Let V not drink or smoke.

[LeKill3rFou]

Why, earlier in the game, give the player the choice of the opposite, then?

I quote you, but others also pointed out it's inconsistent. But in my opinion it is pretty consistent and totally follow the growth of Johnny influence on V. At the beginning of the the game, Johnny don't have much influence on V, so they let players decide. But more the game move on, more Johnny influence grow and so, V start to do things that she won't normally do, without really paying attention (like smoking a bit with Judy).
When Hellman say to V that at some point, she'll start to do things that she would never have done before. I guess smoking is one of these "things"

The good example it's after Disaster Piece, depending of "when" you complete the quest, V can refuse to smoke (or accept) or do it without knwoning really why, saying it calm her nerves (Johnny answer it's because it fullfill his own nicotin addiction^^).

 

[tavellone]

Hey, no worries, I don't take stuff personally on the internet. It's hard to express difficult opinions in written form with strangers. I'm sure that both of our positions are more nuanced than showed so far.

As far as the straw man, sure, in a way. My point was more that I don't see those situations in CP2077 as inconsistencies. Someone can refuse 99% of drinks offered to them, even saying they never drink, then have a ritual shot at a funeral and I will not call them inconsistent.

For the art preservation part, we might have to agree to disagree. Art can be criticized and should be. Changed? I don't think so. Take it as it is from the moment it is done and move on. Criticized it all you want, but the original intent should not be modified. Just my opinion. Art is little bits and parts of people. It should be left to them who did it to decide what they want to do it with it.

Well, the issue with it being or not being inconsistent is a matter of perspective, but the main gripe here really isn't the consistency or inconsistency of the character, rather the lack of a choice in the matter when it was previously there and frankly seemed to me and others as a character trait that you could have. It's more of a narrative inconsistency, which if we are talking about art is something that deserves some criticism. Now I don't care enough to make a thread about it and I'd certainly never have mentioned it if there wasn't a thread about it, frankly I have no real world issue with drinking, smoking or drug use, but it still made me think at one point that this character started smoking without my choice when previously every time I was given one. It just seems a bit weird to continuously give a choice then arbitrarily remove it and the times V smokes without player input isn't really justified narratively, It is just thrown in there haphazardly, it's especially noteable given that every other time V is given the opportunity to smoke or drink it actually has a narrative context behind it. It just seems to me that either the writers got bored of this choice OR (and I think this isore likely) a separate writer or designer forgot or did not know that these narrative events were happening and the scene was just made and never accounted for or when it was caught it was too far along in the process that the developers thought 'fuck it, nobody will really care anyway'.

As for the discussion about what art is etc etc, I would be happy to discuss it, but it's probably too far off topic to justify a full on discussion here. I will say that I wasn't saying that a piece of art should necessarily be changed, but that demands should be made of it, including demands to change it, as these demands will ultimately affect the art that will be created out of that. Generally however I am in agreement that a finished piece of art probably should be left as is, for better or worse, though a discussion like this becomes difficult in the digital age, especially when dealing with a video game, especially one that has literally been continuously changed over the past three years, even narratively with Phantom Liberty and there's a pretty large narrative issue I have with that, that frankly I wish would be different. Now I'm not the sort of person to make a demand that it be changed because ultimately it is a video game and as I said I fundamentally agree that once a piece of art is done it should stay done, but I would at least make a demand that the writers pay attention to my grievance because I think it is important enough to warrant discussion.

Now I am using the word demand in a very pedantic way and I'm kind of being obtuse for the sake of it, so sorry about that. I don't mean demand in the sense of actively campaigning for an existing art to be changed because quite frankly I don't take that too seriously. I know this thread is literally that, but as much as I don't take it seriously it at least created a discussion that is in some way worthy of discussion and serious questioning.

Also, I don't mind debating anything with you, but surely we can keep the "it's disingenuous" commentary out, no? You can disagree with my methods, but let's not assume intent, if we can.

Apologies, I have a tendency to be combative in discussions. It isn't intended out of malice.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well said. Have a drink.

Heh. You're saying it to be funny, but you make a point. Both are dangerous narcotics that have wreaked havoc on humanity. Alcohol is much worse for mind altering, and nicotine, well, cancer. Although that might not be the case by 2077, but I don't recall.

More interestingly, the game does not force you to drink or smoke. BUT, if you don't do things people (NPCs) want you do to do, then they aren't necessarily going to do what you want to do.

This is very realistic, I think. Some people (real world) get pretty peeved and see it as an insult when you won't bend your rigid principles to make an exception on what is basically a harmless one-off. Believe me, do they ever.

This is especially true in the underside of society, oh yes. Man, can they be touchy.

So it's quite fair that you don't have to socially drink or smoke, and that NPCs don't have to socialize with you.

Choice. Consequences.

 

[Netrunner2go]

I quote you, but others also pointed out it's not consistent. But in my opinion it is pretty consistent. At the beginning of the the game, Johnny don't have much influence on V, so they let players decide. But more the game move on, more Johnny grow and so, V start to do things that she won't normally do, without really paying attention (like smoking a bit with Judy).

The good example it's after Disaster Piece, depending of "when" you complete the quest, V can refuse to smoke (or accept) or do it without knwoning really why, saying it calm her nerves (Johnny answer it's because it fullfill his own nicotin addiction^^).

Yeah… I never questioned it because of this - always felt logical for me. Been a bit buffeled about the fact that many obviously don’t feel/see it the same way ^^‘

 

[lefouduroi.pr]

Well, the issue with it being or not being inconsistent is a matter of perspective, but the main gripe here really isn't the consistency or inconsistency of the character, rather the lack of a choice in the matter when it was previously there and frankly seemed to me and others as a character trait that you could have. It's more of a narrative inconsistency, which if we are talking about art is something that deserves some criticism. Now I don't care enough to make a thread about it and I'd certainly never have mentioned it if there wasn't a thread about it, frankly I have no real world issue with drinking, smoking or drug use, but it still made me think at one point that this character started smoking without my choice when previously every time I was given one. It just seems a bit weird to continuously give a choice then arbitrarily remove it and the times V smokes without player input isn't really justified narratively, It is just thrown in there haphazardly, it's especially noteable given that every other time V is given the opportunity to smoke or drink it actually has a narrative context behind it. It just seems to me that either the writers got bored of this choice OR (and I think this isore likely) a separate writer or designer forgot or did not know that these narrative events were happening and the scene was just made and never accounted for or when it was caught it was too far along in the process that the developers thought 'fuck it, nobody will really care anyway'.

As for the discussion about what art is etc etc, I would be happy to discuss it, but it's probably too far off topic to justify a full on discussion here. I will say that I wasn't saying that a piece of art should necessarily be changed, but that demands should be made of it, including demands to change it, as these demands will ultimately affect the art that will be created out of that. Generally however I am in agreement that a finished piece of art probably should be left as is, for better or worse, though a discussion like this becomes difficult in the digital age, especially when dealing with a video game, especially one that has literally been continuously changed over the past three years, even narratively with Phantom Liberty and there's a pretty large narrative issue I have with that, that frankly I wish would be different. Now I'm not the sort of person to make a demand that it be changed because ultimately it is a video game and as I said I fundamentally agree that once a piece of art is done it should stay done, but I would at least make a demand that the writers pay attention to my grievance because I think it is important enough to warrant discussion.

Now I am using the word demand in a very pedantic way and I'm kind of being obtuse for the sake of it, so sorry about that. I don't mean demand in the sense of actively campaigning for an existing art to be changed because quite frankly I don't take that too seriously. I know this thread is literally that, but as much as I don't take it seriously it at least created a discussion that is in some way worthy of discussion and serious questioning.

Cheers.

I personally don't see it as a "fuck it" moment, more as a this is where we got narratively. That's subjective anyways.

For the lack of choice, that would be opening a can of worms about how far or deep choices should be in RPGs, which for me is too much of a rabbit hole to go through here and now.

We can't choose everything. Most of the story is on rail and I have no problem with this. This is how this game works, with some flavor relatated choices mostly, and that is fine by me. Other games do it differently, and I love those as well.

I wished I remained dead after taking the bullet to the head. The story forced me back alive. Where did I get to choose? It would be more consistent with the world that a "sane" person like me would wish to be dead instead of roaming this decadent, brutalist world of decay.

I am sorry about that, ithe thought made me laugh, at least.

 

[Tarille]

Someone else said it, but something about when the argument becomes demands.

I think that most dicourse is far, far away from being "Demands"

This is a forum. It's meant for discussion. It's not even a direct line to the developers. Thus, there's not really going to be much "Demand" put on them if at all.

Now you start rallying around a petition to change something, start doing negative things like reviewbombing, harassing, etc. Maybe that could be considered demanding. But simply making a request on a public forum is not a "Demand"

Heck, you could even make a poll about the thing on the forum and it still wouldn't be a "Demand" because by the nature of a "Demand" it needs to come with pressure to go along with it. Which is non-existent on a discussion forum.

I am a straight man, but if a game has a character that is shoehorn into a same-sex interaction, I won't be offended, nor distraught one bit by it. It is their piece of art, they wanted me to feel this, so be it.

That's totally misconstruing the entire arguement.

Again, the argument isn't that the inclusion of smoking/drinking/drug use is "Offensive" or making people "Distraught". It's the narrative dissonence that is providing player choices, then removing them arbitrarily.

Literally no-one has had a problem with Johnny in this thread. The scenes where you go into his memories and he smokes and drinks and takes drugs is fine. Since that's simply the character.

When it becomes an issue is when V, has been taking the OPTIONS to decline such things. Then the entire concept of those OPTIONS are removed with no narrative backing.

If it was put across that V smokes/drinks/takes drugs in these situations where options were not presented, by narratively conveying that Johnny's personality is taking over, then this shoehorning wouldn't be so egregious. But not only is this not conveyed, it also narratively makes no sense for Johnny's personality to be dominant in these situations.

Again, it comes down to this discrepancy between most of the game where V has choices in these things. Then arbitrary scenarios where they don't get a choice in these things (Arbitrary meaning it doesn't make sense either for V or for Johnny/it is not narratively shown that Johnny's personality is taking control in the situation). Rather than what those things are.

 

[Netrunner2go]

Cheers.

I wished I remained dead after taking the bullet to the head. The story forced me back alive. Where did I get to choose? It would be more consistent with the world that a "sane" person like me would wish to be dead instead of roaming this decadent, brutalist world of decay.

I am sorry about that, ithe thought made me laugh, at least.

That one made me smile as well xD

 

[mightymatt27]

While I agree with some of what you said, I think that in those moments, they wanted to emphasize some points with it. It's a bit pointless to go in details of what or why they wanted this, IMO, but it is fair to assume that they did it for narrative reasons, which is why I think they should keep it that way - for better or worse.

So my question is what narratively are they emphasizing in those moments? What is the narrative emphasis for smoking after sex? If they gave you the choice for non-smoking V how does it narratively make sense? Why is it fair to say they had narrative reasons? Even if there is a narrative reason, it doesn't mean it's a good one.

I mentioned earlier about a very clear narrative emphasis about V being "influenced" by Johnny to almost take a smoke after the Helman interrogation.

I think the simplest, most likely answer is my made a cut scene that they only wanted to do once. They made a choice to go with sexy smoking times. They could have done sexy times scene w/o the smoking so that it makes sense overall. Or they could have done two versions. They didn't. So they dropped their commitment to a detail they offered.

You're right that it's pointless to go into details, because out side of what I said above, there is nothing any of us have to go on to say why they made this choice. The fact that we are on the brink of spinning our wheels to figure out what that narrative choice means or if it even legitimately exists underscores that the commitment to that smoking choice/detail was not 100% consistent. And that's on them.

(again, this is critique, and not saying "boo CDPR". I don't think anyone's expressed that so far. Most of the people I see here love this game approximately as much as I do)

I don't expect anyone thinks this would be changed (assuming that's even being asked), there are far and away bigger fish to fry and not a lot of time left till CDPR sticks a fork in this.
(did I mix my metaphors there? but, like, you eat fish with a fork, so it not mixing metaphors right? idk)

 

[tavellone]

Cheers.

I personally don't see it as a "fuck it" moment, more as a this is where we got narratively. That's subjective anyways.

For the lack of choice, that would be opening a can of worms about how far or deep choices should be in RPGs, which for me is too much of a rabbit hole to go through here and now.

We can't choose everything. Most of the story is on rail and I have no problem with this. This is how this game works, with some flavor relatated choices mostly, and that is fine by me. Other games do it differently, and I love those as well.

I wished I remained dead after taking the bullet to the head. The story forced me back alive. Where did I get to choose? It would be more consistent with the world that a "sane" person like me would wish to be dead instead of roaming this decadent, brutalist world of decay.

I am sorry about that, ithe thought made me laugh, at least.

Sure, but within any game there are parameters set to what extent a player has choice in a game and relative to what. There are games that have built their whole premise on what choice means in a game and in reality and how they act relative to each other, but without getting too philosophical about it and keeping in mind that for all the subjects this game broaches it doesn't touch this subject at all, we can at least go by what parameters the game is setting. Now this whole smoking and drinking thing isn't really that important in the grand scheme of things, but the game set forward the idea that you could make a choice for your character to drink and smoke or not drink or smoke. At some point this just stops and the stopping of this is abrupt and is not addressed narratively or practically. It just seems like it was forgotten about. I would expect that if there were to be a point to the player choice being removed it would have some weight behind it, that it would have a reason, but it isn't, it's just... gone. Maybe there was a point being made out of thi in itself in a metanarrative sense, but if it was then it flew right over my head. For this reason I think it was just an oversight.

Now again I'm only even talking about this because a thread was made about it and frankly there are a lot of inconsistencies in player choice that I have a much greater gripe with in this game than this, but ultimately I still think it is valid if someone feels strongly about that it should be discussed,. because there's clearly enough people who noticed this that it has warranted a three page discussion on a topic that is frankly so menial. If there weren't enough justification I don't feel like the discussion would have lasted this long and I don't think it's just a bunch of uppity straight edge types hammering on about their ideology either.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

So my question is what narratively are they emphasizing in those moments? What is the narrative emphasis for smoking after sex?

Narratively, it's a fact, Johnny is addicted to nicotine. So at this point of the story, Johnny have a such influence that V is pretty much addicted too... so V smoke without paying attention. Judy lights a cigarette and so, thanks to Johnny addiction, V smoke a bit. It's just instinctive.
I think it's one a the little way CDPR keep players aware of Johnny influence. Outside of that, there is pretty much nothing else.

 

[tavellone]

Narratively, it's a fact, Johnny is addicted to nicotine. So at this point of the story, Johnny have a such influence that V is pretty much addicted too... so V smoke without paying attention.

Well the game isn't particularly linear, so this doesn't hold much water. There are scenes where V smokes and drinks without your input that can happen before scenes where you are allowed to choose. If it were Johnny's influence this wouldn't be the case. Also Johnny was a drug user, if what you are saying were true then V would start casually using drugs. There's one mission in Phantom Liberty where Johnny even lambasts you for taking drugs.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Well the game isn't particularly linear, so this doesn't hold much water. There are scenes where V smokes and drinks without your input that can happen before scenes where you are allowed to choose.

Hum... Which scenes?
As far as I remember, there are few moments when V smoke without players imput. I have only two moment in my mind in the base game...
With judy pretty much "end-game" and after disaster piece depending in which order you complete main quest.

 

[Netrunner2go]

There are scenes where V (…) drinks without your input that can happen before scenes where you are allowed to choose.

Which ones are theses? :0

 

[tavellone]

Hum... Which scenes?
As far as I remember, there are few moments when V smoke without players imput. I have only two moment in my mind in the base game...
With judy pretty much "end-game" and after disaster piece depending in which order you complete main quest.

Well I was looking for examples and apparently it's the opposite and there actually are scenes where V will smoke without your input depending on how far you are in the story where previously you could choose so I guess I'll eat my words and sit this one out.

Have a good day everyone!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

there actually are scenes where V will smoke without your input depending on how far you are in the story where previously you could choose

Yes, it's during Disaster Piece (find Evelyn), if you do this quest first, you are able to refuse/accept to smoke. But if you completed Ghost Town/Lightning Breaks (find Hellman) before, you're more advanced in the story (so Johnny's influence is "stronger"), V smoke without player imput.
Beside, after I walk The Line/Transmission (find Alt), so in theory, even later in the game, you're always able to refuse/accept to smoke during the dialogue. But if you refuse to smoke during the dialogue, it's more V rebellion against Johnny (No, I'm not like you!!!)
And with Judy, it's in theory even later in the game, so V smoke without even paying attention.

 

[Netrunner2go]

Yes, it's during Disaster Piece (find Evelyn), if you do this quest first, you are able to refuse/accept to smoke. But if you completed Ghost Town/Lightning Breaks (find Hellman) before, you're more advanced in the story (so Johnny's influence is "stronger"), V smoke without player imput.

Didn’t even noticed that… interesting… :0

 

[Tarille]

Yes, it's during Disaster Piece (find Evelyn), if you do this quest first, you are able to refuse/accept to smoke. But if you completed Ghost Town/Lightning Breaks (find Hellman) before, you're more advanced in the story (so Johnny's influence is "stronger"), V smoke without player imput.

I'm 99.99% sure that is incorrect.

I know my Streetkid V did Ghost Town/Lightning Breaks and even progressed through to Queen of the Highway and still had the option to not smoke during Disaster Piece.

But my Nomad V did Disaster Piece first and did automatically light up during that scene.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I'm 99.99% sure that is incorrect.

Hum... I'm pretty sure it's correct. I have enough playthroughs to be pretty confident. If you complete Disaster Piece first, before any other main quest*, you'll always have the option to refuse to smoke
*Could be Lightning Breaks + Down On The Street (Goro).

 

[Tarille]

Hum... I'm pretty sure it's correct.

Pretty sure it's not.

As I mentioned, I progressed way past Lightning Breaks and got the option to not smoke. As I also did Disaster Piece before any other story mission and got no option, I just smoked.

 

[mightymatt27]

You do get the choice to not smoke after the second narrative Relic stroke, after kidnapping Helman. V reflexively puts it in her mouth... hold onto the lighter for a bit and then you get a choice. (vid below)

CDPR were very intentional about that choice in relation to becoming more like Johnny. Having V almost light up and pause so friggin long.

Which is why I don't buy the "becoming like Johnny" rationale for Pyramid Song sexy times.

• Anytime there is significant influence/intrusion you get the Relic visuals or sound.
• Pyramid song is doe not happen in a specified time. It can be early game. It can be super late game. So saying that Johnny's influence "at this point" doesn't really work since the timing is very relative..
• There are two Relic Strokes that happen when V has a "come to Johnny" moment happen after raiding Clouds and interrogation Hellman (as we know). CDPR narratively intended one Relic episode to happen before the other. Because you can interrogate Hellman before raiding Clouds, CDPR made sure the they had scenes for Relic Episode I for post Raid and post-interrogation and likewise for Relic Episode II. This demonstrates how careful and intentional CDPR were with their narrative handling.

Sexy Smoking Times

• Does not show indicators that normal signal Johnny or Relic interference.
• May or may not occur when the influence is getting stronger because it has a large time window in which to occur.
• Even when V was being influences in Relic Episode II, they had a choice.
• The narrative handle was much stronger and definitive over all and in the instance where V nearly lit up.

At best, if there was narrative intention it was sloppy in comparison to how it had been handled over all. At worst (or maybe this is best, idk, who cares )... the took their eye completely off the ball in that instance. Worthy of critique, sure, but hardly impacting what is otherwise a fantastically well done game/story.

Edit-- I don't speak Spanish (crap, is that even the language in this vid?) but there was a choice and the player in the video lit up their cig. So yeah, I'm assuming the other choice was to not light up. If it wasn't that could be funnier though...