Let's talk Skellige - what's wrong with this faction?

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So, Skellige is popular in the pro-ranks, huh? Just browse the list there and see Skellige being used ALOT. This is just to say that I have reasons to claim that Skellige is overpowered. I'm also not the only one with this opinion. It seems generally alot of people seem to think Skellige is the best/most powerful faction

Monsters as a comparison is a faction that does not focus alot on damaging opponent units, so it's fairly reasonable to justify them having alot of high point units This also fits with the abilities of monsters (ex. thrive). Monsters feel quite focused and have quite tight archtypes. The same goes for all the other factions actually. But Skellige, no. This faction is all over the place with it's abilities.

Skellige was always good at damage, so it is really ok to give this faction alot of high point units too? I like to compare the damage potential of Skellige with that of Northern Realms, except NR have the order ability and slightly more damage per unit/provision. That seemed reasonable. But where are the giant NR units? But hey, NR is good at boosting! Sure, they are. But Skellige is also good at that and their engines for that is cheaper and easier to set up. Dang! Scoia'Tael is also good at boosting and damage! Yeah, really? It was never a damage faction like SK and NR, but sure, they had some increased damage recently. They also don't have boost engines the same way NR and Skellige have.

Anyways, my point is that Skellige have both the damage and the boost engine of Northern Realms, but they also have giant units! And their own archtype things. Doh. Where will it stop? Do you need to start copying Nilfgaard abilities too now for SK so that it misses no abilities that other factions have? Ooh, yeah, thats right, you already partly did that by making a SK version of Slave Infantry. What's next? Skellige spies? Skellige thrive? Skellige Deathwish? Skellige Consume?

I'm growing a bit tired of Skellige in this game. It seems they get the most attention, the most abilities and variety, despite being the DLC faction of Witcher 3. After playing Northern Realms for a long time, I realised this faction is terrible compared to Skellige. After moving to Nilfgaard I realized there is something wrong with NR. So why is NR getting so little attention and SK so much? I don't play Scoia'Tael, but I'm glad that faction finally got some attention. Nilfgaard is pretty good after it was fixed, maybe even the second best faction. It seems the popularity of Nilfgaard increased in the pro-ranks lists at least.

That leaves:
1st tier faction: SK
2nd tier faction: NG, ST, MO
3rd tier faction: NR

If the developers were to adjust this correctly, they would need to weaken SK to the level of NG/ST/MO and strengthen NR to the same level. Would it not be the better thing to have factions be pretty equally strong?

Discard, boosting, damage, self damage, tall units, graveyard/spawn, bloodthirst, berserk. Do skellige really need all that and then more? Can they not be more focused on fewer abilities like other factions?

So, as I see it, here are some "problematic cards":
Lippy: is it really necessary to have to re-evaluate the whole game, just for one card? Why was Witcher trio "removed"?
Vabjorn: do Skellige really need a giant killer in addition to all their other abilities? If yes, add bloodthirst 3 condition, reduce to 3 board points
Vildkarl: skellige was already powerful without alot of gigantic units, did big units really need to be added? Increase provisions, reduce power, remove order or delete
Ulfhedinn: this card is in the same category as gimpy gerwin, skeldon skaggs etc, but 7 provisions, unreasonable. 4 board points too. Increase provisions to 9
Arnvald: you just had to copy slave infantry and give this to Skellige also? Delete or change to something Skellige related instead
Disgraced brawler: same as above, did skellige really need more big units? 3 power, 3 damage, if bloodthirst 3 lock self, if not self destruct
Svalblod priest: is this card in every skellige deck for a reason? together with Haymaey and self damage, it creates the easiest and best engine in the game for low provision cards.
Damage the unit to the right by 1, then boost self by 1. With all the units that can absorb/benefit from self damage in Skellige, this makes more sense.


Anyhow, not all these cards are completely overpowered seen in isolation, but they contribute to making Skellige overpowered, and adjusting them could fix that and make Skellige more in line with the other factions. Maybe even remove something all together, like boosting or tall units. Before, Suirseach Veteran, Jutta and Olaf were the only big units, and they would often brick due to the condition. Vildkarl is so good that it is widespread to bring Renew just for him. A 12 power unit which heals itself and bring renew always? Pretty indestructible. Disgraced Brawler is overpowered in combination with other cards, besides, it is a big card to toss on the board, and Skellige don't need more big units. Monsters is suppose to be the faction of the big units, other factions should have them as an exception. Skellige now is the faction with the second most/powerful big units, maybe even as powerful as monsters or even more so. That's just not right.

Nor is Skellige.
 
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Nothing (not completely) is wrong with SK. They just have the strongest identity which makes their archetype standout. What the devs need to do is strengthen the archetypes of the other factions. There's also this thing called power to provisions ratio, it's best to judge and analyze a card through math, not feelings. Although i agree that there should be some minor power and provisions tweaks to some cards in SK.

Now to address your "problematic cards":
Lippy: This is by far the most unique and interesting ability in the game. Also, it's not entirely his fault that Witcher trio was nerfed, it's because of the presence of Witcher trio in almost all decks and same goes for the Horses.

Vabjorn: In order to analyze a variant card we need a constant target variable and lets assume that would be a 4 base power unit (majority of units have 4). So when the target is damaged Vabjorn will be at 8:9, not bad. He is at 6:9 minimum (or 5:9 if bricked) and 16:9 maximum. I think +1 or +2 provisions would suffice? but I would rather like him to be reworked to selfwound archetype to match his "cultist" tag

Vildkaarl: It's a 9:9 proactive card and has a drawback to activate it which is damage him by 3. Same can be applied to Goliat, it's a 10:10 card with a drawback. I also agree that his Order ability isn't needed. Nenneke is a 9:9, Milaen and Serrit is a 8:9 (+1 if you count the hidden value which is "removal value"), Toad Prince is a 9:9 (+1 removal value, also goes through shield so that's something). All of these are 9:9.

Ulfhedinn: Again with the constant target variable he's at 6:7. 5:7 minimum and 11:7 maximum. +1 provision would suffice even though i think his current state is just fine.

Arnvald: A lot of cards in the game are basically the same with just different conditions and applications. Not gonna list them all just browse through the deck builder.

Disgraced Brawler: It's a 4:5 and 7:5 if condition is met whereas Kaedweni Knight is a 4:5 and 8:5 if condition is met and Kaedweni Revenant is 4:5 and 7:5 when condition is met + it's an engine so it generates points over time. Harpy Egg, Rotfiend, and Bridge Troll is 8:5 when consumed. Maerolorn is a 7:5 max (depends on the target) Mangonel is a 6:5 or 8:5 if condition is met. Cards with conditions typically exceeds their provision cost. You're not gonna complain about those?

Svalblod Priest: "damage the unit to the right by 1, then boost self by 1" What kind of engine does 0 points per turn? Nerfing his base power to 2 or retain his 3 base power then nerf it to 6 provisions would fix the problem. Also if we are talking about cheap engines, look at Tridam Infantry that's a +2 per boost that can remove units on your board. Nekkers can generate up to 20 points if proc every turn. Vran Warrior, this guy is a machine gun with AQ. Trebuchet and Pikeman can generate up to 13 points + it gives you row control.

Every faction should be stepping forward, they can wait but it's not okay to ask them to step back just for others to catch up.
 
What abaut proactive Totem - auto included in every SK deck ?!?

Totem itself is a 10:10, nothing op about it. Auto-include? or do you mean degenerate net decks? For a creative person who enjoys crafting his own deck, there's no such thing as auto-include. His/Her deck varies on which archetype, leader, and cards would synergize on what he/she have envisioned.
 
Its not a healty situation when cards like Totem or Priests are auto included. Maybe SK needs more proactive cards then Totem, Harald and Ships.
 
Svalblod Priest: "damage the unit to the right by 1, then boost self by 1" What kind of engine does 0 points per turn? Nerfing his base power to 2 or retain his 3 base power then nerf it to 6 provisions would fix the problem. Also if we are talking about cheap engines, look at Tridam Infantry that's a +2 per boost that can remove units on your board. Nekkers can generate up to 20 points if proc every turn. Vran Warrior, this guy is a machine gun with AQ. Trebuchet and Pikeman can generate up to 13 points + it gives you row control.

Thanks for your post. There is much I could talk about in there, but I want to grab ahold of this one. Why? Because you say 0 engine. But in reality it is not at all, due to the different self damage benefit units of Skellige. Let's say you do this with Olaf, there you have a great engine which makes a huge amount of points despite the direct 0 result of Svalblod Priest by itself.

There are many units Svalblod priest can make up quite alot of points with with damage 1 and boost 1. Alot of berserk units etc. Also Vildkarl, totem etc. And that (don't remember name) that boost when adjacent units are damaged.

It's not only about pure math, it's also about synergy and totality.
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What abaut proactive Totem - auto included in every SK deck ?!?

It's a tempo+engine move, no? A bit like portal, but maybe better?
 
Thanks for your post. There is much I could talk about in there, but I want to grab ahold of this one. Why? Because you say 0 engine. But in reality it is not at all, due to the different self damage benefit units of Skellige. Let's say you do this with Olaf, there you have a great engine which makes a huge amount of points despite the direct 0 result of Svalblod Priest by itself.

True but what you are pointing out are combo pieces. What happens if you don't have those pieces? Priest will be stuck at 3:5 for the rest of the round. You should start analyzing at micro then macro.
 
Svalblod Priests are DMG 1 Boost 2, BTW... Said priest is also instant 5 points which makes him really hard to remove, unlike perhaps all the other engines in the game. Sure, he's vulnerable to tall removal, but as someone else pointed out - you have to think about at least 3 or 4 cards like him at the same time.

Add that dude that damages a friendly unit by half his power and damages enemy unit... this is insane synergy we are talking here.

In addition from having the best said synergies, SK also benefits a lot from low Provision Cost for their best cards. Deal 2 DMG and Spawn a 5 STR body for 5 PP is one of the best bronze cards out there. We are speaking removal here - this is huge.

.. and should we talk about the cheapest thinning in the game?

I think the devs should just stop doing anything with SK for a while (and also MS - they are in a pretty good spot too) and instead focus on the other factions, that are actually struggling.
 
True but what you are pointing out are combo pieces. What happens if you don't have those pieces? Priest will be stuck at 3:5 for the rest of the round. You should start analyzing at micro then macro.

Well, Tridam Infantry as you pointed out is a decent comparison. I think it might be the most powerful low provision card of the North. Yet this is also dependent on other cards to bring real value. And the value is big, not only boosting, but damaging at the same time. That's the same engine as Svalblod Priest with 1 damage 1 boost would be to say Olaf, or to Totem, or those units alone (4 prov x2) or even Vildkarl.

I think it's wrong that Svalblod Priest get double the value that it should get. That would be like Tridem doing 2x damage instead of 1x. The value from Tridem does not come from the boost itself, it comes from the 1x damage, and it is 1x, not 2x. Svalblod priest get 2x, in addition to whatever damage any relevant engine card can bring. Tridem absorb the value of another card, plus give 1x damage.

I do see it as both Micro and Macro actually. In regards to Svalblod Priest, I just explained the micro, and the macro I see in regards to Skellige as a whole, relevant engines and Svalblod Priest.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Svalblod Priests are DMG 1 Boost 2, BTW... Said priest is also instant 5 points which makes him really hard to remove, unlike perhaps all the other engines in the game. Sure, he's vulnerable to tall removal, but as someone else pointed out - you have to think about at least 3 or 4 cards like him at the same time.

Add that dude that damages a friendly unit by half his power and damages enemy unit... this is insane synergy we are talking here.

In addition from having the best said synergies, SK also benefits a lot from low Provision Cost for their best cards. Deal 2 DMG and Spawn a 5 STR body for 5 PP is one of the best bronze cards out there. We are speaking removal here - this is huge.

.. and should we talk about the cheapest thinning in the game?

I think the devs should just stop doing anything with SK for a while (and also MS - they are in a pretty good spot too) and instead focus on the other factions, that are actually struggling.
As much as I hate SK, I don't dislike Olaf and/or Knut. They are awesome cards synergizing with their archetype really well. Any card that does things on Order is vulnerable to getting locked. Even Vildkaarl is a good card on himself, but he gets huge value with SvalGod instantly (just like Brouver giving huge value through the jumping-and-attacking-elf).

But I (and even many pro streamers) think SvalBlod Priest is just too strong. Prior to the buff, "technically" he needed two turns to break even. He gets +1 point per turn "technically". But "technically" is rarely the actual case. He can synergize with so many cards that he is rarely a need-two-turns-to-break-even card. He can synergize with Harald's Pal and now he gets 6 points on deploy (getting 5 point body) and +1 Provision-To-Point on deploy. This is HUGE. An engine coming to board with a positive provision-to-point value. He can synergize with plenty of other cards and his -1 point through his damage is rarely rarely ever a -1 point. That buff was completely unnecessary and uncalled for. But I have a feeling that he will get nerfed this coming batch (but SK immunity may save him though, so, fingers crossed).

I agree that the 7 for 5 special card is just too strong. Probably it should spawn a fanatic and not the Bear Abomination. In its current state, I think this is just too strong a card.
 
well, in the last patch they "nerfed" sk by upping the provision cost of olaf by 1 and lowering the provision cost of knut by 1, but nobody plays just one of those, so in fact they did nothing to the combo... so maybe this patch they increase priest provision by 1 and lower the ship by 1 because the ship is not that good compared to other SK bronzes...
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
As soon as i saw the previous update notes, where Svalblod Priest got a +1base strength buff, i immediately knew he was gonna be super strong and dominate the meta, anyone who experienced the Beta GS meta knew this.

The problem was the svalblod priests on the previous meta were suffering because there was a lot of those 4dmg units running around, which shutted them down on deploy. By both nerfing those 4dmg units like Regis BL, and buffing Svalblod Priests, you made them OP. Now you need a gold removal to simply stop a bronze, which he can have 2, plus revives.

Another ridiculous card is Svalblod Totem. It's definitely auto-include on all SK decks. I know i put it in every single one of my decks post-CC. Its not just 8/10 pts for 10 provisions, its divided on 2 bodies, making it less risky, its a shield for damage, it has many advantages... Its provisions should increase to 11/12.

Other cards like Vabjorn or Arnvald that OP mentioned, i think they're fine. Ulfheddin might be a bit too strong for its prov cost, maybe increase 1 prov at least.
 
As much as I hate SK, I don't dislike Olaf and/or Knut. They are awesome cards synergizing with their archetype really well.

I agree. I like those cards for Skellige. Olaf was one of the few tall units they had, now they have too many. Olaf also as you say worked well with the archtype, Knut the same. None of them are overpowered that I can see at least. I doubt anyone would bring renew for Olaf. I guess Knut can be compared to Cyclops with less synergy (deathwish).

Only thing I wonder sometimes, is if cards should rather be stored in the graveyard in the fashion they were taken out, or if cards should be reset to their original state. It seems the game is mainly going in the second direction, after removing persistent locks. I was not a big fan of the change. But I think the game should decide either/or, not some middle ground.
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Regarding Svalblod, this is not about skill anymore, just about spamming the board with overpowered units. I always held Skellige to be a faction of choice for new players etc, but this takes the cake.

I certainly hope they will look into it at one point (and Skellige), and in my opinion, many of the units I mention are relevant in both cases.
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Ooh yeah, and disgraced brawler is typically the cheap unit that brings super value to Hjalmar. I didn't mention that specifically, but it is one of the issues with that unit, aside from it being high points.
 
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Problem is that this faction now has too many big units, too many "Skeldon Skaggses" (high damage) and too many abilities (yes, I'm going to again whine about creating a Skellige Slave Infantry).
 
Problem is that this faction now has too many big units, too many "Skeldon Skaggses" (high damage) and too many abilities (yes, I'm going to again whine about creating a Skellige Slave Infantry).

You do realize that "big units" are just units whose points are concentrated to itself?

Reinforced Trubechet = Alba Pikeman
Nauzicaa Sergeant = Lyrian Cavalry
Drummon Shieldmaiden = Mahakam Volunteers = Wild Hunt Riders
Svalblod Ravager = Cintrian Knight
Treant Boar = Botchling/Lubberkin
Knut the Callous = Cyclops

The list goes on...
 
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Reinforced Trubechet = Alba Pikeman
Nauzicaa Sergeant = Lyrian Cavalry
Drummon Shieldmaiden = Mahakam Volunteers = Wild Hunt Riders
Svalblod Ravager = Cintrian Knight
Treant Boar = Botchling/Lubberkin
Knut the Callous = Cyclops

That's not at all similar to the Slave Infantry that was copied and given to Skellige in the last update. As if Skellige needed more abilities.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
That's not at all similar to the Slave Infantry that was copied and given to Skellige in the last update. As if Skellige needed more abilities.
SK converting humans to Bear is lore friendly and makes a lot of sense. SK is a Bear and Sea (and many other things) faction. This card which converts an ally to a Bear (and his description) is from the game W3 and I like that card. Even Slave Infantry converting other units to Slave Infantry seems OK. So, these two cards sharing the same ability is not a big concern and makes sense for both the cards. But why is he 6P and Slave Infantry 7P? I can say that SK card has a condition and doesn't synergise much with other cards, where as Slave Infantry synergises with other cards and can convert any card (for example, a Cow Carcass or a 1 point Spy who was going to aid Regis).

This SK card is the least of the problems with SK IMHO.
 
That's not at all similar to the Slave Infantry that was copied and given to Skellige in the last update. As if Skellige needed more abilities.

Like @rrc said, Arnvald requires a damaged unit to get value while Slave Infantry doesn't and have more flexibility. Slave Infantry being a bronze card is also better because it bring more utility and value for Vreemde and Vrygheff. Reinforced Trebuchet and Alba Pikeman are literally identical (4 base power, 5 provisions, and melee/range row control), not gonna whine about them?
 
SK converting humans to Bear is lore friendly and makes a lot of sense. SK is a Bear and Sea (and many other things) faction. This card which converts an ally to a Bear (and his description) is from the game W3 and I like that card. Even Slave Infantry converting other units to Slave Infantry seems OK. So, these two cards sharing the same ability is not a big concern and makes sense for both the cards. But why is he 6P and Slave Infantry 7P? I can say that SK card has a condition and doesn't synergise much with other cards, where as Slave Infantry synergises with other cards and can convert any card (for example, a Cow Carcass or a 1 point Spy who was going to aid Regis).

This SK card is the least of the problems with SK IMHO.

It's not a problem per se (the card on its own is not overpowered or anything), but symbolic of a larger issue. Personally, despite other completely overpowered Skellige card, this Slave Infantry copy is the card of Skellige that I despise the most. It's a symbol of giving Skellige more and more abilities of other factions and overpowering the faction. It's a symbol of "Skellige favouritism" or "ooh, that's a nice ability, Skellige should have that too".

The problem I have is that Skellige is all over the place and have no concept like the other factions, or well, it has some concepts, but has strayed widely from these and just have too many abilities from other factions. Now Skellige perhaps even have more and better large units than Monsters, which is absurd! While at the same time they have the destructive ability and boosting engines of Northern Realms, and on it goes.

The last update in regards to Skellige was horrible, made the faction even more overpowered, which is why so many people in the pro-ranks seem to play this faction most often (as seen in the lists). Skellige units are now so overpowered that it would be stupid not to bring renew and warrior renew. Hjalmar has a very cheap target in the new huge and unecessary Skellige card "disgraced brawler", which alone is overpowered, but even more so with Hjalmar. The new synergies added to Skellige are insane. Self healing giant, how great, destroy half of him, and take out another unit, then heal. Geee... How many Skeldon Skaggses should Skellige have before someone realise this has become problematic?

Before the update, Skellige had some tempo issues in some cases, which was reasonable for a faction that can do so much damage. But now you need what, 5 Leo and Geralt to deal with this faction? And 3-4 Peters to rescue any (big) units you may bring?

And what about Bloodthirst 3, 2 etc. This is a Skellige thing, then why not restrict more cards to this condition?

Someone said Knut is not an issue, and I agree. On it's own it is not an issue, but with Vildkarl Knut has become a massive issue. I don't think atm that I have any issue with any of the cards in Skellige aside from those I mentioned in my first post.

And yeah, despite all, the least powerful of those is the one I have the most issue with, just because it symbolises everything that is wrong with Skellige.
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Like @rrc said, Arnvald requires a damaged unit to get value while Slave Infantry doesn't and have more flexibility. Slave Infantry being a bronze card is also better because it bring more utility and value for Vreemde and Vrygheff. Reinforced Trebuchet and Alba Pikeman are literally identical (4 base power, 5 provisions, and melee/range row control), not gonna whine about them?

Slave Infantry is better, ofcourse. That's not my concern. My concern is that this ability should have never been added to Skellige in the first place. The technical bits of the card (Arnvald) etc is not the issue here. The issue is that it was added in the first place. Arnvald should be changed to something Skellige related instead, and I don't mean "lore" as you or rrc said, I mean concept wise.

Skellige didn't need more abilities, it needed fewer (a more focused concept) and it certainly did not need even more big units (Olaf and Jutta is ok and enough).

The only card I had any doubts about including in my first post was Lippy. And I was actually simply asking. I don't know the full game consequences of adding Lippy, but I hope CDPR does. I also hope CDPR does not have to change/adjust other (good) parts of the game, just because they added Lippy.
 
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rrc

Forum veteran
It's not a problem per se (the card on its own is not overpowered or anything), but symbolic of a larger issue. Personally, despite other completely overpowered Skellige card, this Slave Infantry copy is the card of Skellige that I despise the most. It's a symbol of giving Skellige more and more abilities of other factions and overpowering the faction. It's a symbol of "Skellige favouritism" or "ooh, that's a nice ability, Skellige should have that too".
CDPR shows "SK favouritism" in so many different ways, this is not one of those IMHO. If anything, this SK card makes more sense and rightfully own the ability. It is lore friendly. The card depicts what happened in the backend and is fantastic if you are a lore fanatic and played W3. Even the description is spot on.
The problem I have is that Skellige is all over the place and have no concept like the other factions, or well, it has some concepts, but has strayed widely from these and just have too many abilities from other factions. Now Skellige perhaps even have more and better large units than Monsters, which is absurd! While at the same time they have the destructive ability and boosting engines of Northern Realms, and on it goes.
You can't be more wrong. SK has super strong super coherent archetypes. That is what makes SK as strong as they are now. No other faction has such strong synergies. BloodThirst, Self-Damage, Beast, Discard (and Pirate/Ships - the only archetype which has been flushed fully). They have super cheap cards which bring a lot of value due to synergy with their archetype (and due to the blatant "we love SK" attitude from CDPR).
The last update in regards to Skellige was horrible, made the faction even more overpowered, which is why so many people in the pro-ranks seem to play this faction most often (as seen in the lists). Skellige units are now so overpowered that it would be stupid not to bring renew and warrior renew. Hjalmar has a very cheap target in the new huge and unecessary Skellige card "disgraced brawler", which alone is overpowered, but even more so with Hjalmar. The new synergies added to Skellige are insane. Self healing giant, how great, destroy half of him, and take out another unit, then heal. Geee... How many Skeldon Skaggses should Skellige have before someone realise this has become problematic?

Before the update, Skellige had some tempo issues in some cases, which was reasonable for a faction that can do so much damage. But now you need what, 5 Leo and Geralt to deal with this faction? And 3-4 Peters to rescue any (big) units you may bring?

And what about Bloodthirst 3, 2 etc. This is a Skellige thing, then why not restrict more cards to this condition?

Someone said Knut is not an issue, and I agree. On it's own it is not an issue, but with Vildkarl Knut has become a massive issue. I don't think atm that I have any issue with any of the cards in Skellige aside from those I mentioned in my first post.

And yeah, despite all, the least powerful of those is the one I have the most issue with, just because it symbolises everything that is wrong with Skellige.
Yes, last patch brough two tall units to SK. The totem and Vildkaarl (Probably Vildkaarl should be 10 provisions?). NR got the Prince (and the super versatile 11P Queen), MO got Protofielder (10 for 10) and Detlaff Higher Vampire who is a high temp with help from consume cards. ST got Oak (high tempo) and WoB+Fauve (super costly but which brings 2 engines on board). NG got Vivene for high tempo and the reuse-leader card is very strong, but is on order and is not as consistent and viable as other factions.

All faction had got their fair share of good cards (regarding costly gold cards) from CC, and SK got two high tempo proactive cards (proactive with SvalBlod). I hate SK but some of your points are not logical even to my most SK hating mindset.
 
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