Lessons learnt from Red Dead Redemption 2 applied to CP77

+
I don't think we can compare 2 different genres, of course an RPG will give you more choices than an action game (linear), but when it comes to missions' structure, I honestly don't remember anything different than speak/kill/witcher sense in TW3.
If we look at GTA V missions, we have:

- go there and kill everyone
- car chasing/races
- flying elicopters
- flying planes
- make an house collapse
- heists (all different)
- watercrafts
- sniping
- jumping on a plane
- jumping on a train
- boats
- paparazzi
- taxi driving (activity)
- cinema (activity)
- golf (activity)
- tennis (activity)

and these are the first ones that came to my mind, plus several missions are highly spectacular so they don't look the same "go there kill those guys".
TW3 doesn't have all of this, but keeps you interested with narrative (and the addictive/rewarding cycle of loot/level up that I hate, but does its job).
I KNOW cyberpunk will deliver on narrative, but I hope they can give more variety in missions. If they do that, balance the RPG's stats properly (not like TW3 where you could break the game with the alchemy and attacks skill trees) and use stats to create different approaches to missions, they could ceate a real game changing product.
If they also get rid of that terrible loot system CP2077 will have good chances of becoming my favourite game ever (and I don't even like FPP).
 
I don't think we can compare 2 different genres, of course an RPG will give you more choices than an action game (linear), but when it comes to missions' structure, I honestly don't remember anything different than speak/kill/witcher sense in TW3.
If we look at GTA V missions, we have:

- go there and kill everyone
- car chasing/races
- flying elicopters
- flying planes
- make an house collapse
- heists (all different)
- watercrafts
- sniping
- jumping on a plane
- jumping on a train
- boats
- paparazzi
- taxi driving (activity)
- cinema (activity)
- golf (activity)
- tennis (activity)

and these are the first ones that came to my mind, plus several missions are highly spectacular so they don't look the same "go there kill those guys".
TW3 doesn't have all of this, but keeps you interested with narrative (and the addictive/rewarding cycle of loot/level up that I hate, but does its job).
I KNOW cyberpunk will deliver on narrative, but I hope they can give more variety in missions. If they do that, balance the RPG's stats properly (not like TW3 where you could break the game with the alchemy and attacks skill trees) and use stats to create different approaches to missions, they could ceate a real game changing product.
If they also get rid of that terrible loot system CP2077 will have good chances of becoming my favourite game ever (and I don't even like FPP).
Sorry, I should have been more clear. What I was referring to with freedom was indeed narrative-related. That's why I compared GTA V to the Last of Us in terms of no narrative freedom.

You're absolutely right that, gameplay-wise, the Witcher 3 offered you very little in that regard. I mean, you could argue that the choice between alchemy-focused, sword-focused, and magic-focused builds offered some degree of variation, but that's not all that different from GTA letting you choose what gun to use in a practical sense.

I agree that I want them to nail it with 2077. I think they will, or at least come closer than they ever have before. It seems like they're taking inspiration from all the right games, like Bloodlines, Deus Ex, and the Elder Scrolls games. I think we'll get the freedom to approach things as we wish, likely in ways the devs never intended. That's just how it goes when you open up your game even a little bit. Unless 2077 regularly puts you in those situations where it's "kill everyone in the room to proceed," I think we'll be able to get very creative, whether CDPR wants us to or not.
 
Ok you are taking one of the most creative developers to task, because Geralt can't fly, drive taxis and whatnot. I get it. They use Witcher vision a lot...have you looked at how 90% of fantasy quest design is done?
 
Disparity between side quests and main story is common, as I'm sure you know, but I'll happily take that dissonance alongside fun side missions, rather than have content cut or barred from me in game. In the end, when I put time aside, the gameplay comes first, not the simulation. Having said that, it shouldn't be impossible to reconcile these things.

I dislike missing out on sidequests but I also feel at least some should be a reward for thorough, common sense exploration. If everything is just signposted and hand-fed to the player it takes away some of the satisfaction and mystery. It's a tough one for me to call though because I certainly wouldn't want to miss out on sidequests that effect the main plot. Although, if they do that, are they really side-quests? Hmm. In W3, I turned off '?' map markers. I wanted to find stuff myself and look for landmarks that seemingly beckoned to me. Sometimes there was nothing, but when I did find something, it felt natural and rewarding, the way it might feel if I was exploring those lands myself.

Game time doesn't worry me. If the game is still fun, then I don't care. I remember people saying Alien: Isolation was too long but I think it was more a case of, 'it ran out of ideas for the last hour or so'. There's a difference. Side note: when I played through the game a second time, it didn't seem too long. Perhaps because I knew what was coming and how best to handle it. Maybe the developers were too close to the game to see how it would feel for first time players? Anyway, I completed W3 in 138 hours, without expansions. I was so in love with the game world, I didn't want to stop so I kept playing to find Witcher Sets I didn't even need and then turned the ?'s back on to scour the land one more time. Final playtime 155 hours.

If CDPR can produce the same quality in CP2077, then I hope for another 50 hour campaign, with loads of side quests :)

As for what I'd say are lessons to be learned from RDR2, I'd say this.

Don't be stingy with fast travel. I don't care how beautiful a world you create. I'm the player and I'll decide when I want to watch the scenery roll by and when I just want to get on with quests. I had a great time appreciating the scenery and setting up screenshots in W3 (took 500+) without the game forcing me to ride through it all the time.

Gameplay, as in actual hands-on, dexterity based gameplay. Do it better than RDR2. I think I'm safe here though since the gunplay in the E3 demo looked good. I'm not expecting it to be revolutionary or as good as games that specialise in FPS. I just want it to be better than the gunplay in RDR2, which I felt was a decidedly mediocre 5/10, especially on horse back. I want better for CP.

Don't have excessive 'hold the button down to open something up'. RDR does it for so many things, even for saving your game for crying out loud. The latest Metro did this in excess too, imho. Make things snappier.

Better UI, particularly item selection. You get your rifle out in RDR2 then holster it because you want to loot something. An enemy comes out from a shed in the distance, you press aim and.....he gets his pistol out. What? Why can't he just get out his last used weapon? Maybe there was a button for this I missed but it seems like I have to go into the damn weapon-wheel way too often. I'm guessing keyboard and mouse will alleviate some of these things.

Don't have missions which just suddenly cut to a failure screen because you didn't stay right by your escort or partner. Can't they stick close to you? If it really is narratively important then fine but I took just a few steps too far from a team-mate who was in no trouble (in order to loot a body) and bam, 'Game Over'.

Finally, don't make the law some kind of hive mind mob of psychopaths. For example, I accidentally got on the wrong horse and immediately got off again. Not good enough. Within 30 seconds I had 10+ deputies shooting at me, like I'd just murdered the Mayor or something. It's also suspicious how random strangers turn up in the middle of the wilderness the moment a body is on the ground. I killed a bunch of bandits and before I could even loot them all someone turned up. Chased him down, threatened, went back to the bodies and voila, yet another passerby. Happened 5 times, partly because looting takes so long with all the damn button holding. In the end, there were almost as many civilians knocked out on the ground as there were bandits :s
 
Sorry, I should have been more clear. What I was referring to with freedom was indeed narrative-related. That's why I compared GTA V to the Last of Us in terms of no narrative freedom.
I wasn't referring to you, but to the post below yours. As usual I agree with all you wrote :cool:
Ok you are taking one of the most creative developers to task, because Geralt can't fly, drive taxis and whatnot. I get it. They use Witcher vision a lot...have you looked at how 90% of fantasy quest design is done?
Wait, I'm not saying that mission variety is a big problem in TW3, like I believe it's not in RDR2 (classic fantasy game and a cowboy game). I'm just saying that I hope CDPR will add more variety in CP2077, where you can actually add whatever kind of mission you fancy (even more than any GTA, sci-fi opens the doors to imagination). Car races/chasings (something was shown in the demo, good), a stealth mission? a sniping mission? netrunning? some scripted (but that requires skills, not AC-like) platforming to escape a building collapsing? These are all things that can be done. Of course everything must rely on character's stats and build and I'd prefer a big number of possible approaches to mission, freedom based on the build, but I'd also like to see some scripted missions here and there to have some highly spectacular moments, like when you travel worlds in TW3 or the last mission, just more interactive with a thrill of adrenaline and amusement. 90% of missions where you have "total" freedom and 10% of spectacular scripted events.
 
Last edited:
Ok you are taking one of the most creative developers to task, because Geralt can't fly, drive taxis and whatnot. I get it. They use Witcher vision a lot...have you looked at how 90% of fantasy quest design is done?
No, not at all. It's all about the sort of game you want to make. If this was The Witcher 4, I wouldn't be asking CDPR for anything different than the past games. It'd be silly to expect that. The Witcher is a very story-driven experience, and you play as a specific character.

As @Mybrokenenglish said, we're just thinking that 2077 could benefit from more variety because of the type of game it is - CDPR themselves have said it takes inspiration from popular immersive sims and open-ended games like TES V, Deus Ex, etc. Honestly, it's probably pointless to even ask because it's already being done, but y'know, nature of forums and all that.

I loved the Witcher 3. I've got something like, hm, 500 hours across the GOTY and regular version. The whole series, even more. Definitely not going to complain about what we got there.
 
The Witcher series was just fine. As others have mentioned it wasn't an open-ended RPG. You played a specific person with a pre-set background and a fairly pre-set personality. Not a thing wrong with those sorts of games.

Now a open world, create your own character game (i.e. Fallout 1 & 2 or Bloodlines 1) is an entirely different matter.

But so many people seem to confuse Diablos' choice of warrior, rogue, mage as an RPG (along with other similar games). Choice of playstyle doth not make a game an RPG.
 
Top Bottom