Legends of Runeterra (Amazing new card game)

[Archan6el]

I really cant agree with this LoR needs to stay as far away from Gwent as possible. Balance in Gwent is horrible and the deck diversity is even worse. If you want decks with more consistency they are not hard to find. I love playing jinx discard because I can usually fly through cards to get to what I need.

The execution of balancing in Gwent may be horrible, but the idea behind it is good. I think deck diversity in LoR is larger because so many decks are "viable" simply because the large draw RNG reduces the win rate of even the strongest or most consistent decks. Some cards and mechanics are very obviously OP. Just because every region has cards like that doesn't make it balanced, but even more a gamble of card drawing.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

The execution of balancing in Gwent may be horrible, but the idea behind it is good. I think deck diversity in LoR is larger because so many decks are "viable" simply because the large draw RNG reduces the win rate of even the strongest or most consistent decks. Some cards and mechanics are very obviously OP. Just because every region has cards like that doesn't make it balanced, but even more a gamble of card drawing.

Well my personal opinion on this is that Gwent is too consistent which leads to very little diversity and matches playing out the same over and over again. LoR might have more draw RNG but it still has far more impactful choices to make throughout the match.

 

[Archan6el]

Well my personal opinion on this is that Gwent is too consistent which leads to very little diversity and matches playing out the same over and over again. LoR might have more draw RNG but it still has far more impactful choices to make throughout the match.

I don't think Gwent is too consistent. I think seeing the same over and over is because of a combination of:
- not enough cards that do different interesting things, new cards that do something similar but better (power creep)
- some bad balancing leading to a smaller pool of the strongest cards and mechanics that see most play
Gwent's consistency is great, but it is also a risk: Draw RNG does not reduce win rates that much if a deck is really strong and it does not provide that much variety of plays within the deck. Therefore the game needs to be really well balanced with a lot of diverse mechanics and interactions. I think there's the problem.

I fully agree that choices in LoR are more impactful. It's because of the basic mechanics of the game, the choices in battle to let your units survive, protect your nexus and be able to (counter) attack. I love that stuff, but the draw RNG combined with OP late game cards makes it too much of a card draw gambling game for me.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I don't think Gwent is too consistent. I think seeing the same over and over is because of a combination of:
- not enough cards that do different interesting things, new cards that do something similar but better (power creep)
- some bad balancing leading to a smaller pool of the strongest cards and mechanics that see most play
Gwent's consistency is great, but it is also a risk: Draw RNG does not reduce win rates that much if a deck is really strong and it does not provide that much variety of plays within the deck. Therefore the game needs to be really well balanced with a lot of diverse mechanics and interactions. I think there's the problem.

I fully agree that choices in LoR are more impactful. It's because of the basic mechanics of the game, the choices in battle to let your units survive, protect your nexus and be able to (counter) attack. I love that stuff, but the draw RNG combined with OP late game cards makes it too much of a card draw gambling game for me.

To each their own.

 

[4RM3D]

Gwent's consistency is great, but it is also a risk: Draw RNG does not reduce win rates that much if a deck is really strong and it does not provide that much variety of plays within the deck. Therefore the game needs to be really well balanced with a lot of diverse mechanics and interactions. I think there's the problem.

You kinda already said it, but let me put it more clearly. The more consistent the game, the more difficult it is too balance. LoR/HS/MtG already tries to balance the game with RNG, which works up to a point, but still not enough. Yet, Gwent's balance by RNG is minimal (and players still complain *cough* Bribery *cough*). We should be glad, except for the fact that CDPR cannot or does not want to balance the game. Instead, they tune a new deck every season and when that one goes overboard (which it does), CDPR nerfs it and puts another one in its place.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

You kinda already said it, but let me put it more clearly. The more consistent the game, the more difficult it is too balance. LoR/HS/MtG already tries to balance the game with RNG, which works up to a point, but still not enough. Yet, Gwent's balance by RNG is minimal (and players still complain *cough* Bribery *cough*). We should be glad, except for the fact that CDPR cannot or does not want to balance the game. Instead, they tune a new deck every season and when that one goes overboard (which it does), CDPR nerfs it and puts another one in its place.

This is strictly FALSE. It is very difficult to balance a card game through RNG, as will be shown in a mathematical example.

Proof:
Suppose that each faction has 2 cards that vary in power level, compared to other cards in the deck.

The table below denotes the power level of each card. As example, deck A, has 2 cards, that each play for 5 and 6 points respectively. While deck B has a weaker seperate value of each card, 3 and 4, the combined value is assumed to be 15.
Table below denotes probability of outcome of different events. As example the probability of both players drawing their cards is 25%.

A/B	5,6	5,0	6,0
3,4	25.00%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
3,0	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
0,4	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​

Hence under these assumptions, we can summarize the probabilities, and determine the average winrate for deck A and B.
These are

43.75%​	B
56.25%​	A

Now lets assume that developers decide to improve win rate of deck B by buffing the value of one of the cards.

A/B	5,6	5,0	6,0
3,5	25.00%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
5,0	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
0,3	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​

Hence in the scenario where both players draw 5,0 and 5,0 each have 50% chance of winning, or 4.68% respectively, which is the chance of winrate deck B has increased by.

The tricky part is that there are way more cards in the game, and with availability of tutors, the math of determining these probabilities is way harder than any of us is capable to immagine, or put into a mathematical model.

Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards, and that their power level is equivalent in terms of points. Even then, the game wouldn't be balanced as tech options are a thing, and some decks are more susceptible to techs than others.

Please stop spreading false rumors that this game needs to be balanced through RNG. The likelyhood of achieving this is small compared to removing RNG entirely.

 

[4RM3D]

Please stop spreading false rumors that this game needs to be balanced through RNG. The likelyhood of achieving this is small compared to removing RNG entirely.

First of all, I never said that the game needs to be balanced through RNG. I just pointed out that it's easier to do so. However, I (and many others) do not like the RNG fiesta that Hearthstone brings.

This is strictly FALSE. It is very difficult to balance a card game through RNG, as will be shown in a mathematical example.

You put a simplified mathematical model that covers one usage out of a thousand. That doesn't prove your point because it doesn't show if and how it applies to other cases; draw RNG being the biggest one (for "normal" CCG, at least). So, no, my point is not strictly false. You'll have to do better than that, first.

Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards, and that their power level is equivalent in terms of points. Even then, the game wouldn't be balanced as tech options are a thing, and some decks are more susceptible to techs than others.

LoR has some sick combos that, if could be reliably pulled, would break the balance. The RNG saves LoR from properly balancing the game. Except that it's by design. LoR matches are usually a ticking time-bomb waiting to go off. The only question is only on whose side.

Anyhow, let's examine your quote: "Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards [...]". Hypothetically speaking, if you know that a every deck will draw all its cards, then you have reliable information on which to act, instead of whether a player might draw this or that. So, you could say the method is more reliable. However, at the same time, you'll have to put more effort into actually balancing the cards. LoR once again being a prime example of this.

Fancy mathematics isn't going to save you here.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Anyhow, let's examine your quote: "Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards [...]". Hypothetically speaking, if you know that a every deck will draw all its cards, then you have reliable information on which to act, instead of whether a player might draw this or that. So, you could say the method is more reliable. However, at the same time, you'll have to put more effort into actually balancing the cards. LoR once again being a prime example of this.

Hmm, I see, so with both players drawing their cards, the cards need to be perfectly balanced, otherwise one of the players, with the 'best cards' will always win. I didn't see it in that light before.
This actually changed my mind entirely. Yeah, so even if perfect balance is never achieved when the game is balanced through RNG, it may in some games be the best option to balance cards, due to the input of effort.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Yes I can agree here. I was new to card games with Gwrnt but I always knew that they absolutely had to carefully balance the cards and update them regularly. The consistency of the games made this even more obvious. If one player just has stronger cards then they have a huge advantage and to keep the game interesting players need lots of interesting choices. Without good balancing you just see a few tier 1 decks and nothing else. I had to leave when that just never changed. LoR's craziness is fine with me because at least I can play what I like and be successful enough.

 

[Archan6el]

Hmm, I see, so with both players drawing their cards, the cards need to be perfectly balanced, otherwise one of the players, with the 'best cards' will always win. I didn't see it in that light before.
This actually changed my mind entirely. Yeah, so even if perfect balance is never achieved when the game is balanced through RNG, it may in some games be the best option to balance cards, due to the input of effort.

If both players would draw all their cards, the deciding factors would be the strength of the cards/deck and the skill of the player. To allow winning based on skill (as Gwent is advertised), all cards/decks need to be well balanced to have variety and a skill-based game. That's the difficulty and the problem.
Balancing through RNG is horrible. You may have created a very strong deck and play perfectly, but still lose to a weaker deck and/or player due to RNG. RNG reduces the winrate of the strongest decks, allowing devs to refer to winrates and say that balancing is ok. It's a lie that gives the finger to you and your skill.

Yes I can agree here. I was new to card games with Gwrnt but I always knew that they absolutely had to carefully balance the cards and update them regularly. The consistency of the games made this even more obvious. If one player just has stronger cards then they have a huge advantage and to keep the game interesting players need lots of interesting choices. Without good balancing you just see a few tier 1 decks and nothing else. I had to leave when that just never changed. LoR's craziness is fine with me because at least I can play what I like and be successful enough.

This is also why I left and tried LoR. LoR is fun, but the draw RNG combined with unbalanced (finisher) cards is just putting me off more and more.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

If both players would draw all their cards, the deciding factors would be the strength of the cards/deck and the skill of the player. To allow winning based on skill (as Gwent is advertised), all cards/decks need to be well balanced to have variety and a skill-based game. That's the difficulty and the problem.
Balancing through RNG is horrible. You may have created a very strong deck and play perfectly, but still lose to a weaker deck and/or player due to RNG. RNG reduces the winrate of the strongest decks, allowing devs to refer to winrates and say that balancing is ok. It's a lie that gives the finger to you and your skill.

This is also why I left and tried LoR. LoR is fun, but the draw RNG combined with unbalanced (finisher) cards is just putting me off more and more.

I just try to look at it that the game is supposed to end around turn 10 so cards in that area are supposed to be very strong.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Oh yeah. This is going to be fun.