Legalizing prostitution (article on my blog)

[Veleda.980]

That's a good point, dragonbird. I forgot to mention that most of the regulations in New Zealand are aimed at health and safety. Prostitutes certainly do not need to issue invoices.

In terms of consumer rights and anonymity, the clients are expected to look out for themselves (eg - research the women before hand, use a different cellphone for these purposes, use a fake name etc...). The government does not tax individual girls acting in private, only businesses such as massage parlors and brothels.


Some of you are indeed confusing legalization with over-regulation. One does not require the other.

That's closest to what I'm arguing for, and what I mean when I say it's a marginal activity and should stay marginal. There's no public benefit in it, so apart from minimal intervention to make sure the public doesn't suffer consequences of personal bad behavior, the public sphere should stay out of it. However I do wonder how your government sells the idea of having one area of commerce to which your tax laws don't apply. Must be a good gig if you can get it. That puts being a pimp on the same footing as the US government reserves for charities. LOL

edit- Or do you not have an income tax? That would solve that problem, I guess.

 

[SystemShock7]

You're not factoring in the increased cost in bureaucracy to provide oversight.

Why would you need more bureaucracy than what's already in place? Again, the idea is to decriminalize prostitution and make it to be like any other job, with oversight coming from already established law and govt. institutions.

 

[GuyNwah]

Also, this is only my personal opinion, but I do not think it should be illegal for a person to sell their personal time or companionship; as long as the person is in control of what activities occur and with whom they engage said activities.

I agree with that, but I believe it is irrelevant because it does not address prostitution as it actually is.

Prostitution is foremost a crime against children and the predictable outcome of other crimes against children. That's not just sensational examples. That's backed up by statistics. Legalization and regulation are good steps in the interest of social justice and public health, but they do not reach the causes and do nothing for the most miserable of its victims.

Those causes are nothing to do with commerce in sex between consenting adults, or how society may assure its safety and orderliness. The cause is a society that connives at rape, incest, and battery against children by refusing to prosecute the perpetrators and by ostracizing the victims, while also condemning families to such poverty or shame that selling their children into slavery is no longer something unthinkable.

So what do we do? These are diseases that have plagued society ever since there has been "society". Legalizing or regulating prostitution won't put an end to them, but neither will any other action that wiser minds than I have proposed. Whatever it is, I believe it has to start with affirming the dignity of every person without exception, and especially lifting up those who have been beaten down by society and fate. For we're a' Jock Tamson's bairns.

 

[username_3581677]

I think that Mexico actually would save a money if they would legalize drugs - seeing how much effort Mexico puts into war with drugs and how many victims there was.



I'm pretty sure that legal hard drugs wouldn't do any good for society or economy. Seeing how fast they make a wreckage out of people - people that aren't unable to work anymore and need constant medical care. And let's don't reduce it to talk about money, it ruins people life. Don't tell me "it's freedom of choice" - most of junks are young people. Young people that are still stupid and that can be easily convinced by friend and drug dealers that heroin or methamphetamine is nothing bad. It's not nicotine or booze that will destroy your organism and mind over years. It can destroy you in months. You don't have time to rethink your decision.



Yeah, but those people usually couldn't do anything about that. Elder can't stay young, mentally handicapped can't choose to be born normal etc.

I know quite a few long time users of opiates and they do just fine.......Heroin included. It really is a moderation thing. just like to much alcohol will kill you in one night. Smoking can kill you in one night too. House fires from sleep smoking Just saying it happens. Also The real handicapped people most;y work if they can. They want to be normal and so do normal things. I applaud them and the companies that hire them. In the US most of the ones who take disability could work at something. They are just to lazy. After all if you had no support from the government , I guarandamntee that they would do what they had to do to survive. It's to easy here.

I get this feeling you have a superiority complex thing going on. As in I do everything perfect......which I doubt very much so......In fact it seems to me those that preach those kind of values and idealism tend to have a few skeletons in the closet.....not saying you directly but your type. It all comes out in the end though....

 

[Oloroar]

Legalization and regulation are good steps in the interest of social justice and public health, but they do not reach the causes and do nothing for the most miserable of its victims.

I agree with you that legalizing prostitution does nothing for the crimes that lead people into prostitution. However, treating prostitutes like outcast criminals and actively hunting them down instead of trying to protect them from future wrong doing doesn't help their cause. Increasing their vulnerability to street crimes and STDs doesn't help their cause. Constantly victimizing and demeaning them in the media doesn't help their cause.

We don't know how to prevent the crimes that lead people into prostitution, as you said. Someday we may figure it out. Why not look out for the interests of prostitutes, social justice and public health in the meantime?

 

[dragonbird]

Those causes are nothing to do with commerce in sex between consenting adults, or how society may assure its safety and orderliness. The cause is a society that connives at rape, incest, and battery against children by refusing to prosecute the perpetrators and by ostracizing the victims, while also condemning families to such poverty or shame that selling their children into slavery is no longer something unthinkable.

This. Definitely this. I think that pretty much every country has laws against the pimps, the traffickers, the abusers, but as long as the victim - the prostitute - is also considered to be a criminal, enforcement against the real offenders is weakened. Legal and Enforcement effort should be directed against those who are really guilty of a crime (and that includes the john when the prostitute is a child or is abused). Political effort should be directed at stopping the reasons that this happens, at the cause and not the effect.

It is now illegal for prostitutes who work in the streets. Prostitution itself is not illegal. Yes pimping.

Country differences - where I grew up, it was legal for them to work the streets, but brothels were illegal.

Here, the buyer is as guilty as the prostitute and he is denounced too.

Better than nothing. At least it avoids the hypocrisy.

Not easy to translate, there's no the same meaning term in English. I'm not a versed in legal terminology, but I would say it is illegal which is against the law and unlawful/ lawless is not meet any legal standard, ie what works without being legally regulated. And therefore it is impossible to impute any crime.

OK, thanks. I think I understand now what you meant. And yes, it's different to the English-law definitions. (Illegal = criminal offense, unlawful = you're not allowed to do it, but it isn't necessarily a criminal offense).

 

[GuyNwah]

I agree with you that legalizing prostitution does nothing for the crimes that lead people into prostitution. However, treating prostitutes like outcast criminals and actively hunting them down instead of trying to protect them from future wrong doing doesn't help their cause. Increasing their vulnerability to street crimes and STDs doesn't help their cause. Constantly victimizing and demeaning them in the media doesn't help their cause.

We don't know how to prevent the crimes that lead people into prostitution, as you said. Someday we may figure it out. Why not look out for the interests of prostitutes, social justice and public health in the meantime?

I'm not denying the value of legalization and public health measures to protect prostitutes and drive exploiters out of the business. I believe this is important and desirable. Maybe I did not express myself well on that point. All I'm saying is that this is treating the symptoms, without also going after the cause of the disease. Both are appropriate. Legalization is a good approach to the former. I am not sure what can so readily be done for the latter.

 

[Oloroar]

That puts being a pimp on the same footing as the US government reserves for charities.

Pimps don't exist here. Ever since prostitution was decriminalized, most prostitutes either work in professional businesses such as brothels or privately. Prostitutes can now advertise themselves, they can seek protection from the law, and they have regulations that protect their health and safety. Pimps are powerless, they have no leverage against the prostitutes and the prostitutes have the means to fight back should they be abused.

Note that I am not saying that it has been abolished. I am sure it exists in some way or form, it's just not significant enough for the government to care about it.

I'm not denying the value of legalization and public health measures to protect prostitutes and drive exploiters out of the business. I believe this is important and desirable. Maybe I did not express myself well on that point. All I'm saying is that this is treating the symptoms, without also going after the cause of the disease. Both are appropriate. Legalization is a good approach to the former. I am not sure what can so readily be done for the latter.

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Like I said in my previous reply, I agree that this does nothing against the crimes that lead people to prostitution during later stages of their lives. The government certainly needs to continuously find ways of dealing with it though. They can't just legalize prostitution and call it a day, since it's only solving half the problem.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

They can't just legalize prostitution and call it a day, since it's only solving half the problem.

Not even half of it.
From what I researched, the problem with legalization in Europe is that they ended up decriminalizing not only the prostitutes, but the pimps themselves. So essentially everything remained the same, if not exacerbated.

When I wrote the article and did the research, I was under no illusion that legalizing it would deal with the root problems fully. It's primarily to alleviate the problem while more permanent solutions are enacted. However I do believe there is one aspect that legalization can do that hits at a root cause of human trafficking (at least of adults), and that's demand. I believe if properly applied, legalization would reduce the demand of the criminal sector, thus reduce human trafficking of adults for sex purposes.

Is it enough to remove it completely? No, but I believe it can put something of a dent on it.

 

[Veleda.980]

Pimps don't exist here. Ever since prostitution was decriminalized, most prostitutes either work in professional businesses such as brothels or privately. Prostitutes can now advertise themselves, they can seek protection from the law, and they have regulations that protect their health and safety. Pimps are powerless, they have no leverage against the prostitutes and the prostitutes have the means to fight back should they be abused.

Okay, but that wasn't my question, which was how your government designates one area of commerce as tax exempt. And if they work in "brothels," someone is managing those, so substitute "brothel manager" for pimp in my comment.

 

[Oloroar]

Okay, but that wasn't my question, which was how your government designates one area of commerce as tax exempt. And if they work in "brothels," someone is managing those, so substitute "brothel manager" for pimp in my comment.

Brothels, massage parlors and anything with a business name is NOT tax exempt. Only prostitutes working in private are tax exempt, which is no different than a garage sale.

 

[Veleda.980]

Brothels, massage parlors and anything with a business name is NOT tax exempt. Only prostitutes working in private are tax exempt, which is no different than a garage sale.

Okay... I was responding to your statement that prostitutes don't need to write invoices. LOL

 

[freakie1one]

Wealth and privilege will always make things better, but you don't see anything wrong with those sad sacks that are trying to buy something so integral to human life, which can be got through real relationships where they're expected to give something themselves other than their spare change?They should be free to do it if that's what they want, but I can't see it as anything but a pathetic exchange, even in those best-case scenarios.

Oh, I'm not saying those are my personal beliefs. I'm just saying that I can understand how some people might have a different perspective on the matter. A perfect example is one of my wealthy uncles. His favorite thing to quote is 'time is money'. He can't comprehend how I can "waste so much time playing games". I can understand why someone who views life in such a way would willingly pay for human companionship. It fits better into their perfect schedule. My perspective is people like that are missing out on a lot that life has to offer.

 

[freakie1one]

I agree with that, but I believe it is irrelevant because it does not address prostitution as it actually is.Prostitution is foremost a crime against children and the predictable outcome of other crimes against children. That's not just sensational examples. That's backed up by statistics.

Well, the relevance was tied to the decriminalization of prostitution not as an "end all, be all" solution, but like you implied: a step towards progress. It allows people to not fear legal repercussion for seeking help.

And that article was written with a somewhat sensational approach. Even the title "Prostitution is not a Choice" is guilty of this. I am not debating whether or not it discussed very real and serious problems; it most certainly did.

And, just as you, I do not know of a permanent or perfect "end all, be all" solution to this very complex problem. I agree that it would be a good start to try and better educate people about the issue(s) at hand. If people are made aware of--and acknowledge--just how serious these issues are then perhaps less people will simply look the other way and turn a blind eye.

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator)

As a rightist - I think that everything that concerns us should be legal. Prostitution, drugs. People should take responsibility for their own actions.

But in socialist systems which must be a whole bunch of prohibitions. The socialist system is like an old engine. It burns a lot of fuel and gives poor results, so the socialist country can not afford another expense.

What is the argument against drugs in leftist countries? "Who will finance the treatment of drug addicts."

The right wing has no such dilemma, because everyone pays for their own actions and decisions.

In a country with a right-wing system, everyone would have easy access to drugs, but at the same time everyone would be the only one to bear consequences for our their actions.

The whole of Europe is left-wing. There are so many rules, orders and prohibitions, a gigantic bureaucracy ... If allowed to one, then we will have to ban something else, because this system is not able to bear.

In many ways, communism in Poland gave more freedom than the current left-wing system in Europe.

Poles threw the yoke of communism, the left-wing system, created by people with cramped minds and went to the left-wing system, created by the crooks who rob the public of billions of euros. All with silly slogans.

Communism went bankrupt, the euro-socialism also go bankrupt.

Many Poles laughs that the EU is Euro-collective farm (Eurokołchoz). I do not know how to explain it in English.

 

[username_3588181]

And, just as you, I do not know of a permanent or perfect "end all, be all" solution to this very complex problem

Because there is none.

You guys need to stop seeing this as a public issue (public problem, public benefit). If someone’s decision to sell their bodies is a public problem , then it means his/her body is public property. Instead think of a more individual approach. Let’s say that there are 2 main groups of prostitutes :

a.) Those who are in the business willingly
b.) Those who are in the business against their will


b. Legalizing prostitution (LP) is going to put pimps out of business, however human traffickers (gangs, mafia) have a lot more resources. The only way to battle the latter is to cut their resources and LP will do just that. Alone it’s not enough, but couple that with legalizing drugs, less restrictive gun laws and a good law system and the problem will start to shrink drastically. People don’t go into businesses that don’t generate profits.

a. People in this group will only profit from LP (unless the taxes will force them to work illegally)*. All the benefits for this group were already discussed and I have nothing more to add.


*Taxes and the costs of work are tied to this whole process. If the costs of working legally will be too much to handle, people will be less inclined to step out of the grey market, where they will become easier prey for human traffickers.

However I do believe there is one aspect that legalization can do that hits at a root cause of human trafficking (at least of adults), and that's demand.

And you are right. Demand doesn’t disappear just because people are wishing that it would. If a legal alternative would be presented, consumers would shift their attention towards that market (but only if advantages would outweigh the disadvantages). According to Adam Smith :” When two individuals are going to sign a deal, the deal will only be signed if it will be profitable for both of them” (the book I’ve read it in was a polish translation so I’m paraphrasing here). And how profitable an exchange like that would be to the consumer is tied to taxes (see right above this paragraph), because taxes and regulations shape the price of the final product (not that it’s the only factor, but it’s the only one that matters to the argument).

 

[luc0s]

I live in The Netherlands where prostitution already is legalized for a long time (as far as I can remember it has always been legal in The Netherlands). It seems to be working out for us. There are still girls in our country who become victims of so-called "loverboys" and eventually end up in the human trafficking business, which is of course still illegal in The Netherlands. It is a pity that these things happen, but at least it happens much less in our country because of the legalized prostitution.

Because of the legalized prostitution the government can put heavy restrictions and rules on it and make sure that everything goes well for the girls in this business. The legal prostitution offers girls who want to work as a prostitute for whatever reason to do so in a safe and well-paid environment.

Legal prostitution reduces the amount of rape victims too. Horny men who are sexually frustrated can lose their frustration by going to a legal prostitute. The prostitute gets paid well, the frustrated man releases his sexual desires, everyone is happy and no girls are being raped.


Legal prostitution is certainly not perfect, but the benefits of it being legalized are irrefutable.

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator)

Maybe I'm blind, but I do not see my post. Has anyone removed it? Why?

My comment was on a topic that is discussed.

But I put it in a broader context. The socialist system will always be debate about legalizing, and outlaw.

99% of people are left-wing views. It does not matter whether people are religious or not, whether believers or not. They can not understand the concept of "freedom." Therefore censor speech other than the Left.

99% of Catholics have left-wing views. 99% of atheists have left-wing views. Arguing with each other about matters philosophical issues and what should be legal and what is illegal.

I know that everyone on this forum have left-wing views and can not stand such statements as mine.

Life is simple - you have the freedom - use of drugs, use the services of prostitutes. It's your life. And you pay for that life. Do not ask others to pay for the consequences of your pleasure. You're playing - pay.

Right: Freedom and Responsibility.
Left: Bans and shifting responsibility to others.

 

[wichat]

@nocny

Political systems are very different in every country.

In Spain Liberal is a capitalist. A conservacionist is a right-wing. And even, in the basic instinc, the right-wing is the heir of a dictator idealogy and military mind.

The left-wing are the most democrates, socialism mean welfare, and ecologism too...

I've seen that in English the senses of those terms could be absoluty the contrary, and I don't know how to translate your post without misunderstand it.

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator)

I do not know English. Unfortunately Google Translator is good, but only for simple expression.

I do not know how it is in Spain, but now in Poland, all political parties that are in parliament are left-wing.

Some parties, present leftist fundamentalism.

Others come from the communist structures.

Others come from the former Solidarity (Solidarność).

However, all are very similar. The only difference between them are matters of religion.

Some leftists creates its own identity around a hatred for religion. The second part of leftists creates its identity as defenders of religion.

And system? And the economy? And justice? For them it does not matter. European and global leftists extort billions of money to fight the natural climate changes. Only taxes and taxes. More and more bureaucracy, more resolutions and idiotic laws.

Very much at odds with each other, but it is obvious, because occupy the same niche in politics.

You ask me how it's related to the topic of legalization of prostitution.

This is important! In such a system, which is currently in Europe and in Poland, the legalization of anything associated with huge costs.

I'll say this:
In the current system, I do not want drugs and prostitution were legal.
In a system where everyone is responsible for their actions and decisions - I support that prostitution and drugs were legal.

Leftists want the criminals were punished very gently, and preferably not at all. A good example is the case Breivik. The murderer, who killed so many people get a prize from the Norwegian court - 21 years in the spa packages.

Is this justice? In a normal country, in normal times, Breivik would have been impaled on pole. That would be a correct punishment for someone like him.