create new wacky items. There could be electric guns which could be designed to do just that, to shock people rather than kill.
View attachment 11220638

The rubber bullets have a metal core and still can be deadly Teasers can be deadly, I guess even deadlier for the people with cyberware.
Anyway, even the police nowadays can use lethal weapons, but they are supposed to aim in the limbs to avoid lethal wounds. In 2077 having cyberware that helps with aiming can make things even more believable.
I like to use iconic weapons so the non-lethal option works for me. No problem if they add extra weapons with stun bullets, but I wouldn't call them lazy that they didn't.

 

[Enkidu98]

If I hide a body in a dumpster the game says I killed them.

We all got our crosses to bear I guess.

 

[AikoHayashi]

If I hide a body in a dumpster the game says I killed them.

We all got our crosses to bear I guess.

Do you mean by any chance the quest from Dacota where V shouldn't kill Militech agents?

 

[mbrto]

The thing though it kinda takes away the immersion, if you're able to edit something as crucial as killing a person.

I think there should be gameplay altering things required for you to just take down enemies, rather than kill them, without just putting a socket into them.

Like imagine throwing few grenades that blows up a car, and then nearby enemy is just labeled unconscious.

I'd rather see specified guns like "Riot Gun" that fires rubber bullets, and makes a "WHOOOOOMP" sound when you shoot from it like it's ammunition was hollow, rather than "BOOOOOOM" it normally makes.


I think this would give them more ability to create new wacky items. There could be electric guns which could be designed to do just that, to shock people rather than kill.

This would be called "The Shocker" which would launch a burst of short range electricity which would home to nearby target.
View attachment 11220638

There could be things like "Shockwage Gun" that just makes enemies travel through air and perhaps get knocked down in process and perhaps take some damage in process, but would be mostly used to push people around.
View attachment 11220644

There could be Water powered guns which shoot a strong stream of water which of course could just knock down enemies, and of course loading them would require pumping them like a regular Super Soaker.
View attachment 11220647

You could even make that weapon have water tank, which fills up every time you hold the weapon under water.

i dont want a shocker
i want a non-lethal silenced sniper rifle and cyberpunk gives me that option

i like non-lethal gameplay in metro, but it was limited to stealth. guns blazing always results in killing people

iirc there are non-lethal weapons in deus ex, but its hard to pull off outside of stealth.

cyberpunk gives me all the options: stealth, guns blazing, melee, quickhacks....
all of those playstyles can be done non-lethal without limitations

and i love having that option

 

[seomid]

I partially agree, i think the non lethal mechanic is pretty cool, but it should rather come as non lethal bullets/magazines than non lethal weapon add on. I honestly would love some taser guns, with limited range which would be pretty realistic if you ask me.
Being able to scope somebody out across the entire map with a non lethal sniper rifle add-on seems far from possible to me.
Describing this as 2077 physics is pretty questionable in my opinion and since the game doesn't provide any background information regarding this topic I feel like it's simply overly optimistic.

However this is one of the things I'd bet my left ball on there won't be changes done to it. Especially as apparently some people find it perfect this way.

 

[AikoHayashi]

I partially agree, i think the non lethal mechanic is pretty cool, but it should rather come as non lethal bullets/magazines than non lethal weapon add on. I honestly would love some taser guns, with limited range which would be pretty realistic if you ask me.
Being able to scope somebody out across the entire map with a non lethal sniper rifle add-on seems far from possible to me.
Describing this as 2077 physics is pretty questionable in my opinion and since the game doesn't provide any background information regarding this topic I feel like it's simply overly optimistic.

However this is one of the things I'd bet my left ball on there won't be changes done to it. Especially as apparently some people find it perfect this way.

The non-lethal mode (that still doesn't prevent kills once the enemy has 0 hp) and real non-lethal weapons could perfectly co-exist.

 

[batouyukinawa]

Not realistic? It's an RPG, you're talking about a game that requires multiple shots to one target's head to kill them. You want realism, I think you're playing the wrong game.

 

[Grimlar]

I think its probably incorrect to assume that we are always firing bullets as we understand them today. If we assume for a moment that the pax mod is viable, then the question becomes what does that imply?

For the pax mod to work with no other change to the weapons internal mechanisms I would suggest we would need to be firing non solid bullets, a specially constructed device where its behaviour can be affected by the programming in the pax mod. Dont forget that smart weapons fire bullets that can change direction, so non standard bullets are already a thing in the cyberpunk world.

As a lighter bullet (need space for the electronics) the kinetic energy would be reduced, so its lethality would be reduced, to compensate the 'bullet' would need some other payload to affect the target. Perhaps a nerve agent? Or maybe it is designed to be more blunt and/or crumple more when it hits, incresing its impact but reducing its penetration, or maybe a small electric discharge, enough to affect the nervous system but not much more, or maybe it contains a specialised one use hack device or pretty much any other technology that we dont currently have... Its fifty years into the future after all.

Most of these things could/would be blocked by any half decent armour, but I suspect that the application of a little game 'magic' would allow for shots finding small gaps or seams in the armour.

So, for me, the pax mod is perhaps stretching things a bit in terms of game 'magic' but not necessarily as much as you might think.