Lawyers

[possumhatesyou]

Lawyers

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-22-witcher-2-torrents-could-net-you-a-fineSo when I buy your game, expecting my money to fund your next project (Hopefully Witcher 3), how much of a cut will the lawyers be getting?http://www.solicitorsjournal.com/story.asp?sectioncode=2&storycode=17301&c=1&eclipse_action=getsession&eclipse_action=getsession&eclipse_action=getsessionhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/11/19/davenport_lyons_sra/Just to be clear, your no DRM is great, kudo's for that, but what warped mind decided to bring lawyers into this? Support the people who buy the game, not waste our money (yes, consumers, we buy your stuff, feeds you) on chasing pirates who wouldn't buy the game to begin with? Your going to loose more money then you make.http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/2010/07/ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-riaa-paid-its-lawyers.htmlTo highlight an example "RIAA paid its lawyers more than $16,000,000 in 2008 to recover only $391,000". If you continue on this path, your going to alienate your consumer base like Ubisoft did with "Constant online DRM monitoring".Basically that's it, just wanted to rant. Keep making great games, hope your marketing department learns from this mistake.Edited: Changed Activision to Ubisoft,

 

[possumhatesyou]

Sorry couldn't find edit, meant Ubisoft not Activision.

 

[Whitechip]

Why pay 50 dollars on a game when its easier to just steal it?

 

[Garrison72]

Why pay 50 dollars on a game when its easier to just steal it?

Why ask your mom for a date when its easier to just pay her?Hey, you want to be a thieving douchebag go right ahead, I hope you get fined. This company is only trying to be fair.Really, how f*cking naive are you two? You think people will behave, and not pirate the game at all? That there should be no protection in place for those who made the game and deserve to get paid?

 

[soldiergeralt]

comparing this to the ubisoft method is unfair and reactionary. this doesn't punish legitimate customers at all. in fact, the only reason legitimate customers get to enjoy drm free witcher 2 is likely because of the existence of such a deal.if you are coming from the perspective that this is an ineffective method, that's fine. but this isn't going to affect legitimate customers at all, so why would it alienate them? unless they have sympathies to pirates.also, i don't buy the argument that this will cause a problem for network runners. they need to control what their patrons download, or at least monitor the users activity using a log-in or such. either way, having a legal system intrinsically involves due process.

 

[Eri94_user70]

Although, I understand your consern that gamedevelopers are spending alot of time, energy and money trying to get the downloaders, you still have to remeber that it is the people not the developers who's to blame for this. Developers spend months and months trying to satisfy the public and to earn some money for all their work, is it really them to blame that they are frustrated that people steal the work they've put so much time and money to make?As seamusgod is pointing out, it also feels a bit unfair to compare CD Project to the fail attempt that Ubisoft made.If you are really that conserned about money going to people trying to catch the downloaders, I suggest you get all your friends to buy the game (GoG is the best choice sinse that will be 100% DRM free what so ever) to show the lawyers and distributors that people really care and want to buy this game.And not to accuse you or anything.... But I find it that most people who hate methods to deal with downloaders, are downloaders themself.

Why pay 50 dollars on a game when its easier to just steal it?

First of all, easier to download? You press the pre-order button, fills in where you live and your bankaccount and you're good to go. What's that? 5 minutes of work. Tell me which game you get downloaded on 5 minutes?Secondly, dumbest logic I've ever heard.Why get a girlfriend when it's easier to just rape someone?Why get a job when it's easier to just get a gun and start robbing people?Do you even know the word morality? Although I agree that the difference between rape and downloading are huge, it is still a manner of common courtesy and to separate wrong from right.... And when people are getting so blinded by stupidity that they consider donwloading (a.k.a stealing) to be ok, that's a dangerously stepping down for humanity. (Maybe then we really will have a law allowing child molestion and rape... I mean, people are doing that although it's illegal, and most assulters of rape doesn't get caught anyway.)And why? Let me tell you why. Cause if people continues to steal, all gamedeveloper will either put up failed excuses like AC DRM protection, or they release less and less games to PC. (find that more logically) Not to mention the quality of pc games will also sink.Which mean we will only have one developer left.... Blizzard, who doesn't give a rats ass since they have World of Warcraft and maybe release one, half decent game every two years or so.But hey, if people doesn't even care to show graditude to games they enjoy and play regulary to spend some bucks on it, it tells more about them/your characteristics, behaviour and intelligence than it is shown in the wallet.In the end, it's not downloading who's the problem but cheap people who believes as long as they doesn't get caught everything is legal and ok.

 

[Flash]

I don't get it. CDPR takes a risky path exposing their game to unhampered piracy by removing DRM, a path that removes every annoyance that legitimate players have to struggle with, and you are complaining about lawsuits for pirates? What do you care? You have something to worry about? Are you going to buy the game or steal it?What CDPR is doing is an experiment. If they fail and don't earn enough money to cover the cost of the game production, it will prove that DRM is the only way to go. We'll get more Assassin's Creeds. You like it - go steal more games. It's either DRM or lawsuit. Choose. Choose the future of DRM.

 

[possumhatesyou]

It's amazing when you say something people don't agree with, your suddenly a pirate.If you read the links I posted, and the text I typed again, you'll see the post, AS the topic says, is about LAWYERS.I'll try point form this time.- Releasing a game without drm is good for paying customers.- With or without drm, people who pirate, will pirate.- Taking legal action against said pirates has nill effect, people will still pirate.- Legal action costs money, a lot of money.- Cost of legal action WAY outstrips any amount gained from the accused (example RIAA Link above)- Against the many targeted with "Pay now or we will take you to court" type legal action, many are innocent (Read links in first post) or are treated as guilty without a trial.- Money spent on lawyers could be spent instead on hiring more talent to the studioSo there ya go, my second attempt and last. Pretty basic concept. Don't waste money on lawyers, spend that money instead on making better games please.

 

[yayodeanno.831]

Example of suicidally bad PR, that's how I commented the initiative in another thread. People will always "stick it to the Man". The last thing you want is being percieved as "The Man" by the public. Pirates or no pirates nobody likes bullies. ;-)

 

[tommy5761]

@ possumhatesyouwhile you make some valid points any publisher or game developer cannot just let pirates download whenever or wherever they want without some kind of repercussion else nobody would buy any form of media. Which is why i say that the websites hosting the illegal downloads should be held accountable as well as the people who pirate the media.

 

[Flash]

- With or without drm, people who pirate, will pirate.- Taking legal action against said pirates has nill effect, people will still pirate.

So, the conclusion is - leave pirates alone, they will steal anyway. With or without persecution some people will download pirated copies.Great ideology. What's the next step? Leave car thieves alone - you won't get rid of car theft? Leave drug dealers alone - they will sell drugs anyway? Ignore tax crimes - some people will always cheat whatever you do? Leave criminals alone - there will always be crime regardless of money spent on lawyers?

- Legal action costs money, a lot of money.- Cost of legal action WAY outstrips any amount gained from the accused (example RIAA Link above).

What kind of arguments are these? Should Courts ignore half of the crimes because they cost money, a lot of money? And which crimes would that be? How come pirating is less wrong than tax crimes?

Against the many targeted with "Pay now or we will take you to court" type legal action, many are innocent (Read links in first post) or are treated as guilty without a trial.

So? Among all the accused no matter what crime there always is a small percent of innocent people.The articles you link to show interesting facts, but these are facts alone with no solution to the problem. Putting a blind eye on the problem is not a solution.

 

[instantloanss]

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[pm]

- Taking legal action against said pirates has nill effect, people will still pirate.- Cost of legal action WAY outstrips any amount gained from the accused (example RIAA Link above)

For a start, it's really nice to see some essential words of critic. There are, however two places where our case is different. Let me comment two of your remarks above:ad 1) If someone downloads a game illegally, then pay a fine, I wouldn't exactly say the effect was none - the person paid after all, right? Even if he would download other games later. Who are we to moralize anyone? We're just capitalizing our hard work.ad 2) That's exactly where our case is different. Do you really think that if we had to pay the lawyers from our pocket we'd even think about it? For obvious reasons I cannot publicly explain the business model of how that works in our case, but just to be on the same page - I'm dropping you a private message so that you believe that I'm not bs'ing you. So merry X-Mass / Happy Kwanzaa / Happy Hanukkah...

 

[onkl.627]

Do you really think that if we had to pay the lawyers from our pocket we'd even think about it?

You just shifted the problem elsewhere then. But the money has to come from somewhere and still the costs outweight the gain. Eventually this will affect the retail product and so the paying customer. Increased prices, less funding for the developers, you name it.. and all these factors promote piracy in the end.You would've gained more by saving the money and lowering the retail price instead.

 

[onkl.627]

Here's a great comment from the EG article:[quote author=dsmx]If you allow anyone to easily buy your game from anywhere at a reasonable price in the format they want and they still chose to download a pirated version then they weren't going to buy the game anyway, they are not customers, they aren't lost revenue, they are just people who didn't think your product was worth what you were asking for it at that time.Shrug your shoulders and move onto your next project it is not worth pursuing a group of people who wouldn't of paid for your game anyway and while you can pursue them the odds of you actually catching anyone are laughable and proving they did it is even more remote.[/QUOTE]

 

[tommy5761]

Here's a great comment from the EG article:[quote author=dsmx]If you allow anyone to easily buy your game from anywhere at a reasonable price in the format they want and they still chose to download a pirated version then they weren't going to buy the game anyway, they are not customers, they aren't lost revenue, they are just people who didn't think your product was worth what you were asking for it at that time.Shrug your shoulders and move onto your next project it is not worth pursuing a group of people who wouldn't of paid for your game anyway and while you can pursue them the odds of you actually catching anyone are laughable and proving they did it is even more remote.

[/QUOTE]So what do you suggest they do ?The game (Witcher 2) is already 10-15 dollars cheaper than any other major studio is releasing right now and as developers CDPR cannot just give the game away to any one who wants to illegally download it. I applaud them for taking a stance on this issue. Any article is someones idea or interpretation of how he/she feels about any given subject and i`m sure that if i looked hard enough i could find one that counters the one one you quoted.I am not trying to start any flame war this is just my opinion and nothing else .

 

[onkl.627]

So what do you suggest they do ?The game (Witcher 2) is already 10-15 dollars cheaper than any other major studio is releasing right now and as developers CDPR cannot just give the game away to any one who wants to illegally download it. I applaud them for taking a stance on this issue. Any article is someones idea or interpretation of how he/she feels about any given subject and i`m sure that if i looked hard enough i could find one that counters the one one you quoted.I am not trying to start any flame war this is just my opinion and nothing else.

Where is your opinion and suggestion then? You seem to think that because piracy is wrong, you can't let them get away with it. But in reality there's nothing you can do about it. And hiring those law firms won't do any good other then wasting money on them.This is not about preventing piracy, but how to spend these ressources as meaningful as possible. I already suggested that not hiring these firms and instead lowering the retail price would've helped more. The money is gone either way but the later might have earned them more happy customers. (In this regard I want to point you to this topic)CDR already went the right direction with their DRM-free version, now they shouldn't stop halfway.

 

[tommy5761]

Where is your opinion and suggestion then? You seem to think that because piracy is wrong, you can't let them get away with it. But in reality there's nothing you can do about it. And hiring those law firms won't do any good other then wasting money on them.This is not about preventing piracy, but how to spend these ressources as meaningful as possible. I already suggested that not hiring these firms and instead lowering the retail price would've helped more. The money is gone either way but the later might have earned them more happy customers. (In this regard I want to point you to this topic)CDR already went the right direction with their DRM-free version, now they shouldn't stop halfway.

Theft is theft no matter how you look at it. It doesn`t matter if it`s done by downloading or by walking in a store and picking something up without paying for it. It is still stealing. It also doesn`t matter if the game cost 5 dollars there will still be those who pirate it.My opinion on this is that CDPR has every right to go after the people who illegally obtained copies of the game and if that means that we end up paying a little more then so be it. I also think that they shouldn`t stop with just the downloaders but include the websites that are hosting the illegal downloads as wellI realize that we will probably disagree on this issue so i suggest that we agree to disagree

 

[onkl.627]

Well, I totaly agree with you that theft is wrong and CDR has every right to prosecute as they see fit.The question is, does it make a difference? The RIAA numbers in the very first post seem to disagree. Not only did piracy increase, they also burned a lot of money. Why would you want to repeat that? I also doubt CDR has the means to go after the bigger fishes here.If they'd offer the game for 5 bucks, it would be a no-brainer for many people to just buy the game instead of going through the hassle of illegal downloading. Of course that's way to cheap, but there's a sweetspot that attracts most customers while yielding the largest profit.

 

[Eri94_user70]

Where is your opinion and suggestion then? You seem to think that because piracy is wrong, you can't let them get away with it. But in reality there's nothing you can do about it. And hiring those law firms won't do any good other then wasting money on them.This is not about preventing piracy, but how to spend these ressources as meaningful as possible. I already suggested that not hiring these firms and instead lowering the retail price would've helped more. The money is gone either way but the later might have earned them more happy customers.

Exactly, do you seem to think that it is ok to get away with an action which is wrong?Wrong, there is people who have been caught for downloading, so clearly you can still do something. Although the result ain't that rewarding, by alteast catching some, will cause some people to avoid downloading it. TW 2 have a normal price, and 50€ isn't much. I would gladly pay more money if I knew they prevented (or atleast cared to caught) downloaders rather than having a decreased retail price. In fact it would be awesome to see some of them getting caught. Besides people doesn't even think in that way, either you buy it cause you want it or you don't, no matter if it's 50€ or 45€. People will more likely like/dislike a game based on it's contents and not if it's slightly cheaper.

Well, I totaly agree with you that theft is wrong and CDR has every right to prosecute as they see fit.If they'd offer the game for 5 bucks, it would be a no-brainer for many people to just buy the game instead of going through the hassle of illegal downloading. Of course that's way to cheap, but there's a sweetspot that attracts most customers while yielding the largest profit.

Even if the game would be for 5 bucks, people would still download it. It's not about if the price is low or high, it's about people who are to cheap to pay for things so they rather do an illegal way which they know have a low propability of getting caught. It's naive to believe if the games would get a lower price people would stop downloading. People aren't like that, they are cheap, lazy and want everything for free.It is a loss of revenue if people download, since it's not about if the product is good or bad but more about the fact that people live in the delusion that everything should be free. (atleast for them) If downloading would have a high chance of getting caught most people wouldn't dare to download it, thus buying a game they find promising. Which means for every person getting caught for downloading it is a small victory for gamedevelopers... And people who once have got caught, will most likely not be too fond to download and try his/her luck again.CDR knows that DRM doesn't do much but still want to try an alternative method to deal with the problem (as is their right). In my opinion this is only something positive. They respect the legal players by not forcing on them a DRM but still want to show a message that downloading isn't ok.Personally I find 50€ for a game to be cheap due to all the time you will spend on it (both regarding the first gameplay and any possible replay value). Alot of people can spend 20€ - 50€ on alchol for a weekend, which provides maybe 6 hours of enjoyment. I'm stating this fact, cause it takes months and months to release a game, are 50€ then really that much for people? It's not like we buy a video game every other day either.It's not about if it makes a difference or not. The probability of a rapist getting caught is low, wouldn't you still want them to atleast try to catch the criminal? We can't just start to look at everything as an economic factor, if we do, we neglect our responsibility to deal with crimes. Crimes should be punished, no matter if it is rewarding or not. Does a crime become justified just because it's a low chance getting caught and there is alot of costs? Guess I will inform the local police to forget about all rapists and criminals since it's just a waste of our tax money. (Someone should also inform US since they waste millions of peoples tax money in security measures, guns and war)Finally I find it real funny that alot of people are so conserned what CDR does with their income. If CDR starts to lose alot of money cause of lawyers they will learn their lesson by doing so. Not to mention the logic that some of you defend downloading (yes, you defend downloaders since you clearly doesn't want them to get caught, even with the current half arsed system they've got now in most games) by the only reason really that you want your games/movies/music free. It's an action that only benefit you and you only on the simple logic that you don't have to pay for it (a.k.a stealing). There is no political reson to defend it, no moral reason to defend it, not even a logical reason to defend it. It has nothing to do with freedom of rights, nothing to do with punishing the distributors for stealing money from the developers (as some use as a crappy argument) and nothing to do with whether it's an applicable or easy method.Ubisoft managed to sell equally many copies of AC 2 as AC 1. This with the extremely broken DRM system they've had. Clearly the majority still can leave the DRM issue behind themself and go ahead and buy the game. Ubisoft also managed to keep up the interest with forthcoming AC games, although they spend money in lawyers. Why can't you guys (and girls) just leave it be? It doesn't effect us in any way. Either you buy the game or you don't. (And even if you buy the game and it suck, you only have to pay once for it, hell you could even try to resale it to someone and get most of your money back that way)Yes, they could rather lower the retail price... But they choose to try and caught downloaders instead (which are atleast better than if they would just burn it on candy), that's their choice. Live with it.PS. What do you think is the odds they would actually read this topic? I suggest if you are so concerned to email Agnieszka Wasilewska. Heck, post your names and addresses and I can gladly send him a list of people who doesn't want CD Project to spend money in lawyers. (I really hope you do guys take that responsibility too, otherwise you do talk alot but don't act.)