Legends of Runeterra (Amazing new card game)

[Archan6el]

I really cant agree with this LoR needs to stay as far away from Gwent as possible. Balance in Gwent is horrible and the deck diversity is even worse. If you want decks with more consistency they are not hard to find. I love playing jinx discard because I can usually fly through cards to get to what I need.

The execution of balancing in Gwent may be horrible, but the idea behind it is good. I think deck diversity in LoR is larger because so many decks are "viable" simply because the large draw RNG reduces the win rate of even the strongest or most consistent decks. Some cards and mechanics are very obviously OP. Just because every region has cards like that doesn't make it balanced, but even more a gamble of card drawing.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

The execution of balancing in Gwent may be horrible, but the idea behind it is good. I think deck diversity in LoR is larger because so many decks are "viable" simply because the large draw RNG reduces the win rate of even the strongest or most consistent decks. Some cards and mechanics are very obviously OP. Just because every region has cards like that doesn't make it balanced, but even more a gamble of card drawing.

Well my personal opinion on this is that Gwent is too consistent which leads to very little diversity and matches playing out the same over and over again. LoR might have more draw RNG but it still has far more impactful choices to make throughout the match.

 

[Archan6el]

Well my personal opinion on this is that Gwent is too consistent which leads to very little diversity and matches playing out the same over and over again. LoR might have more draw RNG but it still has far more impactful choices to make throughout the match.

I don't think Gwent is too consistent. I think seeing the same over and over is because of a combination of:
- not enough cards that do different interesting things, new cards that do something similar but better (power creep)
- some bad balancing leading to a smaller pool of the strongest cards and mechanics that see most play
Gwent's consistency is great, but it is also a risk: Draw RNG does not reduce win rates that much if a deck is really strong and it does not provide that much variety of plays within the deck. Therefore the game needs to be really well balanced with a lot of diverse mechanics and interactions. I think there's the problem.

I fully agree that choices in LoR are more impactful. It's because of the basic mechanics of the game, the choices in battle to let your units survive, protect your nexus and be able to (counter) attack. I love that stuff, but the draw RNG combined with OP late game cards makes it too much of a card draw gambling game for me.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

I don't think Gwent is too consistent. I think seeing the same over and over is because of a combination of:
- not enough cards that do different interesting things, new cards that do something similar but better (power creep)
- some bad balancing leading to a smaller pool of the strongest cards and mechanics that see most play
Gwent's consistency is great, but it is also a risk: Draw RNG does not reduce win rates that much if a deck is really strong and it does not provide that much variety of plays within the deck. Therefore the game needs to be really well balanced with a lot of diverse mechanics and interactions. I think there's the problem.

I fully agree that choices in LoR are more impactful. It's because of the basic mechanics of the game, the choices in battle to let your units survive, protect your nexus and be able to (counter) attack. I love that stuff, but the draw RNG combined with OP late game cards makes it too much of a card draw gambling game for me.

To each their own.

 

[4RM3D]

Gwent's consistency is great, but it is also a risk: Draw RNG does not reduce win rates that much if a deck is really strong and it does not provide that much variety of plays within the deck. Therefore the game needs to be really well balanced with a lot of diverse mechanics and interactions. I think there's the problem.

You kinda already said it, but let me put it more clearly. The more consistent the game, the more difficult it is too balance. LoR/HS/MtG already tries to balance the game with RNG, which works up to a point, but still not enough. Yet, Gwent's balance by RNG is minimal (and players still complain *cough* Bribery *cough*). We should be glad, except for the fact that CDPR cannot or does not want to balance the game. Instead, they tune a new deck every season and when that one goes overboard (which it does), CDPR nerfs it and puts another one in its place.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

You kinda already said it, but let me put it more clearly. The more consistent the game, the more difficult it is too balance. LoR/HS/MtG already tries to balance the game with RNG, which works up to a point, but still not enough. Yet, Gwent's balance by RNG is minimal (and players still complain *cough* Bribery *cough*). We should be glad, except for the fact that CDPR cannot or does not want to balance the game. Instead, they tune a new deck every season and when that one goes overboard (which it does), CDPR nerfs it and puts another one in its place.

This is strictly FALSE. It is very difficult to balance a card game through RNG, as will be shown in a mathematical example.

Proof:
Suppose that each faction has 2 cards that vary in power level, compared to other cards in the deck.

The table below denotes the power level of each card. As example, deck A, has 2 cards, that each play for 5 and 6 points respectively. While deck B has a weaker seperate value of each card, 3 and 4, the combined value is assumed to be 15.
Table below denotes probability of outcome of different events. As example the probability of both players drawing their cards is 25%.

A/B	5,6	5,0	6,0
3,4	25.00%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
3,0	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
0,4	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​

Hence under these assumptions, we can summarize the probabilities, and determine the average winrate for deck A and B.
These are

43.75%​	B
56.25%​	A

Now lets assume that developers decide to improve win rate of deck B by buffing the value of one of the cards.

A/B	5,6	5,0	6,0
3,5	25.00%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
5,0	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​
0,3	9.38%​	9.38%​	9.38%​

Hence in the scenario where both players draw 5,0 and 5,0 each have 50% chance of winning, or 4.68% respectively, which is the chance of winrate deck B has increased by.

The tricky part is that there are way more cards in the game, and with availability of tutors, the math of determining these probabilities is way harder than any of us is capable to immagine, or put into a mathematical model.

Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards, and that their power level is equivalent in terms of points. Even then, the game wouldn't be balanced as tech options are a thing, and some decks are more susceptible to techs than others.

Please stop spreading false rumors that this game needs to be balanced through RNG. The likelyhood of achieving this is small compared to removing RNG entirely.

 

[4RM3D]

Please stop spreading false rumors that this game needs to be balanced through RNG. The likelyhood of achieving this is small compared to removing RNG entirely.

First of all, I never said that the game needs to be balanced through RNG. I just pointed out that it's easier to do so. However, I (and many others) do not like the RNG fiesta that Hearthstone brings.

This is strictly FALSE. It is very difficult to balance a card game through RNG, as will be shown in a mathematical example.

You put a simplified mathematical model that covers one usage out of a thousand. That doesn't prove your point because it doesn't show if and how it applies to other cases; draw RNG being the biggest one (for "normal" CCG, at least). So, no, my point is not strictly false. You'll have to do better than that, first.

Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards, and that their power level is equivalent in terms of points. Even then, the game wouldn't be balanced as tech options are a thing, and some decks are more susceptible to techs than others.

LoR has some sick combos that, if could be reliably pulled, would break the balance. The RNG saves LoR from properly balancing the game. Except that it's by design. LoR matches are usually a ticking time-bomb waiting to go off. The only question is only on whose side.

Anyhow, let's examine your quote: "Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards [...]". Hypothetically speaking, if you know that a every deck will draw all its cards, then you have reliable information on which to act, instead of whether a player might draw this or that. So, you could say the method is more reliable. However, at the same time, you'll have to put more effort into actually balancing the cards. LoR once again being a prime example of this.

Fancy mathematics isn't going to save you here.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Anyhow, let's examine your quote: "Thus the most reliable method to balance is when both players draw their cards [...]". Hypothetically speaking, if you know that a every deck will draw all its cards, then you have reliable information on which to act, instead of whether a player might draw this or that. So, you could say the method is more reliable. However, at the same time, you'll have to put more effort into actually balancing the cards. LoR once again being a prime example of this.

Hmm, I see, so with both players drawing their cards, the cards need to be perfectly balanced, otherwise one of the players, with the 'best cards' will always win. I didn't see it in that light before.
This actually changed my mind entirely. Yeah, so even if perfect balance is never achieved when the game is balanced through RNG, it may in some games be the best option to balance cards, due to the input of effort.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Yes I can agree here. I was new to card games with Gwrnt but I always knew that they absolutely had to carefully balance the cards and update them regularly. The consistency of the games made this even more obvious. If one player just has stronger cards then they have a huge advantage and to keep the game interesting players need lots of interesting choices. Without good balancing you just see a few tier 1 decks and nothing else. I had to leave when that just never changed. LoR's craziness is fine with me because at least I can play what I like and be successful enough.

 

[Archan6el]

Hmm, I see, so with both players drawing their cards, the cards need to be perfectly balanced, otherwise one of the players, with the 'best cards' will always win. I didn't see it in that light before.
This actually changed my mind entirely. Yeah, so even if perfect balance is never achieved when the game is balanced through RNG, it may in some games be the best option to balance cards, due to the input of effort.

If both players would draw all their cards, the deciding factors would be the strength of the cards/deck and the skill of the player. To allow winning based on skill (as Gwent is advertised), all cards/decks need to be well balanced to have variety and a skill-based game. That's the difficulty and the problem.
Balancing through RNG is horrible. You may have created a very strong deck and play perfectly, but still lose to a weaker deck and/or player due to RNG. RNG reduces the winrate of the strongest decks, allowing devs to refer to winrates and say that balancing is ok. It's a lie that gives the finger to you and your skill.

Yes I can agree here. I was new to card games with Gwrnt but I always knew that they absolutely had to carefully balance the cards and update them regularly. The consistency of the games made this even more obvious. If one player just has stronger cards then they have a huge advantage and to keep the game interesting players need lots of interesting choices. Without good balancing you just see a few tier 1 decks and nothing else. I had to leave when that just never changed. LoR's craziness is fine with me because at least I can play what I like and be successful enough.

This is also why I left and tried LoR. LoR is fun, but the draw RNG combined with unbalanced (finisher) cards is just putting me off more and more.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

If both players would draw all their cards, the deciding factors would be the strength of the cards/deck and the skill of the player. To allow winning based on skill (as Gwent is advertised), all cards/decks need to be well balanced to have variety and a skill-based game. That's the difficulty and the problem.
Balancing through RNG is horrible. You may have created a very strong deck and play perfectly, but still lose to a weaker deck and/or player due to RNG. RNG reduces the winrate of the strongest decks, allowing devs to refer to winrates and say that balancing is ok. It's a lie that gives the finger to you and your skill.

This is also why I left and tried LoR. LoR is fun, but the draw RNG combined with unbalanced (finisher) cards is just putting me off more and more.

I just try to look at it that the game is supposed to end around turn 10 so cards in that area are supposed to be very strong.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Oh yeah. This is going to be fun.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Update.

The game has never been better than now. Tons of interesting modes to play. Ways to enter tournaments. Insane deck variety.

If you need help let me know. Friend matches are easy and there is even a spectator mode. You can watch me crush some people.

 

[Messyr]

Update.

The game has never been better than now. Tons of interesting modes to play. Ways to enter tournaments. Insane deck variety.

If you need help let me know. Friend matches are easy and there is even a spectator mode. You can watch me crush some people.

An honest question: are you on paid duty with this advertising mate?

All jokes aside, every 2-3 months you appear, saying a few negative things about Gwent in several topics (usually without much actual context) and present Runaterra as the next savior of CCGs.

Don't get me wrong, the game is fine, surely a solid option for one who is looking for a fun alternative to HS, Magic or Gwent for example - simply the bipolar tone of these posts is what makes me wonder.

 

[cardgame-respecter]

The game has never been better than now.

Any christmas event in the game? Just wondering.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Any christmas event in the game? Just wondering.

No. They just released new cards completing the most recent expansion.

Post automatically merged: Dec 24, 2020

An honest question: are you on paid duty with this advertising mate?

All jokes aside, every 2-3 months you appear, saying a few negative things about Gwent in several topics (usually without much actual context) and present Runaterra as the next savior of CCGs.

Don't get me wrong, the game is fine, surely a solid option for one who is looking for a fun alternative to HS, Magic or Gwent for example - simply the bipolar tone of these posts is what makes me wonder.

I played and posted about Gwent for years so my context is in all of those posts if you want to go through them. I come back because I posted here for a very long time and old habits die hard. I made the legends of Runeterra thread so I like to keep it alive in case someone is interested. I play LoR daily so I have plenty that I can say about it. I wish they would pay me lol. If I was paid I certainly wouldn't care to post here. This forum has felt dead ever since they added create.

 

[duracell1955]

Could anyone who's played Runeterra please advise me on a couple of matters which I'd like to know before I consider playing it.

1. Complexity. I came to Gwent from Witcher 3, I'd never played an online card game before and I found the number of different cards (almost 400 in the base set) and number of different mechanics challenging. That was a couple of years ago since when Gwent has become more complex with each expansion and the now huge number of cards and mechanics. A younger mind than mine would probably thrive on this but my win rate has gone down with every expansion and now it's pretty poor. I'd like to play a game with fewer cards and mechanics.

2. Matchmaking. I don't rate the Gwent matchmaking system very highly. If it was efficient it would constantly match me against a person of similar ability, such that my win rate should usually hover around the 50% mark. This doesn't happen and as I already said, my win rate keeps going down. I'd welcome feedback from Runeterra players on their experiences.

Thank you.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

Could anyone who's played Runeterra please advise me on a couple of matters which I'd like to know before I consider playing it.

1. Complexity. I came to Gwent from Witcher 3, I'd never played an online card game before and I found the number of different cards (almost 400 in the base set) and number of different mechanics challenging. That was a couple of years ago since when Gwent has become more complex with each expansion and the now huge number of cards and mechanics. A younger mind than mine would probably thrive on this but my win rate has gone down with every expansion and now it's pretty poor. I'd like to play a game with fewer cards and mechanics.

2. Matchmaking. I don't rate the Gwent matchmaking system very highly. If it was efficient it would constantly match me against a person of similar ability, such that my win rate should usually hover around the 50% mark. This doesn't happen and as I already said, my win rate keeps going down. I'd welcome feedback from Runeterra players on their experiences.

Thank you.

In regards to matchmaking I think LoR is better than Gwents and more importantly you will run into many different decks instead of the same few over and over.

Complexity wise I don't know if you will find this game more complex than Gwent or not. I would encourage you to simply play through the tutorial and against the AI until you feel comfortable.

 

[Raziel_888]

In my opinion, LoR is more complex than Gwent and has more mechanics. But they also have individual tutorials for each of them. They also have floating tool tips when hovering over a card which can help a lot.
Also, if a player ever played Magic, which is still the base for most game cards, A LOT of them (at least the original ones) are the same, which makes getting into it easier.

Burst spells are Split Second Ephemeral, Fast spells are Ephemeral, Slow spells are Rituals. Followers are Creatures. Landmarks are Enchantments.

Quick and Double Attack are Initiative and Double Initiative
Overwhelm is Trample
Elusive is Flight
Fearsome is, well, Fear
Spellshield is Hexproof (less broken)
Lifesteal - Lifelink
Obliterate - Exile
Challenger - Provoke

Note 1: this doesn't mean that the game is the same as Magic. There are some differences. I like to see LoR as a mix of Magic and Hearthstone, so far not falling into the traps of either.

Note 2: my post is completely useless if you haven't played Magic -_-

 

[Raziel_888]

I like the game but please adjust some cards.
-The Grand Plaza is way too strong for the cost. The cost should be at least 5-6, or the effect should be only +1/+1 without challenger. I believe this is the strongest card in the game right now.
-Aurelion Sol should not count himself for the level up condition. Close second to Grand Plaza as the strongest card in the game, although this one costs 10
-The Fountain/Soraka/Tahm Kench 2-3-4 curve is too strong. This deck renders all damage useless as it has sooo many heal/boost. The fountain's win condition could be removed and it would still be good
-Vladimir: make its effect on the units on the left, not the right, so you can level him up in combat
-I still think Deep should trigger at 10 cards. Maokai should also be adjusted in expedition (like the catastrophe one)
-The KDA spells, appart from Go Get It (fine) and Out Of The Way (can be strong but need the right draw), can be abused. I'm not as allergic to Go Hard as other people, but still think that if the target of the spell is removed, the copy effect and cast count should not trigger. Give It All should last one round. Feel The Rush is super expensive, but in ramp decks with Aurelion Sol or elusive champions, it gets ridiculous.