Lessons from Witcher 3

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If the game's about saving yourself rather than the world, I think side content unrelated to the main story makes a lot more sense since you'd most likely be taking jobs in return for payment rather than helping random strangers out of the kindness of your heart. Too many tie-ins could come across game-ish, like the main character's life stuff is the only thing happening in the world.

I was thinking more along the lines of if you're "saving yourself", what ever that might mean, most of your doings is going to count for that either directly or indirectly; and while the world doesn't care about you saving yourself (it's not like there's not a multiple similiar dudes running around on the same sort of business), it does react to what you do and on whose shoes you piss on, and from there it affects your means and chances to achieving your personal goals. The more you get involved with the world, the more it gets involved with you through the relevant parties. That kind of stuff.
 
Lessons from Witcher 3:

1) NEVER ever pre-order games anymore from any studio, particularly from CDPR.
2) Do NOT buy into the hype surrounding the game.
3) Do NOT have any expectations of the game whatsoever unless you want them utterly ruined. This way you might also be pleasantly surprised.
4) Do NOT think trailers and even ACTUAL GAMEPLAY footage are indicative in any way, shape or form of the final game. These footage materials are just marketing means to raise the hype.
5) Do NOT read interview with developers, those are also NOT indicative of how the game would turn out to be on release date.
6) CDPR marketing team should get a fricking heap of marketing Oscars for their job and a salary increase. Superb job, guys.
 
Note: I would appreciate the increase of images per post to be something like max 30 (instead of 5, feels very limited especially for fan art posts)

Learning from the Witcher 3:

+Witcher 3 had an excellent depth in story and its world was immersive due to the extensive attention to story-telling (dialogues, dialects, events, lore, choices etc). I really want to see that in C77 too, even if there is more than one main protagonist that you can choose from.


+Contracts were a fascinating part of W3. I would like to see similar things in C77 (equivalent of "cases" in a modern setting). The reason why contracts were fascinating was:
1) You didnt know what to expect, sometimes you would encounter a monster never seen before.

2) Your bestiary felt like a Pokedex; the more monsters you slew, the more you would feel proud about it (+the nice and organised categories added to the experience).


For C77 I would expect a "bestiary" to instead list either Factions (based on clan or location), or categorization based on case (if we are talking about cyber-psychosis, I would expect something like a cyberpsychologist's diagnosis, modified to express the differences between levels of danger, severity of psychosis, strengths/weaknesses and lastly intel known. Categorization indicates the "power level" (in anime terms), which makes things more interesting imo. A nice example I can think of is whether the case is an exotic (if you don't what that means, its mainly fashion-ware that makes you look non-human).

+The world that felt expansive and you couldn't see where the edges of the map were. Also (even if it was a bit rare in W3) the satisfaction when unlocking a new area that you can travel to. I would like to see this on C77 in a similar format, with the addition of a planet view (3 levels of zoom would be preferable: planet - region -local map). The Net can also have its own map with a similar format.



+Fast travel is needed given the size of W3 (and most likely be needed in C77 too). A thing to note here is that a successful city is a city where the players don't want to use fast -travel, but instead walk/drive at their own pace and explore in the meantime (details below).



+W3 locations felt alive. NPCs did various everyday animations (working, sitting, talking, guarding etc.). They also spoke or mumble as you passed through, while various other sounds filled the atmosphere and made it more vivid and colorful. Going the next step, I would expect more player interaction with its surroundings, like sitting wherever, buying a soda from a vending machine, checking your balance in an ATM, speak with a local for a random subject, be asked by various NPCs things that you have to answer, checking and buying magazines from a store, buying various other items that have various uses (for example aromas, batteries, candles, clothes, eye contacts, audio players, etc.), physically interacting with containers or various objects (like newspaper boxes, doors, windows, car doors, car trucks if any, sewage caps, pump valves, food, drinks etc.)

+W3 had a UI menu where you could see the inside of containers as UI elements. For C77, I would actually prefer the Dying Light approach where you could actually see the physical mesh of the pickup contained inside whatever you open, and grabbing it shows your character reaching out for it (easier to add investigation options ala LA Noire with this approach).

+Intimidating enemies and villains. One of the biggest pluses of W3 for me was the awe when you first saw the Wild Hunt and how intimidating they looked. Their armor sfx, their animations, the camera work, the unnatural sounds of their actions that fit perfectly into the mood (like Corentheus hitting his staff in the ground after being impressed by Eskel's strength in the battle of Kaer Morhen. I want to feel the same when I meet the bad guys in C77, or even better feel intimidated by my surroundings knowing the dangers of such a setting. Awe and intimidation.

+Variety in environments. Now I know realism is a great deal that sometimes goes against the variety of environments and settings, but I really want to see more variety in C77 than W3. It would be cool to see a clear distinction of a location based on its history, fame and its type (combat-zone, luxury street, corporate square, slums, cheap market, expensive market, nature, outlaw streets, industrial, abandoned industrial, abandoned residential, post-nuclear patch-work architecture, old vs new patch-work architecture, class-oriented areas etc.).

+Skill progress was something I enjoyed in W3, but I feel a different system is needed for C77 as there are more skills to be explored this time around (C2020 is based on skills and not leveling anyway). So no skill levels, just variety in skills. Also, skill growth should be 3 times slower compared to W3, even if there are more in C77. The reason for that is that you can easily get OP and things will start to look easy and dull (if we had the skill generation of W3 into the C20 model). If you slow the progress of skill gain, you allow class-focus and considerable strategy when selecting the way to progress. Also, hard choices have to be made more often, and you make skill gain a considerate milestone that will make a difference and basically matter. On the other hand, be careful of the random evolution effect. If skills are needed completely random (like dialogue etiquettes in Shadowrun), a player will be confused when selecting a new skill, and he will feel bad if he constantly bumps situations where other skills are needed. You need to have him feel good about his choices, no matter what path he takes. I would assume that you also know that the Fallout 4 skill tree is a bad system which limits your skill growth based on leveling and takes away from role playing.

+Game difficulty for the W3 was just enough for me to enjoy winning and losing, although I found it generally simple. Regarding C77, I would keep the same level of difficulty but raise the difficulty on the complexity of achieving things. For example, in W3 you can beat a monster simply by hitting it multiple times, using spells, using poisons and other combat enhancements. However, none of the previous matter if you are simply adept in combat and you know how to skillfully beat opponents using dodge/parry (not counting exceptions). For C77, I would prefer a more strategic approach on defeating foes that is based on a multitude of factors, or simply things that you have to spot during combat (something like MGS series boss battles or the earlier iterations of the Witcher series). That doesn't mean to make the enemies harder, just smarter to beat.

+Boosts. W3 had potions, grindstones, mutagens etc. C77 will need something similar in from of consumables, augmentations, accessories, clothing boosts and various conditions (positive and negative). I would really like an extended focus on conditions in fact, with various things that resemble actual human conditions (like stomach ache, dizziness, drunkenness, deprivation from substances, moods, and conditions based on your empathy level).

+Crafting. Not sure if C77 will need crafting as in W3. It could either be a class thing (techie), or be out completely. I think focus on other mechanics would be more crucial, as realistically you can't craft an item from getting various wires, chips and scrap metal. What I would like to see instead would be specific operations that would require very specific resources to do, like medical surgery (actual surgery, not a progress bar), or electronic repair/ maintenance, electronic upgrade, augmentation surgery, drone and vehicle upgrade and maintenance, and lastly net-running.

+Collections. Personally I feel collections may change a game from "just fun until you beat the main story" to "post-endgame fun", but they have to be done right. W3 did a great amount of work on making its collections feel unique and meaningful. Bestiary was useful for intel gathering, Gwent card collection was useful for beating harder opponents and monster relics were "okay" given their stat boosts (since a system like that existed, I expected more variety but I can't say I was let down either). For C77, if a safe-house exists, make sure to allow the player to fill it with his memories of his experience: display cases, wall mounts, furniture, things he can buy to further enhance his role-playing. That also falls for anything the player has as his own, from the player appearance, to his guns, to his vehicles and weapons.

I could expand more, but I think my crucial points are already expressed. For reference, here is an extensive and descriptive review of Witcher 3, I used it to form this list.

Video is extremely long btw, I suggest you skip to story part (its a bit descriptive before that).
 

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Note: I would appreciate the increase of images per post to be something like max 30 (instead of 5, feels very limited especially for fan art posts)

I'm sure. Keep in mind, not everyone is on a PC - mobile customers are also served. So, unless your post is in the Fan Art subforum, if you could Spoiler tag your images in a big post like this, that would be great. Makes it a lot easier for anyone not on a big screen to read.


I found the difficulty on Death March to be just fine for W3, but I became unkillable around level 25.

Cyberpunk doesn't -use- levels, but I still want to make sure I'm never unkillable.

Skills in CP2020 are also less video-game-ey and more the ability to do things better. No one is suddenly capable of dual-wielding because they hit Skill Level 6, they just take penalties to do it unless ambidextrous or specifically trained, for example.

No idea if the skills in CP2077 will follow that pattern, or be more "super-powers' based such as we generally see now.
 
I'm really hoping against "super powers".
In general RPGs are about gradual increases in abilities rather the sudden "I win" stuff.
 
I'm really hoping against "super powers".
In general RPGs are about gradual increases in abilities rather the sudden "I win" stuff.

Well, until a certain point, then it's all "Power Word Kill" and four attacks a round or whatever. There is that late-level arc.


Whiiiiich Cyberpunk 2020 sort-of has, but it has as much to do with accumulation of real-world resources and learned skills as it does some silly magical "level".

If you survive, you deserve a lot of that.
 
Well, until a certain point, then it's all "Power Word Kill" and four attacks a round or whatever. There is that late-level arc.

Whiiiiich Cyberpunk 2020 sort-of has, but it has as much to do with accumulation of real-world resources and learned skills as it does some silly magical "level".

If you survive, you deserve a lot of that.
Yeah but that's cumulative increases not the usual "At lev 12 you gain ability X which allows you to pretty much auto succeed vs anything but "Boss" MOBs who are of course immune."
 
I'm sure. Keep in mind, not everyone is on a PC - mobile customers are also served. So, unless your post is in the Fan Art subforum, if you could Spoiler tag your images in a big post like this, that would be great. Makes it a lot easier for anyone not on a big screen to read.

Agreed. It just feels more interactive with images (without spoiler tabs) and bandwidth usage is not a big deal unless its higher than 5mb. The site allows a max of 5 attachments, even if its just URL links (which shouldn't be counted as attachments given they are taken from another domain). I used low-res images for the most part anyway, so I don't think mobiles are taking a hit on this one, but I get the point.


I found the difficulty on Death March to be just fine for W3, but I became unkillable around level 25.
It was fun though. Combat may seemed simple, but required player skill and was enjoyable.

Cyberpunk doesn't -use- levels, but I still want to make sure I'm never unkillable.

Skills in CP2020 are also less video-game-ey and more the ability to do things better. No one is suddenly capable of dual-wielding because they hit Skill Level 6, they just take penalties to do it unless ambidextrous or specifically trained, for example.

No idea if the skills in CP2077 will follow that pattern, or be more "super-powers' based such as we generally see now.


It's true that video-games tend to focus on combat nowadays. Vast majority of players like to shoot and slash things rather than exploring and having interactions, so the game has to have a bit of everything or it will be a niche product (if it was up to me I wouldn't care about pleasing all crowds, just saying how things work with AAA development) . But let's focus on the non-combat: things like calming down an key individual who thinks he is danger because you are carrying a gun (alternatively intimidate or kill), interrogating tough-looking opponents for information, using appearance-coolness-seduction to get info from the opposite sex (or joining a fashion group). A universe based on those non-combat activities will still make the game enjoyable for people who like a fresh experience. CDPR understands these concepts more than any other AAA developer, given its work on the W3 and not being influenced by a publisher, so I have faith in them.
 
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CDPR understands these concepts more than any other AAA developer, given its work on the W3 and not being influenced by a publisher, so I have faith in them.
I think many of the "big name" developers understand, they're just at the mercy of producers or boards/investors who frankly don't give a damn about product quality only profits. Or think they'll sell whatever they damn well please and the customer has no choice but to buy ... ask Detroit how well that works in the long run.
 
I think many of the "big name" developers understand, they're just at the mercy of producers or boards/investors who frankly don't give a damn about product quality only profits. Or think they'll sell whatever they damn well please and the customer has no choice but to buy ... ask Detroit how well that works in the long run.

Yeah, they have those fiscal year meetings where they expect to reach x sales and they also report to stakeholders to the condition of the company based on those figures. From what I heard the actual developers are harassed more than the customers themselves, with overtime and lack of needed pay for their provided man-hours. Its messed up really. On the other hand, CDPR has now more than 200 employees working for W3 and C77 and they are still hiring (5 pages of jobs available right now). I don't know how they did it, but I am glad because they are going to show those corps how gaming development works in reality (pretty sure a lot of meetings were held already by people analyzing the success of Witcher 3 and how it became GOTY - I can imagine their faces when C77 really hits the street).
 
CDPR hasn't done any major non-combat gameplay resolution, though. And you know, it's tough to do and not be under or overpowered.

Playing the new Torment - so far, combat is the fool's choice. Persuasion/deception is a better idea - same rewards, less effort, and more resources for other tasks. Now, balance passes are coming, but still.

Fallout 4 - non-combat resolutions are possible, including making the enemy just stop or even fight for you as you leave. Which is cool. But deep non-combat options that reflect your choices and alter the story are rarer.

And let's not turn this into a FO4 bitch session - already got a thread for that.

So a non-combat resolution method that is fun, not-OP and has a lasting effect on the gameworld? Tough. You have to think ahead and leave in options and ways around, half of which will be ignored because combat.

So I'm...interested to see what they do. Because push comes to shove, Geralt doesn't talk his way out and he doesn't sneak his way out and he doesn't tactics his way out or send in allies. He tends to go choppy-burny-Quen.

We'll have to see.
 
Playing the new Torment - so far, combat is the fool's choice. Persuasion/deception is a better idea - same rewards, less effort, and more resources for other tasks. Now, balance passes are coming, but still.
I suspect much like the original Torment it's designed such that you can fight but in almost all cases there's a non combat solution as well.
 
I suspect much like the original Torment it's designed such that you can fight but in almost all cases there's a non combat solution as well.

Oh, absolutely and they've made that clear. It's more that fighting, so far, is never a smart choice. Now, pacifism aside, sometimes you have to fight if you want a..less than terminal or horrible result.

And so far, you should talk your way out. Makes combat an inferior choice.
 
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