Let's talk aromor and weapons in terms of immersion

[ash23neuro]

Hello guys and gals
Game was often told to be very immersive. In some fields it is but in others it's very far from being.

Don't you find it strange that a bandana or a baseball cap can have same amount of armor as an Arasaka armored helmet? I played PnP Cyberpunk 2020 and if you wanted to be bullet proof (there is no such a thing) you had to invest in armored clothes etc. If you wanted to look cool you could but no way you coud take a bullet and survive. In many games you have armor classes like light (stealth, evasion), medium or heavy (tank like) and each has it cons and pros. I don't like this kind of solution.

When it comes to weapon you don't have to buy anything (even ammo) in shops (they shoud go bankrupt) because everything they sell there is worthless. Instead you find enormous amount of gear from defeated enemies and what is more funny each has different statistics as if manufacturers had no any standard for their products. There are no different kinds of ammo like armor piercing, explosive or incendiary etc. So many simplifications...

Share your thoughts.

 

[OriginalTerror]

What do those things have to do with immersion?

 

[simon_brooke]

What do those things have to do with immersion?

Because in the real world a pair of hotpants, no matter how cool they look, do not have the same protection as a pair of long bulletproof trousers. A bandana isn't going to offer any protection from a bullet. It isn't believable.

 

[OriginalTerror]

Because in the real world a pair of hotpants, no matter how cool they look, do not have the same protection as a pair of long bulletproof trousers. A bandana isn't going to offer any protection from a bullet. It isn't believable.

And again, what does that have to do with immersion? Immersion has absolutely nothing to do with realism. And realism is already a questionable commodity in the Cyberpunk universe.

 

[ash23neuro]

Because in the real world a pair of hotpants, no matter how cool they look, do not have the same protection as a pair of long bulletproof trousers. A bandana isn't going to offer any protection from a bullet. It isn't believable.

Exactly what I mean.

And again, what does that have to do with immersion? Immersion has absolutely nothing to do with realism. And realism is already a questionable commodity in the Cyberpunk universe.

As paper version player I can assure you it tried to be believable as much as it could. Believability influences immersion.

 

[simon_brooke]

And again, what does that have to do with immersion? Immersion has absolutely nothing to do with realism. And realism is already a questionable commodity in the Cyberpunk universe.

Immersion has everything to do with believability. If you don't believe it, you can't be immersed.

 

[Rensarvik]

I find it quite weird how they went with giving all clothing armor stats then cyberware could easily fill same role while feeling more realistic. Imo most of the armor should come from cyberware, and clothing should be divided into 2 groups:
1) civilian, street - most stuff goes here, no stats
2) combat, military - bulletproof vests, military helmets etc. some armor values but also some negative effect for balance, like for example a nerf to your street cred gain, because wearing functional military gear makes you look less stylish

 

[silversurfpunk]

Sure it's a little strange, but this kind of system isn't out of the ordinary. You gotta think that most of this stuff is randomly assigned armor values. To go through and make a system that sorts clothes into categories (e.g. bulletproof items, street ware, and high fashion), then assigned characteristics and armor values, would be quite a big system for something that you only see in menu screens and in the mirror. Personally I like seeing all the odd ball costumes that V wears in order to stay as protected as possible.

 

[Khemikalburn]

Because in the real world a pair of hotpants, no matter how cool they look, do not have the same protection as a pair of long bulletproof trousers. A bandana isn't going to offer any protection from a bullet. It isn't believable.

I don't know, tight fitting kevlar hot pants could potentially deflect bullets... Imagine the possibilities.

 

[Don_the_brawler]

I dont really put a lot of thought to it. Realistically it's funny how a bra you found later on in the game has more armor than a bullet proof vest you found early on in the game. Game wise? Makes sense. Further you progress the higher stats go. You can run around in a full suit of armor if "immersion" is that important to you. I say the baseball caps and hot pants and whatever should stay and still have potentially as good as stats as the armor. It's nice Because choosing outfits is mostly an aesthetics thing. I've never worn a bullet proof vest nor do I want to. I wear a netrunner suit, burn corpo shit pants with a smiley face, exo-Jack shoes, a bd wreath and whatever coat I fancy at the moment. Is that very protective? Compared to Arasaka soldiers? No. However I don't wanna dress like Arasaka soldiers to get the same armor benefits.

I get your point and all, but I believe it's good for people to have the option of wearing whatever outfits they want without having to sacrifice efficiency.

 

[ralfetas]

I find it quite weird how they went with giving all clothing armor stats then cyberware could easily fill same role while feeling more realistic. Imo most of the armor should come from cyberware, and clothing should be divided into 2 groups:
1) civilian, street - most stuff goes here, no stats
2) combat, military - bulletproof vests, military helmets etc. some armor values but also some negative effect for balance, like for example a nerf to your street cred gain, because wearing functional military gear makes you look less stylish

THAT! Could not agreed more.
Armor should go to cyberware parts, and using military clothing could be the tank version, losing a lot of stealth perks etc...

I don´t believe they will put this now... this game really deserve a hard reset...

 

[Torbaal]

I completely agree with you here. To be honest, I was hoping that the devs would go pass that old mechanics, offer us something brand new and do no repeat some mistakes they, in my opinion, made in the Witcher 3 where you start not able to craft the simpliest, most commons potions Geralt must have learned during the 2 first games.
Sorry, back to the point...
I'm an old RPer, PnP, LARP, Video game RPG I'm into it. I created some, expecially LARPs and creating the rules and define character progression is a huge part of the fun I have. After decades, I came to this conclusion : the more realistic, the better. The lighter the rules are, the better. The less min max mechanics, the more immersive it gets.
In Cyberpunk, I wish that without any cyberware, taking a bullet just kills you. A couple if you still want that crazy MaxDoc stuff that allows you to survive to multiple gun shots but wasn't able to save Jacky...
And I do hate the leveled items mechanics. Why on Earth am I not able to pick up or use this gun ? Why does the same gun do 10 dmg when I first pick it up and 100 a few days later ? It's even worth with clothes... It doesn't make any sense, and serves the only purpose of character progression, in a very, very, old fashioned way.
This problem does not concern only CDPR and CP 2077, but almost every RPG or Action RPG there is. It seems we are far from the next gen RPG yet it has nothing to do with time, money, or technological issues. The problem is that creators are stuck with the old DnD mechanics, old concepts that have been replaced in many innovative PnP games now that seem to be completely ignored and unknown.
Another thing that do bother me is the attribute system : going from 3 to 20 makes a huge difference, and V can achive this in a matter of days, for several attributes...
It is of course too late to change most of this in the current game, but I do hope devs from every company will one day take the risk of doing something really new, focusing a lot more on immersion, striped of the old mechanics from the 80s.

I find it quite weird how they went with giving all clothing armor stats then cyberware could easily fill same role while feeling more realistic. Imo most of the armor should come from cyberware, and clothing should be divided into 2 groups:
1) civilian, street - most stuff goes here, no stats
2) combat, military - bulletproof vests, military helmets etc. some armor values but also some negative effect for balance, like for example a nerf to your street cred gain, because wearing functional military gear makes you look less stylish

Yes, totally with you on this !

 

[ash23neuro]

I find it quite weird how they went with giving all clothing armor stats then cyberware could easily fill same role while feeling more realistic. Imo most of the armor should come from cyberware, and clothing should be divided into 2 groups:
1) civilian, street - most stuff goes here, no stats
2) combat, military - bulletproof vests, military helmets etc. some armor values but also some negative effect for balance, like for example a nerf to your street cred gain, because wearing functional military gear makes you look less stylish

Subdermal armor is a joke when compared to high level panties

Post automatically merged: Feb 4, 2021

I completely agree with you here. To be honest, I was hoping that the devs would go pass that old mechanics, offer us something brand new and do no repeat some mistakes they, in my opinion, made in the Witcher 3 where you start not able to craft the simpliest, most commons potions Geralt must have learned during the 2 first games.
Sorry, back to the point...
I'm an old RPer, PnP, LARP, Video game RPG I'm into it. I created some, expecially LARPs and creating the rules and define character progression is a huge part of the fun I have. After decades, I came to this conclusion : the more realistic, the better. The lighter the rules are, the better. The less min max mechanics, the more immersive it gets.
In Cyberpunk, I wish that without any cyberware, taking a bullet just kills you. A couple if you still want that crazy MaxDoc stuff that allows you to survive to multiple gun shots but wasn't able to save Jacky...
And I do hate the leveled items mechanics. Why on Earth am I not able to pick up or use this gun ? Why does the same gun do 10 dmg when I first pick it up and 100 a few days later ? It's even worth with clothes... It doesn't make any sense, and serves the only purpose of character progression, in a very, very, old fashioned way.
This problem does not concern only CDPR and CP 2077, but almost every RPG or Action RPG there is. It seems we are far from the next gen RPG yet it has nothing to do with time, money, or technological issues. The problem is that creators are stuck with the old DnD mechanics, old concepts that have been replaced in many innovative PnP games now that seem to be completely ignored and unknown.
Another thing that do bother me is the attribute system : going from 3 to 20 makes a huge difference, and V can achive this in a matter of days, for several attributes...
It is of course too late to change most of this in the current game, but I do hope devs from every company will one day take the risk of doing something really new, focusing a lot more on immersion, striped of the old mechanics from the 80s.

CP 2020 had everything in place but CP 2077 decided to have looter mechanics with never ending gear progression...

 

[Don_the_brawler]

Having gear progression benefits players with low technical abilities but wanna have upgraded armor as they level up.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Guys, we've been suggesting all of this for years before the game launched. It's pointless, CDPR don't care, "the game got 9 and 10 on pc", it's literally perfect.

Quoting the studio head.

 

[Guest 4531988]

Hello guys and gals
Game was often told to be very immersive. In some fields it is but in others it's very far from being.

Don't you find it strange that a bandana or a baseball cap can have same amount of armor as an Arasaka armored helmet? I played PnP Cyberpunk 2020 and if you wanted to be bullet proof (there is no such a thing) you had to invest in armored clothes etc. If you wanted to look cool you could but no way you coud take a bullet and survive. In many games you have armor classes like light (stealth, evasion), medium or heavy (tank like) and each has it cons and pros. I don't like this kind of solution.

When it comes to weapon you don't have to buy anything (even ammo) in shops (they shoud go bankrupt) because everything they sell there is worthless. Instead you find enormous amount of gear from defeated enemies and what is more funny each has different statistics as if manufacturers had no any standard for their products. There are no different kinds of ammo like armor piercing, explosive or incendiary etc. So many simplifications...

Share your thoughts.

Try wearing an Armor Plated Thong to work for a few weeks first before you comment.

 

[-Nailes-]

I get the point, a bandana(I always get rid of those tbh) shouldnt realistically have the same armour value as a helmet. I partially agree. But then you'd get into a situation where you will always go for the bulletproof vests and helmets and I find that to be a bit boring. The result is also that you're wearing armour you dont really want to wear or looks ugly. I(or at least V) dont want to run around in Arasaka armour for obvious reasons even if thats the best available. At least this system allows me to wear gear that isnt corporate militarized and just go with what a Street kid or a Nomad would wear.
Besides, the armour values(unless we are talking about end game 1k combo's) arent as important as they seem to be anyways. Having 10-20 more armour is meaningless in the game.

 

[CS554]

At least this system allows me to wear gear that isnt corporate militarized and just go with what a Street kid or a Nomad would wear.

Yep. I read a long ago about how bikini chainmail is ridiculous and it was sort of trope as even I knew about it. Now we are all sort of all sort of wearing that, but I really like the freedom and wouldn't trade it for something else or liked to run back and forth my stash and that. In my head it's subdermal armor that really counts and I'm fine with that.

 

[hulkman2456]

Clothing should not be tied to the values. There should have been a hologram system in place. You upgrade the under lying tech. Than have it project a clothing item. So now, sunglasses having 80 armor makes sense.

 

[simon_brooke]

Sure it's a little strange, but this kind of system isn't out of the ordinary. You gotta think that most of this stuff is randomly assigned armor values. To go through and make a system that sorts clothes into categories (e.g. bulletproof items, street ware, and high fashion), then assigned characteristics and armor values, would be quite a big system for something that you only see in menu screens and in the mirror. Personally I like seeing all the odd ball costumes that V wears in order to stay as protected as possible.

OK, so my V doesn't wear odd-ball costumes. She wears mostly black and purple, because that's her taste. And although headgear has fairly useful armour stats she mostly doesn't wear it because... meh. It's better not to get hit in the first place.

But seriously, CD Projekt has put at least 1,500 person years into this game. Assigning reasonable stats to all the wearable clothes models – there aren't that many – would have taken one fairly junior not very technical person a week at most. I think having a bandana with an armour value of 30 is sloppy.

Post automatically merged: Feb 4, 2021

I don't know, tight fitting kevlar hot pants could potentially deflect bullets... Imagine the possibilities.

From your butt, maybe. They wouldn't do so much for your legs.